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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.
Hrm, having TL'd guns, +1T, double the movement range, Turboboost move bonus, Hammer of Wrath I10 autohits, Relentless (particularly coupled with the other advantages here), and Jink on SM bikes over their infantry counterparts for something like 6ppm was pretty ridiculous, Eldar just abused it even more by slapping Scatterlasers on everything

You're saying that Bikers are OP to the Tactical Marine. This is a model and unit entry that has been garbage for YEARS. Ask yourself if this comparison makes sense. People were still taking Scouts after all.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

The Mattler wrote:
Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?" The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem. Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we?

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQ T3, 5+, W1
MEQ T4, 3+, W1
TEQ T4, 3+, 5++, W2
BEQ T5, 3+, W2
LVEQ T6, 3+, W6
MVEQ T7, 3+, W12
HVEQ T8, 3+, W12

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

[Incidentally, can anyone tell me how to make a table on DakkaDakka without this awful formatting? The coding that works on 40kOnline and TheWarmaster40k doesn't work here.]

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone. I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn. If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...


Scorpions and Banshees aren't really good for comparing against Spears, because they're both really bad units to begin with.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





The Mattler wrote:
With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone.


They are more than twice the price for the same number of models.

The Mattler wrote:
I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads.


Sweet emperor's golden jewels I hope so for that cost.

The Mattler wrote:
Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.


You probably should since if they're firing at anything they're in charge range.

The Mattler wrote:
If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...


This is a squad that must perform in multiple phases to be effective for it's points cost. Almost anything that expensive either has to be hyper-specialized to earn it's point in a single phase (Dark Reapers, Predators, LRBTs, Berzerkers, etc.) or it has to be positioned and used in such a way that it's earning it's points within multiple phases (Terminators, Shining Spears, Bikers, etc.), at which point it is taking all the associated risks attached to being used in such a way.

As has already been discussed, even mediocre CC units will destroy Spears, any sort of even passable melee units should destroy them (Xeno, how you aren't destroying these things with Genestealers is fundamentally blowing my mind, seriously? A single Patriarch would probably kill the entire squad.). Anyhow, we'll see, if they're as amazing as everyone claims I expect I'll see truckloads of them at LVO, so who knows.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
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Dakka Veteran




I doubt you'll see truck loads of only spears but it seems pretty obvious to me that you'll see them + reapers at a significant percentage of the top tables (if only because reapers are almost as criminally undercosted )

I am curious as to what the meta will shift to at the LVO with enough timing having passed for people to digest the new hotness (CWE and Nids).

Also are you guys running new CA at that tourney? Let me know how many OP Gorillaman lists you see as my bet is he's been priced out of the competitive meta but let the rest of this forum tell it and he needs moar nerfs.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





bananathug wrote:
I doubt you'll see truck loads of only spears but it seems pretty obvious to me that you'll see them + reapers at a significant percentage of the top tables (if only because reapers are almost as criminally undercosted )

I am curious as to what the meta will shift to at the LVO with enough timing having passed for people to digest the new hotness (CWE and Nids).

Also are you guys running new CA at that tourney? Let me know how many OP Gorillaman lists you see as my bet is he's been priced out of the competitive meta but let the rest of this forum tell it and he needs moar nerfs.


We've been running ITC rules amongst my friends since August really. Effectively, yes, we've been running CA-style the whole time. So there is no automatic going first. They've been running that way in all of their tournaments as far as I know.

They'll be using all the new point values for sure. I just got a look at the tournament pack and the missions are similar to SCO, so not sure they're really using a lot of the mission rules or the open war deck or anything like that though.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Fafnir wrote:

Scorpions and Banshees aren't really good for comparing against Spears, because they're both really bad units to begin with.

What if I add Wraithblades (charging!) with Ghostswords? It's tricky to get them into combat, but they do hit hard...or do they?

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
WBGS (melee)*****15.75***23.63***29.53***23.63***31.50***47.25***47.25
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

This is what the Aeldari get for efficient dedicated assault units in the Codex, so that's why a comparison between them makes sense (i.e., opportunity cost). It doesn't mean that I think Banshees, Scorpions, Wraithblades, or even Shining Spears are somehow ideal melee units.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

They are more than twice the price for the same number of models.

You misunderstand. These are points per wound numbers, which measure efficiency, so they remain constant regardless how many copies of each examined unit you have. A unit of 5 Spears has exactly the same PPW as 1 Spear.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Mattler wrote:
I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads.

Sweet emperor's golden jewels I hope so for that cost.

Another point you misunderstand. If one 31pts Spear does more as much damage when shooting than 5-6 shuriken from Banshees or Scorpions that cost 68-82pts, that's a situation where the Spear is just much more efficient. Cost doesn't matter per se; what matters is what you get for a given cost.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Mattler wrote:
Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn.

You probably should since if they're firing at anything they're in charge range.

I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What I meant was that if the Spears got into combat and didn't kill their target, so chose to leave combat the following turn because their shooting is better than their non-charging melee, they would still be making as large a contribution as equal points of Banshees, Scorpions, or Wraithblades. They can't charge on those turns, though, without Feigned Retreat.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

This is a squad that must perform in multiple phases to be effective for it's points cost. Almost anything that expensive either has to be hyper-specialized to earn it's point in a single phase (Dark Reapers, Predators, LRBTs, Berzerkers, etc.) or it has to be positioned and used in such a way that it's earning it's points within multiple phases (Terminators, Shining Spears, Bikers, etc.), at which point it is taking all the associated risks attached to being used in such a way.

Nope, the Spears compare favourably with most of the units in the Codex (not just the melee units) in either the Shooting or Fight phases (albeit usually with less range and more movement). Even units like Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters have trouble keeping up with them in a single phase, let alone two. There are even ways to circumvent their relatively (compared to Reapers and CHs) low reach, especially Warriors of the Raging Winds.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

As has already been discussed, even mediocre CC units will destroy Spears, any sort of even passable melee units should destroy them (Xeno, how you aren't destroying these things with Genestealers is fundamentally blowing my mind, seriously? A single Patriarch would probably kill the entire squad.). Anyhow, we'll see, if they're as amazing as everyone claims I expect I'll see truckloads of them at LVO, so who knows.

Mediocre anything can do significant damage to Aeldari non-wraith, non-vehicles units. That's how it's supposed to be, since the Aeldari lean toward damage output instead of resilience. Like the rest of 40k, it mainly dependent which unit gets the first strike. On average, it only takes 3 Spears to kill a Patriarch in one Aeldari turn if they catch him out (or other units shoot the squads he's hiding in), with 4-5 Spears pretty much guaranteeing the kill. If the Patriarch charges the Spears, he can reliably kill 4-5 of them too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 00:45:05


 
   
Made in us
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Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.


so in your arguments you are assuming not just spears, but approximately 270 points of support at the minimum successfully activated? That's indescribably . Most 'decent' units from any codex will do quite well if you saturate them with that much support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 05:03:44


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





No that's fine, the majority of damage there came from losing the stealers, wich are as glassy as a glasscannon could be. When you face such alpha strikes, don't you think that you should deep strike your stealers? Starting them on the board will result in a disaster no matter the opposing list. It could have been 3 aggressors from Ravenguard and the result would be the same with a 111 point unit.
If instead of stealers in front you had hormagaunts it would have been much different and the Tfex is another really good target for lances. The problem there is your list, your brought the perfect targets for him. In the average nid list they would still do a lot with that much support, but more around 300 points of damage.

That said, without a battle report i have no way to get a clear idea of what happened, so this is all theory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 06:07:34


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.


it still shouldn't be accounted for when making direct unit to unit comparisons, as the presence of them are not guaranteed
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





WindstormSCR wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think any other army can sink that much support into one unit. That's what happens when you get twice as many psychic powers as anyone else.


it still shouldn't be accounted for when making direct unit to unit comparisons, as the presence of them are not guaranteed


You should account for them, it's part of the faction rules.
When you look at Marines you always consider a lot of rerolls.
When you look at AM you always consider commands.
When you look at Nids you always consider synapse.
So, when you look at Eldar you must account for the fact that they have 18 powers at their disposal.

Comparing models with each other without context is fruitles, look at the DA warlord trait for example: Fearless in a 12" bubble. It's strictly superior to the same traits of other marines, and yet it sucks, why? Because DA are already fearless. Give that trait to AM and see if there are any differences. Faction context is key.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






CWE Just won the Warhammer 40k Heat 2, anyone know what the list was?

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

I think it was pretty much Dark Reaper spam.

Which makes sense, since Dark Reapers are ridiculous, and in ways that Spears couldn't ever hope to know.
   
Made in nl
Sneaky Lictor




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I don't understand how people (especially Nid players) don't just screen against them. Sure they're fast but a carpet of 80 bodies can literally eliminate potential venues of attack until your turn.


This deserves a response I think, I was wondering about this too. Spears can fly, but nine of them require a decent landing zone. Don't give them one near anything important. With msu Spears you probably won't block all of them, but you could try to split them up by only providing enough space for one or two units to land. Screens are a necessity this edition in my games, although I'm still getting used to that myself.

As an aside, don't nids have excellent anti-psyker mechanisms in both Shadow in the Warp and in taking small Kronos(?) detachments? This doesn't cover the board on turn one, but it should help.

@TwinPoleTheory: I really appreciate how you consistently use math/facts to base your arguments on, even when repeatedly confronted with arguments that do not. You have definitely given me some more insight in the unit, thanks for that!
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




One counterpoint to all of these points is that if the spears fail their charge they are toast, so your threat ranges are all way too big since you simply can't risk taking a charge if you have less than a 75% chance to make it. Considering these "scary shining spear" squads are 312pts each, that's a TON of points at risk,

Scallywag wrote:

One unit can move 16", advance 6" and charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a a threat radius of 24" to 34" (Warriors of the Raging Winds).


More like a threat range of ~30", this is easily prevented by simply having some screening units in near base contact with the units you want to protect, they can fly over models but still need to maintain coherency and must have a spot on the table. Don't forget this costs 2CP to do as well.

Scallywag wrote:

Another unit can move 16" twice and then charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a threat radius of 34" to 44" (Quicken).


Quicken has a 50% to go off and perils insta-kills the warlock so that's anything but a given. Also that warlock casting quicken has a whole 2 wounds at T3, he's not too hard to take care of.

Scallywag wrote:

You can also deep strike up to two units 9,1" away from the enemy. With the Saim-Hann Attribute they have a 50% chance to get into combat (Webway Strike).


That's shining spear suicide. Also easily EASILY countered by proper deployment preventing them from being 9" away from non-screening units. It's basically deployment 101, come on.

Scallywag wrote:

Dark Reapers are good, but Shining Spears deal way more damage against (almost) all targets, are so much more resilient and have an insane mobility. A 4++ is fantastic for a T4 2W model that only costs 31 points can be buffed with up to -3 to hit and a 5+++ on top of that. People in your meta "failing" to use them, doesn't make Shining Spears less overpowered.

That unit is so broken, it is not even funny.

You can even deep strike a unit and cast Quicken on it for an almost 100% guaranteed charge turn 1 (using Concordance of Power, Seer Council and/or a re-roll if necessary).


First off is shining spears are so broken compared to dark reapers how come basically no-one is taking them in competitive tournaments? How come everyone is fielding dark reapers?

Simple: The spears get to kill one big target of their choice and then they are gone, there is no reliable way to protect them after their first charge. They are worthless in the fight phase if they're charged and if they fall back they can't charge making them overcosted windriders.

Dark reapers on the other hand have an insane range, the exarch doesn't even need LoS, and they do damn near the same damage as the shining spears can do at 48" range (36" on the exarch).

Quicken deep strike combo is very expensive costing either 3CP or 1CP and a relic. There's no reliable way to make it work with a seer council since, how are you getting that farseer up there? To get the re-roll you'd have to use 3CP to deep strike them both and even after all that, it's a 50% change, 80% with the re-roll relic but you've spent a massive 3CP and a relic to do this for a unit that's going to die next turn (including the warlock). That's simply not worth it, Eldar have better ways to slaughter a target of their choice.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




This thread seems to prove that some people really believe online forums somehow affect GW's FAQs. SS are good, every codex is lacking in internal balance to one degree or another. But calling them OP is ridiculous, no matter how many times you repeat the same claim or back it up with artificial math simulations.

Reapers OP, probably. Hemlocks, maybe. But SS are just a backbone unit. Most of the number crunching in this thread is painfully artificial. There are probably 40-50 units in the game that could use some power reduction in order to provide better balance, SS are just one. Hopefully GW will stay on top of it, but not by monitoring online B threads.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






WindstormSCR wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
May i ask how that unit totals 400 points of damage to a nid army? I really can't see that.
9 Shining spears average 4 wounds with shooting against a tyrant and 5 more if all can get in melee with him. Probably they can take down a couple of Cfexes, but it's fine, he sacrifices 300 points of units, powers and CPs for 200 points of damage? Fine! The only dangerous situation comes if he catches your genestealers with the catapults and you don't have a Venoms or Malans to protect them.

Shining spears are a tremendously powerful unit against gunlines, but against something that can return punches they are not that spectacular.

First of all - he deep strikes in with stratagem - then he casts doom, and fortune. Gets off protect and then gets a command reroll to cast quicken.
He moves to just outside of 1 inch of my front unit of geensteelers - in which they wiped out an entire unit of 20 geensteelers with just their shuriken cats while guided and doomed - I think they only had 18 kills from that 2 came from a wave serpent. 218 Points
Exarch and one spear put 4 wounds on a dakkafex That's roughly 57.5 points
The rest of the unit 5 had range on a tyranofeex with acid spray They did 4 wounds to that. Roughly 55 points there
Then rest shot at warriors which they killed 1. 27 points
In assault they split up after the carnifex that was wounded and a unit of warriors they kill 2 warriors - My broodlord heroically intervened killing 3 bikes. 27 + 20+22 = 69 points
And the exarch kills the canrifex on his own - 57.5 points

484 points on the first run against them. It hasn't gotten much better since.


so in your arguments you are assuming not just spears, but approximately 270 points of support at the minimum successfully activated? That's indescribably . Most 'decent' units from any codex will do quite well if you saturate them with that much support.

They are required HQ choices - the whole army benifits from doom and two of the powers are just to keep them alive for the next turn. Literally the only offensive spell that was solo on the spears is guide - and they don't really even need that - another spear would be more effective - you just can't take more than 9.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 14:49:08


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 14:51:08


 
   
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Spoletta wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.



If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.


This is a good point, though the same can be true for other buffers. Bobby G, for instance, wouldn't be as big a deal if he didn't have half his army castled around him.
   
Made in us
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Spoletta wrote:
Guide counts as 3 more spears, but for the rest i agree with what he said.

Eldar naturally excel at ultrabuffing a single unit. Shining spears are not OP, they just come in big squads so they benefit a lot from their faction, like dark reapers.
If shining spears were 3 model units you wouldn't see them probably.

Also, reducing the squad number of dark reapers is probably the best change for them, if they actually turn out to be OP.

Their PPD already proves they are OP. It's already been demonstrated they get their laser lance for pretty much free. That is OP. It would be kind of like if terminators got their power fist for free. That would drop them down to like 27 points. Then they would be really OP too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 15:12:04


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.
   
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What are we calling a squad here? 5 Knights vs 5 Spears? 5 knights vs 10 spears? 5 Knights vs 3 Spears?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in it
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Kdash wrote:Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.


Black knights are quite comparable.
A unit of 8 is more durable (t5) because they have no disadvantages when advancing for a single CP so they will always sport a 4++
When they shoot they unleash hell on a level that makes shining spears pale (3 damage per shot HURTS). More than enough to bring down one razorback and half without any kind of support (which DA have plenty of) at range 18". On the other hand, in assault Shining spears are much better than the BK. Both have a stratagem to disengage and assault again. In the end between the two i don't see a clear winner.

Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
craftworld_uk wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
What i don't understand is how the spears are considered anti-horde. They are clearly anti elite/anti tank.


Because with twin shuricats and lance fire before the assault, a 6 strong Spear unit can still comfortably cut down twenty odd mini beasts a turn.


For a glasscannon unit that is quite underwhelming. Genestealers do much better than that, but they are not considered anti-horde and are more resilient than spears.

Geenstellers at the very minimum require to ether
A.)Have a crappy army trait so they can buy a cheap taxi in the form of ravenours - I think thats 90 poitns.
B.)Take a Trygon which is 168 points
C.)Take a swarmlord which is a 300 point 12 wound character (hey at least he fills an HQ requirement)

Geens can't really afford adrenal glands - so without the swarmlord they are looking at a 9 inch charge.
So we are already over the cost of the spears with the ravenour delivery which also costs a command point and crappy army trait. (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way over the cost of the spears (240 + 168 = 408) with a trygon (Looking at about a 50% chance with a command reroll on the charge)
We are way way over the cost of the spears with a swarmlord (300+240 = 540) - (pretty much auto first turn charge if you deploy them on the table and use oppertunistic advance and are kraken) However - you are exposed to first turn alpha - and the swarm lord is exceptionally easy to kill for his cost.

None of these strategies are really very good. The best way to get geenstealers into combat is to take LOTS of geenstealers. The only thing geenstealers outperform SS on anyways is anti infatry against low armor save targets. SS make geens look like trash and geens are one of the best units in the game. It's kind of hilarious.

Why don't I account for farseers in the equation? because the spears don't need the farseer to do their job. Siamhan spears (which are actually the best spears) can start on the board and charge turn one in almost any game with 0 support. Support makes them better for sure but that is true of everything.




I don't know what you are talking about, Genestealers to traverse the table need only a single cp and no support. Welcome to Kraken.
Also, Jormungard is the second best trait in the codex, the fact that you define it as crap tells me a lot.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Kdash wrote:
Ok, so we’ve had the Ravenwing Black Knights info come through now, so, time for a bit more comparison (as I said I would do so!).

As it stands, RBKs now cost 43 points more than a SS squad (presuming you brought the Star Lance). For that difference, you gain +1 S, +1 T, -2” movement an an invuln vs shooting only if you advance.
Not looking too good for overall “bike” balance.

So, let’s look at weapons. There is no question that the RBKs have a huge range advantage over the SS. When outside of the 6” Lance range, the RBKs will always out damage the SS vs MEQ, however, within 6” the SS win. However, vs Primaris, RBK again have the advantage when over-charging their plasma. However, even when RBKs over-charge, SS still have a slightly better PPW stat.

Another “win” for the SS?

Finally, combat.
Both units have the same number of attacks – 2 on the basic models and 3 on the “sergeants”. I honestly thought this would be closer, but, apparently, I under-estimated the -4 ap. Quiet frankly, RBKs seem to “mathematically” suck vs MEQ when compared to SS, EVEN WHEN you set the SS to str 3. Essentially, SS are 4 times better than RBKs on a PPW stat.

I thought, we might start to see some balance here, but, when looked at overall, without buffs etc, SS are just plain better.

Right - as I was saying before. Even in subsequent rounds of combat in CC. A str 3 ap-4 2d weapons is very good. -4 AP on a close combat weapon is literally relic level and it's not like the bikes have to stay there - they can just fly away and nuke a unit with shoot 28 inches away and charge again with a stratagem.



If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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