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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/30/codex-drukhari-preview-stratagemsgw-homepage-post-3/

Pretty cool we have a Vect strategem but no rules for Vect. Anyways - this stratagem is immensely powerful and quite possibly will shut down entire armies ability to function.

For example - if playing against 2 fire prisms you basically auto win - Fire Prisms are fething terrible without linked fire. Or Tau marker light stratagem.

I'm glad they made a stratagem like this but it is TOO GOOD. 2-5 dice roll is a joke - it should be a 4+ to cancel and on a 6+ not refund CP and it should cost 2 command points. This just seems too powerful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 16:18:51


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

Read the whole thing. It isn't finished, but there is a whole list of restrictions including "cannot be used on pre-game stratagems", iirc. Also doesn't it cost 3CP?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Read the whole thing. It isn't finished, but there is a whole list of restrictions including "cannot be used on pre-game stratagems", iirc. Also doesn't it cost 3CP?

True. still though - outside of pregame stuff plenty of armies are reliant on a stratagem to function. Tau for example. It's just too busted to knock it off on a 2+. Also why are pregame stratagems immune to denial? Pregame stratagems already get the stupidity of being allowed to be used more than once.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 16:19:37


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Read the whole thing. It isn't finished, but there is a whole list of restrictions including "cannot be used on pre-game stratagems", iirc. Also doesn't it cost 3CP?

True. still though - outside of pregame stuff plenty of armies are reliant on a stratagem to function. Tau for example. It's just too busted to knock it off on a 2+. Also why are pregame stratagems immune to denial? Pregame stratagems already get the stupidity of being allowed to be used more than once.


Perhaps this is an attempt by GW to make people carefully consider their use of stratagems instead of just throwing them around willy-nilly? Honestly I could see more of this popping up - perhaps an Agents of the Inquisition stratagem in a future book for Imperium.

As for why not pregame stratagems: because it would be too broken. Stratagems used during the game are important but losing one isn't crippling. Completely removing the opponent's ability to use ANY pregame stratagems is army breaking. Can you imagine if one use of Agents of Vect completely removed the Raven Guard's ability to infiltrate or the Daemons deep strike stratagem?
   
Made in us
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For 3 CP? I don't see an issue.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Also why are pregame stratagems immune to denial? Pregame stratagems already get the stupidity of being allowed to be used more than once.


Because you'd totally bust Daemons from functioning as an army.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Read the whole thing. It isn't finished, but there is a whole list of restrictions including "cannot be used on pre-game stratagems", iirc. Also doesn't it cost 3CP?

True. still though - outside of pregame stuff plenty of armies are reliant on a stratagem to function. Tau for example. It's just too busted to knock it off on a 2+. Also why are pregame stratagems immune to denial? Pregame stratagems already get the stupidity of being allowed to be used more than once.


Perhaps this is an attempt by GW to make people carefully consider their use of stratagems instead of just throwing them around willy-nilly? Honestly I could see more of this popping up - perhaps an Agents of the Inquisition stratagem in a future book for Imperium.

As for why not pregame stratagems: because it would be too broken. Stratagems used during the game are important but losing one isn't crippling. Completely removing the opponent's ability to use ANY pregame stratagems is army breaking. Can you imagine if one use of Agents of Vect completely removed the Raven Guard's ability to infiltrate or the Daemons deep strike stratagem?

You would think that a strategem that is supposed to represent tactics would work against these kinds of stratagems specifically. Makes less sense that you'd be able to stop coordinated fire from tau for example rather than assume (know) that raven gaurd will be trying to sneak up on them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Also why are pregame stratagems immune to denial? Pregame stratagems already get the stupidity of being allowed to be used more than once.


Because you'd totally bust Daemons from functioning as an army.

Okay so it's okay to deny some armies core abilities but not others?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 16:34:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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Falls Church, VA

Pregame stratagems being denied can actually break armies.

Ingame stratagems being denied merely makes things harder.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




And that d3 mortal wounds to all psychers w/in 12" strat for 2cp...

As if grey knights weren't bad enough (my templars would kill for this strat)

3 cp is a significant investment to keep your opponent from using a strat. If it didn't go off on a 2+ it wouldn't be powerful enough and at 2 cp w/ a 4+ I don' think it would cost enough to keep it from being used more than 1-2 times per battle.

Most armies show up with 8-12 CP. Usually want to spend 4-5 cps on your own army so with 8 cps the 3 cp strat is only getting used twice while the 2cp one could be used 4 times...

Hell a calidus assassin adds +1 cp to a strat spent in the first round on a 4+ and that's the whole reason I run one in my army. Those first turn strats are super important to a lot of armies. This strat is way more powerful than that.

DE are going to be good (RIP my vanilla marines)
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/30/codex-drukhari-preview-stratagemsgw-homepage-post-3/

Pretty cool we have a Vect strategem but no rules for Vect. Anyways - this stratagem is immensely powerful and quite possibly will shut down entire armies ability to function.

For example - if playing against 2 fire prisms you basically auto win - Fire Prisms are fething terrible without linked fire. Or Tau marker light stratagem.

I'm glad they made a stratagem like this but it is TOO GOOD. 2-5 dice roll is a joke - it should be a 4+ to cancel and on a 6+ not refund CP and it should cost 2 command points. This just seems too powerful.


At 3 CP and only useable once per battle round - you're getting maybe 2 uses out of it.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Pregame stratagems being denied can actually break armies.

Ingame stratagems being denied merely makes things harder.

I get your point but it easily could have been worded better to only deny the first use of a pregame stratagem. Not make them entirely immune - like I said - they are already able to be used more than once which is kind of busted already.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/30/codex-drukhari-preview-stratagemsgw-homepage-post-3/

Pretty cool we have a Vect strategem but no rules for Vect. Anyways - this stratagem is immensely powerful and quite possibly will shut down entire armies ability to function.

For example - if playing against 2 fire prisms you basically auto win - Fire Prisms are fething terrible without linked fire. Or Tau marker light stratagem.

I'm glad they made a stratagem like this but it is TOO GOOD. 2-5 dice roll is a joke - it should be a 4+ to cancel and on a 6+ not refund CP and it should cost 2 command points. This just seems too powerful.


At 3 CP and only useable once per battle round - you're getting maybe 2 uses out of it.
We might be seeing DE armies running around with 12-15 command points for all we know.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote:
And that d3 mortal wounds to all psychers w/in 12" strat for 2cp...

As if grey knights weren't bad enough (my templars would kill for this strat)

3 cp is a significant investment to keep your opponent from using a strat. If it didn't go off on a 2+ it wouldn't be powerful enough and at 2 cp w/ a 4+ I don' think it would cost enough to keep it from being used more than 1-2 times per battle.

Most armies show up with 8-12 CP. Usually want to spend 4-5 cps on your own army so with 8 cps the 3 cp strat is only getting used twice while the 2cp one could be used 4 times...

Hell a calidus assassin adds +1 cp to a strat spent in the first round on a 4+ and that's the whole reason I run one in my army. Those first turn strats are super important to a lot of armies. This strat is way more powerful than that.

DE are going to be good (RIP my vanilla marines)

No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 16:52:44


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




3CP is extremely prohibitive - and the fact you can use it once per round, it'll be fine.

This game needed more ability to interact with your opponents turn, be it movement/shooting/fighting/ability usage.

As far as tournaments go, we'll see if they limit Dark Eldar to 3 detachments, limiting the amount of CP they'll get from Patrol spamming by a lot. Plus, games don't really last beyond turn 3-4 anyways, so you'll only get a handful of uses out of this stratagem at best.

Lastly, we'll see how the FAQ shakes out for this, but - based on the wording, enemies will likely end up GAINING command points from getting countered - which is a big deal. 3 base (refunded), plus 5+ roll per point spent//when a stratagem is used.

It's honestly not going to be as punishing as you think. Is it good? Absolutely - and this kind of interaction is something the game needs more of; abilities to counter others.
   
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Hmm... What armies does this stratagem completely shut down, exactly? The first to come to mind for me is Blood Angels - I doubt that army is viable at all without its 3d6 charge stratagem.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

No kidding - orbital bombardment just went from bad to unplayable vs dark eldar. It's okay - Ravengaurd can still infiltrate most their army.

This doesn't seem right at all. The expected effect of Agents of Vect is that the stratagem doesn't happen, the DE player is down 3 CP, and their opponent's situation is unchanged. I feel like "your opponent loses 3 CP" is generally way better for you than "pay 3 CP to do some mortal wounds". Like, because Orbital Bombardment isn't great it's not a great target for denial.
   
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How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.
   
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In My Lab

tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...


They get bonus CP for lots of Patrols. Not sure exactly how many, off the top of my head.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.
   
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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 JNAProductions wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...


They get bonus CP for lots of Patrols. Not sure exactly how many, off the top of my head.


Spoiler:


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 17:31:15


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I generally play marines so I don't really have any stratagems that I'm worried about being countered lol
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

The suggested max for tournaments in matched play is 3.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Ghaz wrote:

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.


If we're going to discuss how balanced something is then we're going to do it within the context of matched play. It doesn't make sense for us to talk about all the options outside of that all the time, because there are way too many.

   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





 Kanluwen wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

The suggested max for tournaments in matched play is 3.

I've never played with someone who didn't stick to that "suggested" limit and I'm not going to start now.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.


Source?

It seems from what GW has hinted at that it was intended for them to have tons of small detachments running around as their own little fighting forces (no overall unifying command element). The 3 detachment "rule" is 1) not a rule, but a guideline, and 2) enforced in non-GW tournaments, which are going to have to review that specifically because of the new Drukhari mechanic.

Regardless, I like the flavor it adds. A stratagem that screws with stratagems. Something we haven't seen, yet.

3 CP is really pricey, especially since there's that 5 out of 6 chance that the CP by the opponent isn't spent and then the 1 in 6 chance that those 3 CP do nothing (unless you spend ANOTHER CP to reroll that).

I really like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

The suggested max for tournaments in matched play is 3.

I've never played with someone who didn't stick to that "suggested" limit and I'm not going to start now.


Even if it invalidates the basic function of their codex/army? That's classy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 17:38:34


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

The suggested max for tournaments in matched play is 3.

I've never played with someone who didn't stick to that "suggested" limit and I'm not going to start now.

I don't know how tournaments are going to respond to this. It seems pretty reasonable to me to adopt a rule like "3 DE Patrols only take a single detachment slot", since clearly the codex is pushing you to bring lots of small detachments. But, yeah, if you hold them to a 3 detachment limit they're going to struggle to get a lot of CP.
   
Made in us
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Dionysodorus wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How they get 15? Brigade plus battalion isn't easy to fit...

6 Patrols and a Haemonculus warlord trait would get you 12-15.

Your max is 3, which is 7 CP. I'm 99% certain that the 6 patrol rule is just to ensure Drukhari scales into Apoc properly.

The suggested max for tournaments in matched play is 3.

I've never played with someone who didn't stick to that "suggested" limit and I'm not going to start now.

I don't know how tournaments are going to respond to this. It seems pretty reasonable to me to adopt a rule like "3 DE Patrols only take a single detachment slot", since clearly the codex is pushing you to bring lots of small detachments. But, yeah, if you hold them to a 3 detachment limit they're going to struggle to get a lot of CP.


.... are they? how hard would it be for them to just run a brigade?

what do they gain or lose for doing so. if you are doing a butt load of patrolls then you are already taking a bunch of troops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 17:43:39


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:

There is no rule that limits how many detachments you may take in an army, just a suggestion for organized events.


If we're going to discuss how balanced something is then we're going to do it within the context of matched play. It doesn't make sense for us to talk about all the options outside of that all the time, because there are way too many.

And again, that is not a Matched play rule. It is a suggestion for an organized event. So in the context of the Matched play rules, a player can indeed bring six detachments.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Desubot wrote:

.... are they? how hard would it be for them to just run a brigade?

I'm not sure but this might literally be impossible while still getting traits, without resorting to FW for a Heavy Support. The units are split into 3 different kinds of subfaction -- <Cabal>, <Cult>, and <Coven> -- and lots of units are only one or the other. So you have exactly 1 kind of HQ that you can bring in a <Cabal> detachment, 1 kind of Troop, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 17:45:32


 
   
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Belgium

Well the stratagem still has a 1/6 chance of failing so don't worry so much. And if your whole army is based around the use of a single stratagem there's a problem far deeper than Agents of Vect. I think it's an awesome and fluffy stratagem that for once reflects the brillant mind of an experienced strategist, all armies should have a codex as elaborate as the Drukhari one I believe. It seems they really enjoyed designing it and I think it's a shame early codices (namely AdMech and SM, or GK) didn't have a team as passionate to work on it.

Playing 6 Patrols means playing 6 taxes, as of now the consensus is that Drukhari HQs are just a burden, they have no mobility and as much as they are pictured as "great fighters" in the reviews they can get stomped by a Tech-Priest Dominus in a single round. I'm really hoping they give some mobility options in the codex, but as they didn't previewed it today there's not much chances that it happens now.

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 Rolsheen wrote:
Ah yes the mythical world of Cyraxus
Where GW hold an annual bonfire festival to burn the hopes and dreams of all Ad Mech players
 
   
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Purifying Tempest wrote:
Even if it invalidates the basic function of their codex/army? That's classy.

7 CP is a perfectly reasonable amount. That's how much I usually play with with my CSM or Necrons. Why do you feel entitled to more?
   
 
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