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This looks hella fake to me, just like all that Eldar stuff about hoods and antennas. 3W Chosen?? The WB and BL army traits don't make any sense and do not resemble anything that is 9th Ed design.
Eldenfirefly wrote: At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn.
So oddly enough, I actually think having CSM troops at 60 points a unit is a benefit for us now. Cheap and not being too much of a point tax is how I see the value of good obsec troops now. With the game being so lethal as it is now. 1W, 2W on a model doesn't matter much really.
I honestly am not that optimistic about the way the rumors are going with the new codex. No amount of new rules are going to make our basic CSM troops good at killing stuff. They are just basic troops. Just keep them cheap is what I want now.
Its the fast attack units and elite units that will matter. Why not heavy support? Well, short of daemon engine lists, I have come to the realisation that no amount of buffing in our heavy support will make them S tier. The key reason being we are not the shootist faction. We have never been known to be. GW simply will not buff our heavy support units to the shooting level of Tau. And while Daemon Engines are fluffy, I want more because our codex is called codex CSM, it is not called codex daemon engines.
So it will be the FA and Elite choices where we will get a lot of our power from in the new codex. But if its true we are losing all the cult marines, then, we basically just have our base terminators, chosen, warp talons, raptors and bikes. (Are possessed in or out? I have no idea).
So yeah... I really have no idea how they are going to go with this new codex. And I kind of worry.
Its kind of ironic that with Custodes, GW was willing to give that army literally everything, with zero weakness! Its fast (cos jet bikes), super tanky, shoots hard (cos salvo), hits hard and even can have 4++ to mortal wounds. How can GW allow an army that can literally do everything so well?
Like numerous armies have T3 (fragile), some are slow (DG). Some are bad in melee (Tsons, IG and Tau). What did Custodes give up? seriously. They literally have zero downside...
The problem is that Chaos Marines are basically just Space Marines with a different coat of paint, curved blades and sprinkled tails and tongues. They're supposed to all be 10,000 year old veterans who have bathed in the Warp, learned from deamons and from mighty warp entities. They're supposed to be blessed with powers, dark gifts and abilities that make even the abilities of normal astartes jump up to 11. Everything has been enhanced beyond what even the emperor's genetic gifts could bestow. Strength, Endurance, Speed.
But they aren't portrayed like that. Their squads should be smaller, but way more killy and tough when compared to their cousins. They should be able to cary a lot of flexibility with their tactics because they have the training of Astartes, but also the blessings of the Dark Gods.
Sort of the way I see it is something like this.
Legionaries should be capped at 5 models per unit. Something like this for a statline: M: 6 WS: 3+ BS: 3+ S: 5 T: 5 W: 3 A: 2 Ld: 9 Sv: 3+ I think having an inbuilt 5+ or 6+ FNP to illustrate that they are protected not only by their armor, but the warp energy that they've gained is a must. Some testing could be done to see if either 5 or 6 is too little or too much, adjustments can then be made. They should be able to take lots of different weapons, having very strange but cobbled together loadouts. Instead of a "Boltgun" as a weapon, it probably needs to be something like "Warp-fire Boltgun" and either remain at S4, but gain a point of AP or move up both in AP and S as it's a weapon that is fueled by warp energy. Five Legionaries should easily equal 20 regular Astartes.
Terminators might come in three models per unit. Their statline could be: M: 5 WS: 2+ BS: 2+ S: 6 T: 7 W: 5 A: 4 Ld: 9 Sv: 2+ As the Legionaries, test the 5-6+++ Idea, but make sure they keep their classic 5++, consider testing it at a 4++.
There are many other types of rules that could be considered. Marking a unit of Legionaries with the mark of Khorne could enhance their WS: to a 2+ and could grant the whole unit an additional attack. A mark of Nurgle on the Terminators could increase their FNP to a 4+++ or grant T8, making them very hard to kill without access to Plasma or Melta strength weapons. The Mark of Slaneesh on either unit could add +1 Movement and grant +1 advance and +1 Charge as well. I much prefer the idea of marks DOING something other than just opening up stratagems.
This is really rough, but I think you can see what I mean. They need to feel like their own unique faction, rather than just Copy-Paste Astartes with Horns and Tentacles. Until we get GW on this line of thinking, the army is going to be treated as the second rate cousin that it has been for many editions now.
And that leads me to this statement.
Custodes are, what CSM should be. Whenever I see Custodes being played I can't help but think this is how the CSM should play. Not cookie-cutter-copy-paste Astartes. But as absolute U N I T S. Terrifying in battle, towering over even Primaris, brimming with eldritch energies and empowered through dark prayers, foul magics and "gifts" of the Dark Gods they now Serve.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/22 08:25:44
No offense, but this is some poster on a website I've never heard of before. How do we know this poster didn't make all of that up? Where is their credibility on display?
No offense, but this is some poster on a website I've never heard of before. How do we know this poster didn't make all of that up? Where is their credibility on display?
How verify?
Welcome to the wonderful world of rumours, Togusa - the whole point is that we can't know whether this is correct or not until the book comes out.
And I've never seen a statement start with "No offense, but..." that wasn't intended to be offensive.
It's hard to tell sometimes, on a Reddit thread I asked about one of the leaks last fall and people got really offended because "How dare I question the great leaker." When in reality I hadn't done much of anything with 40K in almost a full year and didn't know anything at all about the leaks at that time.
But I was unsure if this was the person who leaked all the Eldar and Tau stuff or someone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/26 09:36:09
Togusa wrote: Has there been any word on Chaos Bikes yet? Potential for a new kit? New rules?
They're in the "new models" rumor list.
Ah, good to know!
I know there are probably some other Chaos Marine models that need a more dire update, but I really hope that we do get new Bikes. I have been wanting them for some time and the current models are just too stumpy and out of proportion for me to want to pick them up.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm hoping that we get a new terminator Lord soon. I like the old model, but it's definitely showing its age.
Yeah agreed. I'd prioritise a power armoured lord ala Autarch/Canoness as the priority though
It would be really nice if it remained a dual build kit with a Terminator Sorcerer as well.
With options? Preferably!
But the new pricetag will probably be insane.
Some options would be fine, but honestly I'd prefer to have the game condensed. For gameplay, nothing is worse than 1-2 alpha choices and 10 useless bits that never get even passable rules.
A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
Memnoch wrote: This codex is starting to sound like more of a mess with every release of rumours and leaks.
Replace "codex" with "edition" and you have 40k in a nutshell right now
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Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I want GW to just increase how many points a Guardsman spends to get a flamer instead of going full Kharn on unit options.
I can't help you there as I don't understand the math of competitive wargaming. If they can do that and it will actually matter, then go for it. But I suspect given all the complaints about points over the last 2-3 years, that just isn't a viable solution. Look at the mess 40K points are in now because of all the push back. Points are everywhere and it's really hard to tell if a book is current or not anymore due to that.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The bolter thing for the new Primaris was really baffling for me. When they first came out, everyone swore it was the rifle that was best. Then a new codex and everyone wanted the LMG variant. I don't think anyone ever took the heavy ones because the squad needs to be mobile. It's just weird as heck because the variants all felt like an amalgamation of different ideals all slapped onto one kit because reasons.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
This is absurd. Balance vs options isn't an absolutist binary that leads to a free for all (let alone S8 flamers on guard, which isn't even an 'options' problem). That isn't even vaguely in the realm of anything, and isn't going to get there because chaos lords keep access to the standard array of rifles, pistols and melee weapons.
Balance isn't some magical mystery of the ages- its about being 'good enough' to go on with. Something they're willing to do with most codex releases (though some of the recent errors makes me think they've abandoned part of their process, as there is a huge difference between this faction wins 5% more often and 20% more often), and twice over with loyalist marines, but when chaos wanders around, suddenly it all becomes an issue. Options disappear and everything (bizarrely) becomes even more regimented.
----
@arcanum - same. Accursed weapons would be fine if the whole edition was operating that way from the start. That they're inconsistently applied externally and internally is just bewildering.
Clearly it isn't when the rules writers haven't been able to do it. The rules for Warhammer games are an afterthought, it's pretty clear by this point that they do not put any reasonable level into writing editions and are only fishing for the next book sale.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
I agree 100% with the sentiment but this kind of stuff needs to be consistent across the edition.
I like the idea of the accursed weapons for terminators and chosen ( I think that's what they are called) in principal but either:-
-Not every faction will be like this going forward
-10th ed chaos codex will go back to a mess of similar but different melee weapons
We dont need intercessors to have 15 different types of bolters that are only defined by a logo on the magazine.
The best part of the Accursed Weapons is not having to deal with the dumbass "build what's only in the box" rules.
Is this you unironically defending the removal of options?
This is me explaining what I *think* the GW rules team is doing, and what they *might* give as an answer as to why they're doing it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/31 20:01:30
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
You haven't seen a Jump Lord, in eight years. Not one. Only foot lords, and Terminator Lords. BULL. You're a day early, buy a calendar.
No, I haven't seen anyone in any of my play areas use Jump marines outside of the loyalist kind when smashers were all the rage. I've never actually seen mutilators or Warp Talons outside of box art either. It is possible there were some at LVO when I was there, but I didn't see them either. As for what I have seen, yes, it's mostly been terminator lords or the special characters. For the last four years I've been the only CSM player in my local meta as well, meaning if I don't run it, no one at my store is either.
I'm also just concerned that we won't have all that much time to actually play with the chaos marines, if 10th edition is coming next year. There's a little birdy that's talking about 10th ed being a simplification and return to indexes.
What's interesting to me is that the new Horus Heresy has me much more excited than the prospect of what no doubt will be yet another mediocre book for Chaos. If by chance there is some abuseable over powered thing in the book like what we have seen with the last few books, that will still be rather sad.
Starting up some Iron Warriors for the 31st Millennium just seem so much more exciting!
I'm also just concerned that we won't have all that much time to actually play with the chaos marines, if 10th edition is coming next year. There's a little birdy that's talking about 10th ed being a simplification and return to indexes.
What's interesting to me is that the new Horus Heresy has me much more excited than the prospect of what no doubt will be yet another mediocre book for Chaos. If by chance there is some abuseable over powered thing in the book like what we have seen with the last few books, that will still be rather sad.
Starting up some Iron Warriors for the 31st Millennium just seem so much more exciting!
I definitely understand this sentiment. I prefer the 40k Chaos models quite a lot, and I'm always excited about the potential of more Chaos Space Marine models.
But, I am indeed excited for 30k. The chance to play a big army game that isn't updated every 3 years that might actually be relatively balanced and more friendly for narrative players has me pretty thrilled.
But Sisters of Battle and Chaos Space Marines are my 2 favorite 40k factions. So, I hope they just get treated well, if not from a rules standpoint, then at least from a model standpoint, and so far that aspect has been pretty spot on for me. Just a handful of things I want updated.
I've been playing Chaos for three editions now and they just never seem to ever be right. I would love for them to be treated well, but from what I've been told they haven't been treated well since their fourth edition book, which is widely considered to be perfect.
2022/06/20 04:06:06
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Unfortunately, this is end of the road for me and 40K Chaos Marines. This book looks DOA.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
2022/06/20 08:15:45
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah! That'll show them! Give GW money!
What do people not understand here? You give them nothing. It is the only language GW understand.
...I don't care about 40K and haven't for quite some time. This was the nail, which convinced me to bail!
HH on the other hand, in our area has a nice group of mature people playing almost daily. A better rules set, better looking marine models, and a lot more options for those folks who prefer narrative play.
2022/06/20 19:52:24
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Tastyfish wrote: I've seen some suggestions that this book was due out some time ago as it's also missing traitor guard, and misses out some of the 40k options the new daemon prince has (it's the old model in the book).
I wouldn't be shocked. All of the HH stuff is marked 2021. Putting two and two together, I surmise that HH was due out last summer or early fall when the original leaks occurred. We know from the leaker that they had a 12 month back up on releases so it's likely chaos and Eldar were also late to the party.
2022/06/22 22:05:23
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
2022/06/22 23:06:19
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
Don't tempt me now.
Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.
2022/06/27 19:27:40
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
I think some of the issue comes from how GW decides what to do with their IP.
Take for example Shroud Runners from the recent Eldar release. They're a very nice kit. The theme fits very well within Siam-hann, or within Alaitoc. The rules are good, the models are good looking.
But who was asking for that kit? Who ever said "We need Rangers on bikes?"
No one said that. People were asking for Plastic Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions though. Those models are very hotly sought by Eldar players.
For some reason, GW decided to do something new, rather than do a second set of Aspect Warriors.
Another example that comes to mind is MK6 armor in Heresy.
It's great that it's in plastic. But who was asking for it to be upscaled? There was literally nothing wrong with the old scale, and now we have two marks of plastic armor out of scale with the third and most recent.
I do not personally believe that there is anyone at GW who's job it is to ensure continuity among model designs. From what I've heard discussed in various places of the web, is Sculptors make a thing, upper management decides if they like it and back it's production, rules team makes rules for it, fluff team writes it. The problem here is that the sculptors have basically no QC/QA person that they have to answer to. Which is why we have lots of primaris vehicles lacking the signature Heavy Bolters of the Space Marine legions, in favor of having lots of antiquated and frankly out of place looking stubbers everywhere.
Some people are upset with the guns for the new LoV dwarves. Some people are upset specifically with the rules, no jump pack lords as you're all discussing, where as three years ago we got a random named character jump lord legion locked and not really useable by other legions.
I guess what I'm saying is, there just doesn't seem to be a top-down decision maker at the company who ensures consistency in design. Thus there is a lot of flip-flopping.
2022/07/04 08:58:51
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Yes, weapon options in many cases are more restrictive than before, but excessive options go hand in hand with bad balance. If you wanted the army not to be bottom of the barrel then you kind of have to accept the loss of some of those options as a casualty of the efforts to better balance the rules
30K Liber Traitor book says otherwise.
They eviscerated what Chaos in 40K has. All I needed to see was that nearly every Chaos player in my local meta posted their armies for sale since Friday. Only three out of 12 are keeping their army. Actions speak louder than words.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/07/04 09:01:15
2022/07/20 19:40:15
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
2022/07/20 19:51:58
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
That's basically a nothing statement, "stuff changes" yeah that's correct but it's also not very useful.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good.
Do you have some insider information that confirms this codex is actually strong? Seems like a clear dud. I don't think "sure you can't play with your miniatures any more, but the book is strong I think" is a good trade.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Again, where are you getting this good codex thing?
Things we know for sure:
-It's a codex
-Some models are no longer usable
Things we definitely don't know:
-It's so strong that you'll forget all about those models you can't use any more
I lost:
Chaos Lord with lightning claw and combi-bolter
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
Daemon Prince warp bolter and fleshmetal exoskeleton
4 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
My friend lost:
5 Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords
5 Khorne Berserkers with chainswords and chainaxes
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack
2 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
If your argument is "hardly anything was lost" that's just not correct, and if your argument is "it's a good codex though" I would ask how is a codex that takes away your gak a good codex, if your argument is "it's a competitively strong codex though" that is both yet to be seen and irrelevant to me wanting to use my games workshop models that I paid for and spent hours building.
The essence of what 40K rules are, is changing. For the worse or better I cannot say. But it sounds to me like what a lot of you want, and would thrive in is Heresy, which has endless amounts of customization for your models.
2022/07/20 19:57:08
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
That's a good sidestep.
Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."
Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/20 20:03:53
2022/07/20 22:05:10
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
That's a good sidestep.
Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."
Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.
It's both? If people feel the products are crap people will look elsewhere, but the owner can't complain about not selling the books if they don't make an effort to encourage it.
You guys are misinterpreting what I am saying. The owner wasn't complaining about not being able to sell books. There is no discussion about complaints about lost sales. She was saying that books aren't selling and that some customers have outright stated they don't wish to pay for an inferior product, which is the issue with the codexes. I am using this as evidence that some peoples minds have changed in the last year on Codexes and then attempting to see if this is localized, or if we might start to see larger groups of folks abandoning buying new codexes over fears that they will continue to be not worth the money.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
I certainly hope so. Maybe GW will finally realize how ridiculous their update pattern is and do something to break the cycle.
That is my feeling as well. I've taken to to write to GW and tell them about issues that I feel are quite negative with regard to their books recently. I'm hoping if they start to pay attention and (hopefully notice sales drops) that it will sprue further change in their codex/book model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/20 22:06:26
