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Voss wrote:
Personally, I scuttled my plans I started forming when the model reveal happened, and just want the rest to come out so we can be done with it. They screwed the chaos pooch again, let the empty daemon book come out and we can move on towards guard (which hopefully isn't as restricted by subfactions as it looks) and stripped down world eaters (still hope that won't be as bad, but I know its baseless) and hopefully a quick squat dump. Then see if there are any signs of hope on the horizon.

Here too. I was all geared up for a Chaos Marine army with loads of the new cultists and just a few marine units, but that's definitely not happening now. I wanted to grab the new Chosen too, if only to gear up some champions for the regular squads. Looking at the stuff now just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The sooner we are on to the next army release, the better.

EviscerationPlague wrote:


Not even an equivalent amount of points LOL. Just admit you're wrong when you completely forgot Rubrics can do it and for far cheaper.

Do you even read?

That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer

Like seriously? Open your eyes, but well done, have a pat on the back for "winning" an internet debate.

Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

There is no way to respond to this properly without blowing rule 1 to smithereens. Maybe take a closer look and see if you still feel that way about "choas players".

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
man choas players really are salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... really are salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... no reason

What???

How can you come into a 178 page thread and say that with a straight fething face???

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
man choas players really are salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... really are salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... salty for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... for no reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
... no reason

What???

How can you come into a 178 page thread and say that with a straight fething face???

Leroy Jenkins.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

The issue is that the codex actually makes many people's models/armies unplayable. Which means for them it absolutely isn't a "good codex with some good rules". But I think you know that, and you're just trolling. But go ahead, prove me wrong. Explain exactly how a codex that invalidates large swathes of people's collections should be considered "good" by those said people.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:


Not even an equivalent amount of points LOL. Just admit you're wrong when you completely forgot Rubrics can do it and for far cheaper.

Do you even read?

That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer

Like seriously? Open your eyes, but well done, have a pat on the back for "winning" an internet debate.

Well at least you can admit it wasn't done for any balance reasons.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

Between squatting, datasheets which make no sense, more datasheets that make even less sense, 97 stratagems but not even capable of making custom traits, "mere mortal-itis" after introducing a cultist command squad and mutants... and playable? Considering the sorcerer is now what the MoP last edition was, basically an afterthought and not worth the HQ slot opportunity cost, CSM still not being worth it, etc etc et all.

Is that really what you want to state?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:


Not even an equivalent amount of points LOL. Just admit you're wrong when you completely forgot Rubrics can do it and for far cheaper.

Do you even read?

That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer

Like seriously? Open your eyes, but well done, have a pat on the back for "winning" an internet debate.

Well at least you can admit it wasn't done for any balance reasons.

Nah it's based on whats in the box, I'd still stand my assessment that a brick of terminators doing stupid volumes of auto hits out of deepstrike is hard to price fairly though. I fully expect rubrics to remain the only unit that can pull it off (that I can think of off top of my head) come 10th ed.

Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

'not trolling' and summarizing what's lost as 'a few weapon options no one took' is incompatible.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

No one took he says, lemme see, the last competitive builds included all combi-plasma (which you can't do anymore) terminators.
Jumppacks were vital for functioning buffs and beatsticks so sorcerer and lords are now deadweight.
Legionaires if they showed up in 10 man blocks when you wanted to make them work as red corsairs were always specialised with 2 heavies or specials of the same type which now also doesn't work anymore..

Hmmm chosen still suck due to lack of specialisation and this dex made that somehow worse.
Hmmm... but sure 97 stratagems will fix all of the above..

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?

As soon as GW finally allowed it i decided with the at the time new sculpts to make my dreamwarband centered around CSM... yeah, not one of these squads is now legal anymore and if i want to field my PM i need to buy another codex aswell

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Glances at 30 Terminators with double lightning claws

Riiight.

Also I'm still bloody upset GW basically lied yet again when they said the 'Dex will include Traitor Guard. But I guess that's just what I get for trusting WarCom

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.

That's basically a nothing statement, "stuff changes" yeah that's correct but it's also not very useful.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good.

Do you have some insider information that confirms this codex is actually strong? Seems like a clear dud. I don't think "sure you can't play with your miniatures any more, but the book is strong I think" is a good trade.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Again, where are you getting this good codex thing?

Things we know for sure:
-It's a codex
-Some models are no longer usable

Things we definitely don't know:
-It's so strong that you'll forget all about those models you can't use any more


I lost:
Chaos Lord with lightning claw and combi-bolter
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
Daemon Prince warp bolter and fleshmetal exoskeleton
4 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists

My friend lost:
5 Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords
5 Khorne Berserkers with chainswords and chainaxes
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack
2 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter



If your argument is "hardly anything was lost" that's just not correct, and if your argument is "it's a good codex though" I would ask how is a codex that takes away your gak a good codex, if your argument is "it's a competitively strong codex though" that is both yet to be seen and irrelevant to me wanting to use my games workshop models that I paid for and spent hours building.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?

Finally, we've found the target demographic for the original metal Chaos Terminator boxed set. People who only take one of each weapon.

I hope hotsauceman comes back to say "just kidding I WAS trolling you LOL" after everyone collectively ganged up on him.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I hope hotsauceman comes back to say "just kidding I WAS trolling you LOL" after everyone collectively ganged up on him.

Well, since he got fed so well by the reactions to his first round of trolling, I don't see why he wouldn't try and shake a litle more free...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

because they lost options, even if the remaining bits are highly playable that's annoying to chaos players. especially as MANY long time CSM players have many loveingly converted models that are now no longer in the codex. I can very much understand the annoyance here.

Even if we accept that these changes might "in the long run be good, and that whats THERE is great" it's still something that is going to jutifiably be rage inducing.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I hope hotsauceman comes back to say "just kidding I WAS trolling you LOL" after everyone collectively ganged up on him.

Some pull this card after being called out on a clueless post--to save face, not admit being wrong, etc.

Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing

So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

He’s not completely wrong though. The codex is a decent codex that can run some effective and fluffy lists. On the flip side, GW just made some “weird” decisions that seem unnecessary, except for pissing off existing players. Legionaries can still pick 2 weapons that fit a similar role, but was it necessary to not allow duplicate weapons (only 2 per squad)? No, it’s a weird choice when allowing duplicate are is in no way game breaking.
Could they have kept the JP resin lord in circulation to allow the dataslate? Yep, sure could, but they didn’t.
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

So, in theory he’s correct that it’s a decent codex game wise, but incorrect that people are whining for “no reason”.

That sounds made up.

One actual problem is that CSM books are in short supply.

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.

 ph34r wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.

That's basically a nothing statement, "stuff changes" yeah that's correct but it's also not very useful.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good.

Do you have some insider information that confirms this codex is actually strong? Seems like a clear dud. I don't think "sure you can't play with your miniatures any more, but the book is strong I think" is a good trade.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?

Again, where are you getting this good codex thing?

Things we know for sure:
-It's a codex
-Some models are no longer usable

Things we definitely don't know:
-It's so strong that you'll forget all about those models you can't use any more


I lost:
Chaos Lord with lightning claw and combi-bolter
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
Daemon Prince warp bolter and fleshmetal exoskeleton
4 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists

My friend lost:
5 Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords
5 Khorne Berserkers with chainswords and chainaxes
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack
2 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter



If your argument is "hardly anything was lost" that's just not correct, and if your argument is "it's a good codex though" I would ask how is a codex that takes away your gak a good codex, if your argument is "it's a competitively strong codex though" that is both yet to be seen and irrelevant to me wanting to use my games workshop models that I paid for and spent hours building.

The essence of what 40K rules are, is changing. For the worse or better I cannot say. But it sounds to me like what a lot of you want, and would thrive in is Heresy, which has endless amounts of customization for your models.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing

EC don't fight first against the whole army. The fact that you don't know this is a perfect example of why this book is not actually good. Army rules are cool but very, very inconsistently applied, most of the actual power comes from stupid wombo combos, and of course, yeah, lots and lots of invalidated loadouts. Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.

Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.

That's a good sidestep.

Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."

Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.