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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing

MoS gives you fight first if you buy it for everyone, not just being Emperors Children.

Did you buy the codex?

Fights First is still really good given their a 4 ways to force fight last on an opponent.

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.

That's a good sidestep.

Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."

Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.

It's both? If people feel the products are crap people will look elsewhere, but the owner can't complain about not selling the books if they don't make an effort to encourage it.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.

It's called "trying to give you an out". But, since you didn't take it......

Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing

Do you actually expect people to be happy about trading the use of the models and units that we've had for literally decades for gamey like stratagems and "combos"? Am I supposed to be happy that the HQs that are literally one of the defining elements of my Legion have been hurled into the obscurity of Legends for the pathetic trade of a garbage Legion trait and some cheap parlor tricks?

And good rules? Do you actually expect any Night Lords player whose seen what we were given by the Horus Heresy writers just weeks before this dumpster fire was released to consider this mess "good"? Please. You can't sell a cheap, shoddy knockoff product when you've got the real thing with all of the options sitting right next to it on the same shelf, for the same price. No one will want your out of date rotten tripe when fresh steak is available for the same $$$.

You can't convince a long term CSM player that this book is "good" when we know that they can do better, because we have seen them do better. And not only years in the past, but recently, and in a game that is alive and well.

This book is just another in a long series of slaps to the face from gw to long time Chaos players. And many of us have had enough of them. We thought you were trolling because we couldn't believe anyone could "seriously" have such an opinion. But I guess you do, though I still don't understand how.

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

I certainly hope so. Maybe GW will finally realize how ridiculous their update pattern is and do something to break the cycle.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing

MoS gives you fight first if you buy it for everyone, not just being Emperors Children.

Did you buy the codex?

And you're still limited by who you can give MoS to, even in an EC army. Again, that's one of the obvious reasons why the book sucks even to people who are new to Chaos (in a similar way to why people complained about 9e Admech). For people who have existing CSM armies, you'd have to be pretty damn lucky to not be impacted by the loadout restrictions. (I know I'm preaching to the choir here, to be clear)

Dudeface wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.

That's a good sidestep.

Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."

Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.

It's both? If people feel the products are crap people will look elsewhere, but the owner can't complain about not selling the books if they don't make an effort to encourage it.

You guys are misinterpreting what I am saying. The owner wasn't complaining about not being able to sell books. There is no discussion about complaints about lost sales. She was saying that books aren't selling and that some customers have outright stated they don't wish to pay for an inferior product, which is the issue with the codexes. I am using this as evidence that some peoples minds have changed in the last year on Codexes and then attempting to see if this is localized, or if we might start to see larger groups of folks abandoning buying new codexes over fears that they will continue to be not worth the money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.

Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.

I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?

I certainly hope so. Maybe GW will finally realize how ridiculous their update pattern is and do something to break the cycle.

That is my feeling as well. I've taken to to write to GW and tell them about issues that I feel are quite negative with regard to their books recently. I'm hoping if they start to pay attention and (hopefully notice sales drops) that it will sprue further change in their codex/book model.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.

They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.

This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.

How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.

That's why people call you a troll.

 bullyboy wrote:
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.

All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.

 Togusa wrote:
the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.

Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?

Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.

All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.

Classic GW codex update change. Every edition something changes be it optimal unit options or available unit options.

My Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad went from being allowed a 2 weapon upgrades in a 5-model squad to requiring a 10-model squad when the 9th Edition Codex rolled out. I'm sure you remember when Skitarii and Wyches went from being allowed 3 special weapons to 1 of each of the 3 special weapons in their 9th Edition Codex.

In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).

 alextroy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?

Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities

So, in your opinion/interpretation, would the Lord on Jugger gain +1S when charging/charged/heroically intervening from the Mark of Khorne?

 alextroy wrote:
In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).

No one's saying Chaos was singled out. And "Yeah but it happened to everyone else!" doesn't make the complaints any less valid.

 alextroy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?

Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.

All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.

Classic GW codex update change. Every edition something changes be it optimal unit options or available unit options.

My Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad went from being allowed a 2 weapon upgrades in a 5-model squad to requiring a 10-model squad when the 9th Edition Codex rolled out. I'm sure you remember when Skitarii and Wyches went from being allowed 3 special weapons to 1 of each of the 3 special weapons in their 9th Edition Codex.

In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).

No, it wasn't, and I've covered this multiple times. But fine, we'll do it again:

1: The Chosen kit is fully kitbashable with the Legionaries, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Those combi-weapons will attach to the shoulders of those models just as easily as the ones in the Chosen kit, and yet all Legionaries, Havoc, and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option to take combi-weapons.

2: The lighting claws in the Raptors/Warp Talons kit are also fully compatible with all of the aforementioned kits, but Legionaire, Havoc and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option for lighting claws. Which is especially egregious in the case of Raptor Aspiring Champions, which are literally built from the same kit.

3: The "official" Chaos Lord in Power Armour kit is actually the Obsideus Mallex model from Blackstone Fortress, and is a Black Legion character complete with molded on Black Legion iconography, and he doesn't share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the Legionaries Chosen Havocs, and Raptors kits. And yet we are expected to use him for ALL Legions, and he can take multiple weapons from the Legionaries, Chosen, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Meanwhile, Harkon does share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the aforementioned kits, and his Black Legion iconography is on his shoulder pads, which again are fully swappable with any shoulder pads from any of the aforementioned kits. But he can not be used to build a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack for any other Legion besides Black Legion.

The optional equipment rules for CSM don't follow any paradigm. They are simply arbitrary, and are seemingly based on "you can kitbash/convert what we say you can". Stop trying to make sense of them. Only madness lies down that road.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.

Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.

I think the question should rather be why should they? They're special weapons, except they aren't if everyone carries one. And again, the only reason you want them is for a deep strike wombo combo shot which is exactly what chaos is known for and is old AF. You don't hear imperial players asking for a full unit of cyclone terms etc.
Also, I don't understand why you're comparing terminators to primaris when you actually have an identical Imperial unit to compare to, weird. What are Imperial termi loadouts again? Full of combi-plasmas?
Combi on the leader plus 2 more per squad is perfectly fine.
I do sympathize with the powerfist situation though, but that falls in line with my bizarre choice by GW out take that I mentioned in my post.

It was never a problem before, why is it a problem now?

Answer: It's not. The only reason the limit is there is because of the kit.

Don't pretend that any of these changes are due to balance.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?

Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities

So, in your opinion/interpretation, would the Lord on Jugger gain +1S when charging/charged/heroically intervening from the Mark of Khorne?

I would let you do it if you played me because it doesn't make sense for them to put the Mark of Chaos keyword on the unit if it wasn't supposed to have the Mark of Chaos.

A rules lawyer might argue you didn't follow the rules in the Mark of Chaos part of the codex and say no. Unfortunately this is GW, where RAI is normally easy to identify but different from RAW due to the writers making too many assumptions.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason

90% of my complaints are about the models, and how you are "allowed" to kit them out according to the book. I never cared about how good or bad the book was. If it was a trash book but we had awesome models, I'd have actually been happier.

I'm salty because we're still using a leftover vehicle upgrade sprue from 1996, a few other models from 3rd and 4th edition that don't match the style or even scale of the newer ones.

I'm salty because the upcoming Cultist kit was so close to being good, if they had added, once again, an extra sprue of options (in this case autoguns) so that we had all the options in one box (ironically the thing that many other entries are restricted to).

I'm salty because GW can't seem to make up their mind on any of the entries of this faction, and as ever, as I have said before and will say yet again, my blame lies predominantly with the design team.

The miniature design team and their creative director cannot apparently be bothered to give this faction a few key things.
A. A Chaos Lord with more than a thunder hammer and plasma pistol, or heck, even just a head swap option would be better at this point.
B. More than one pair of lightning claws in any new kit they make. The weapon choices are so random that the rules team are forced to write a ledger of what you can and can't take in a squad.
C. Any update to 20+ year old vehicles (not just for Chaos, but for many factions across 40k).
D. Stylistic and scale updates to units ranging from the Spawn to the Bikers to the Defiler, all old and aging.
E. Forced the Oblits and Venomcrawler into a bizarre situation where you have to buy them together in monopose boxes with zero customization options.

And that nowhere along their process was there apparently anyone that said, "Hey, these sorts of things are kind of an issue for this model range, can we get some work done on this?"

Oh, but let's go ahead and create a hodgepodge Cult Demagogue unit with a bunch of one-off models that will forever be a mess of rules.

I don't know if it's a budget issue, an issue of inspiration, whatever, but the design team seems totally fine copy-pasting the same Space Marine armor pieces across a dozen generic characters and other units, but can't be bothered to give us Chaos Lord model?

If the design team doesn't do right by the actual model itself, then everything else from there becomes a failure. The rules become a failure, the book becomes a failure, the rest of the faction suffers as a result.

Who knows? Maybe we just have to wait for them to put out all the World Eaters and Emperor's Children stuff first, a project that's taken them nearly a decade up to this point (and still no news on when EC will actually happen) and THEN maybe they'll be able to revisit Chaos Marines to get the few laggards like Huron Blackheart and the Bikers out of 3rd edition.

In the meantime, I'll go play some Minecraft.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.

Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.

I think the question should rather be why should they? They're special weapons, except they aren't if everyone carries one. And again, the only reason you want them is for a deep strike wombo combo shot which is exactly what chaos is known for and is old AF. You don't hear imperial players asking for a full unit of cyclone terms etc.
Also, I don't understand why you're comparing terminators to primaris when you actually have an identical Imperial unit to compare to, weird. What are Imperial termi loadouts again? Full of combi-plasmas?
Combi on the leader plus 2 more per squad is perfectly fine.
I do sympathize with the powerfist situation though, but that falls in line with my bizarre choice by GW out take that I mentioned in my post.

Cyclone Missiles aren't special weapons. That's a heavy weapon like the Heavy Flamer and Autocannon.

Secondly, Space Wolf Terminators can do it. Are they broken?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

No, it wasn't, and I've covered this multiple times. But fine, we'll do it again:

1: The Chosen kit is fully kitbashable with the Legionaries, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Those combi-weapons will attach to the shoulders of those models just as easily as the ones in the Chosen kit, and yet all Legionaries, Havoc, and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option to take combi-weapons.

2: The lighting claws in the Raptors/Warp Talons kit are also fully compatible with all of the aforementioned kits, but Legionaire, Havoc and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option for lighting claws. Which is especially egregious in the case of Raptor Aspiring Champions, which are literally built from the same kit.

3: The "official" Chaos Lord in Power Armour kit is actually the Obsideus Mallex model from Blackstone Fortress, and is a Black Legion character complete with molded on Black Legion iconography, and he doesn't share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the Legionaries Chosen Havocs, and Raptors kits. And yet we are expected to use him for ALL Legions, and he can take multiple weapons from the Legionaries, Chosen, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Meanwhile, Harkon does share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the aforementioned kits, and his Black Legion iconography is on his shoulder pads, which again are fully swappable with any shoulder pads from any of the aforementioned kits. But he can not be used to build a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack for any other Legion besides Black Legion.

The optional equipment rules for CSM don't follow any paradigm. They are simply arbitrary, and are seemingly based on "you can kitbash/convert what we say you can". Stop trying to make sense of them. Only madness lies down that road.

I applaud you all for trying to make this clearer, but some of the replies you get seem willfully ignorant at this point. They understand. They just don't want to agree.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.

They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.

This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.

How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.

That's why people call you a troll.

 bullyboy wrote:
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.

All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.

 Togusa wrote:
the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.

Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.

greater posessed being gone is an odd one given they're newish models too. removing a unit that was a metal model dating back to 3rd edition I can understand but removing a relatively new model is a pretty dumb decision

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.

They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.

This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.

How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.

That's why people call you a troll.

 bullyboy wrote:
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.

Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.

All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.

 Togusa wrote:
the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.

Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.

greater posessed being gone is an odd one given they're newish models too. removing a unit that was a metal model dating back to 3rd edition I can understand but removing a relatively new model is a pretty dumb decision

They weren't removed so much as rolled into the new possessed profile, there's nothing to distinguish the greater from the normal any more in terms of minis. If I were to guess they maybe considered releasing the possessed back when shadowspear came out perhaps and the 2 on the sprue would have been a "minimum unit" jobby.

Chosen & terminators not having weapon strats like harlies now that their options got neutered is surprising to say the least

 aracersss wrote:
Chosen & terminators not having weapon strats like harlies now that their options got neutered is surprising to say the least

Is it though?

I mean, when was the last time GW put more effort into CSM rules than they did out into Aeldari rules?

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
Chosen & terminators not having weapon strats like harlies now that their options got neutered is surprising to say the least

Is it though?

I mean, when was the last time GW put more effort into CSM rules than they did out into Aeldari rules?

never, someone at GW has a real man crush on the Aledari. a crush that does not extend to the, supposed, BEBGs of the setting

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
Chosen & terminators not having weapon strats like harlies now that their options got neutered is surprising to say the least

Is it though?

I mean, when was the last time GW put more effort into CSM rules than they did out into Aeldari rules?

2002.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
Chosen & terminators not having weapon strats like harlies now that their options got neutered is surprising to say the least

Is it though?

I mean, when was the last time GW put more effort into CSM rules than they did out into Aeldari rules?

never, someone at GW has a real man crush on the Aledari. a crush that does not extend to the, supposed, BEBGs of the setting

He’s called Jes Goodwin.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was never a problem before, why is it a problem now?

Answer: It's not. The only reason the limit is there is because of the kit.

Don't pretend that any of these changes are due to balance.

Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.

 bullyboy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was never a problem before, why is it a problem now?

Answer: It's not. The only reason the limit is there is because of the kit.

Don't pretend that any of these changes are due to balance.

Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.

So because you say it's not a problem, it's not a problem? This is kindergarten-level rhetoric, anybody can say that about anything.

You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.

I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.

I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.

Dudeface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.

I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.

I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.

I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.

Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.

I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.

I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.

I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.

Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.

There have been supply issues with the book which will limit it's availability for some tournaments and then there'll have been list submission cut offs and the fact ATC and WTC are coming up all making the "big" tournaments a none entity for a little while. Give it a month and it'll be a clearer picture, if they scrape a 50% using a "best possible" type list then yeah that's no ideal.