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Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C: Last update 05/11

Spoiler:

CSM doctrine:

Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affect different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
Destruction ''Doctrine''; turn 1: Heavy/grenade/Rapid fire
Massacre ''Doctrine''; turn 2-3: Rapid fire/assault/pistol
Slaughter ''Doctrine''; turn 4-end: pistol/melee/assault

Marks cost points and give inherent bonuses:
Khorne: +1S on the charge
Tzeentch ignore damage on first failed save once per turn per unit
Slaanesh fight first in the fight phase
Nurgle -1 to wound if Strength = Toughness and if Strength divided by 2 (rounded up) is greater or equal to the Toughness of the unit

Icons:
vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound

Not all units that can be marked can carry an icon
Here is a list of markable units who can have icons:
Legionaires
Chosen
Possessed
Bikers
Terminator

Here is a list of markable units that cannot get icons:
Raptors
Warptalons
Helbrute
Havocs

God specific spells:
Slanesh: 5+ fnp
Tzeentch: 4++
Nurgle: -1 to hit

Warptime nerfed: can't charge after it.

Chosen can choose and additional trait, it has now been confirmed that this trait is one of the traits from the build a warband ruleset.
-as like every other codex, pick 2 to build you own warband unless the trait is all encompassing then you only get the one
-undivided trait is all encompassing
-the rule is simply pick a trait from the custom legion traits, if the unit is markless it can pick any custom trait except the marked ones, if the unit is marked it can pick its mark specific one or any of the markless ones
-chosen cannot use an all encompassing trait as their extra trait

Chosen/Custom traits:
•+4" to range other than grenade and relic
•After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game
-After charging, in melee 6s to hit autowound (khorne specific)
-in melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (tzeentch specific)
+1 to wound vs half strength unit (Nurgle specific)
+1ap on a 6 to wound unmodified (Slaanesh specific)
+1 to advance and charge rolls
+1 to hit when targeting closest enemy unit
+1 movement & strength

If you take this one you can't take a second custom trait, also Chosen can't take this one:
Ignore CA
Fallback and shoot & fallback and charge, but with -1 to hit for the rest of the turn (unmarked specific, so no marks allowed)

No HQ upgrades like Sace Marines.

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option

Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems & renegade traits

All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army);(seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)
Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each

Legion traits:

NL:
-2LD & -1CA @ 9'' (Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LD reducing abilities)
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)
-claws of the black hunt are back but jave been renamed, S+1 ap3 D2, does not gain reroll wounds instead gains ennemies canoot use rules that ignore wounds
-vox daemonicus is 12" no deepstrike & ennemies must pass a leadership test or cannot perform actions or psychic actions
- flayer is still there and seem to be exactly the same

NL WLT
-+1 CA to ennemies & always consolidate 3" in any direction, even if touching base to base
- the horrible warlord trait of once per battle you can reroll 1 dice for hit, wounds, advance, charge and saves has been changed. It is now once per turn you can auto 6 a dice for hit, wound, advance or saves
-+D3 attacks & warlord is considered always in the slaughter phase... this is evil on a disco lord
-+1 to armor and invul saves in terrain is GONE
-fall back and charge + -1 to hit is GONE

Relics
Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+
-stormbolt plate, infantry only, 2+ save and untargetable beyond 12"
-vox daemonocus is infantry only

IW:
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WB:

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

BL:

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)


WE:
Not in the codex

Alpha legion:
•-1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
•Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
•Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

AL WLT
-sniper warlord trait
-redeploy for up to 3.units
-a cultist buff
-i am alpharius is still there

Emperor's children:
•Ignore any/all modifiers to ws / bs
•Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
•wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

Red corsairs:
•Charge if they advanced
•Models count as 2 for obsec
Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
•wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

Creations of bile:
•+1 str/move
•Fight after death in melee
•wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

Generic Relics:

-one turn for battle ennemy strats cost +1cp on a 4+ (still there)
- power sword with dd3 and causes -1 to hit (GONE)
-bolt weapons wounds on +2(except vehicules and titanic), ignores cover (still there)
-the combi bolter relic must be gone since no way foe HQ to get combis (GONE, no surprises there)
-+2 armor, and transhuman
- armor with 3d6 movemebt that can "ghostwalk" through units (still there)
- No more Murdersword

Stratagems:

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)

Generic stratagems
-for bolt rounds +6" & +1ap for the unit

BL stratagems:
-1 unit can be considered destruction/massacre/slaughter at the same time, core units only

WB stratagems:
-no more strat for possessed +1d
-the auto pass psyker spell is still there
-the auto save strat has been changed to take 0 damage instead
-they have 2 strats that affect daemonkin or possessed

EC stratagems:
-honour the prince is still there
-the sonic weapons strat does mortal wounds now, no longer +1s +1d

Alpha Legion strats:
-the sabotage strat is now auto explode
-fall back and shoot
-12" deepstrike denial
-shoot a unit that deepstrikes nearby
-forward operatives, pregame move
-conceal is replaced with untargetable beyond 12"

Night Lords:
-units in deepstrike or strategic reserves count themselves as 1 turn earlier. 1cp fo infantry & bikers; 2cp for daemonkin
NL vox scream disables AURAS
-no fall back strat (seems unchanged)
-fall back and charge(seems unchanged)
--1 to hit if fired upon (seems unchanged)
- rerolls to hit if Ld is higher then enemies (used to be +1 to hit)
-there are no more stratagems that influences moral
-lost the stratagem that gives +2 to the charge and +1 to hit in melee from terrain
-if you slay the ennemy warlord, +1 CA to ennemies for the rest of the game

Iron Warriors:

5+++ vs MW
- -1 damage for core infantry & daemonkin.
-reduce incoming ap strat is gone
-cultist bodyguards are still there

General strats:
-1 to hit bickers if they advanced this turn
Transhuman physiology only for Nurgle units
Daemonforge now +1 BS/WS
+1 to hit for Terminators and Chosen.
Fire Frenzy: Shooting Phase - if a HELLBRUTE has been hit, it can fire at the unit that hit it or the closest enemy unit. (I assume that this is in the opponent's Shooting Phase

Prayers:
-basic prayer still reroll all hits in melee
-+1 to wound in melee
- -1to hit (REPLACED) Now it is 1-3 hits always fail, no rerolls allowed
- 6" aura when doing leadership test roll 2d6 discard the highest & fail action & fight last
-+1 to hit (gone)
-5++ buble is gone you said (gone)
-priest het +2a(was +3) and ap2 (was ap4) on weapon

And for god specifics
-+d3 wounds (gone)
-advance and charge (still there)
-S+2 (gone)
-T+2 (gone)

Standard spells:
-warptime still there but no charge
-+1 to hit
-no invul on 1 ennemy unit
- 1 model get s+2 & +1a
-3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
-if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+

Datasheet info:

CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon
- Have access to the only fight/shoot twice strat in the book.

Upgrade sprue pics !


Abbadon:

Drachnyen has pierce and sweep profile.
8A/S10/AP-4/Dam D3/6+ to wound causes D3 MW
16A/S7/AP-4/Dam 1
Always fights first
-1 to wound
First failed save reduced to 0 damage
+1S on the charge
Can only take max 3 damage per phase
Full rerolls
Charge bonus
Supposedly very pricy (would be around 300 ish points)


Lucius:

Gains 3 additional attacks and +1 damage if fighting a unit with a 3+ WS

Harkon:

Can make a raptor unit reroll hit and wound

Cypher:

In the codex; can only be hit on a 4+

Chosen:
3w
can use TH

In the new book, their base loadout is boltgun & accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
-For every 5 models, can replace 2 boltguns with 2 pistols
-For every 5 models, can replace 2 boltguns with 2 combis
-For every 5 models, can replace 1 boltgun for a second accursed weapon.

Chosen have been confirmed to me to be ws/bs 3 and 3a base

Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.

Chosen in the box eldritch omens are still at their 8ed codex datasheet (so dont be surprised by 1w and seeing TH as an option)
Pictures of the sprue:






Chaos Terminators:

Basic loadout: Combi-Bolters + Accursed Weapons

For every 5 models:
-1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
-1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
-3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
-1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
-2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
-2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
-1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma

Mutilators:
no longer in the book


Warp talon:

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)
Deamonkin (no more Daemon keyword ? Now distinct from Deamon engines)

Raptors:

(unit of 5-10)
Chainsword and pistol
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 plasma pistols
Champ
Can take plasma pistol
Power sword or fist

still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Bikers:

(unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

Obliterators:

M5, T5, WS/BS 3, 4A, 5W, Ld9, 2+, 5++
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles
Deamonkin (no more Daemon keyword ? Now distinct from Deamon engines)
•have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
•ignore modifier for heavy weapons
•armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
•Has 3 shooting profiles
Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4


Havocs:

exactly the same as right now but 2w

Cult units: (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

Are no longuer in the codex
Act like harlequins in CWE army, or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
Always Elites
can benefit from army rules
Cannot gain a legion trait

Noise marines:

All their weapons are improved, +1A/W/LD.

Fallen:

No in the codex

Venomcrawler:
•is now FA
•is a bit faster
•now gives +1 to psychic tests
•claws and mechatentrites are now just 1 weapon
M12", BS3, WS2, S7, T7, 6A, 9W, 3+, 5++
Guns: ASSAULT 3, S6, AP-2, D2
Melee: S[USER], AP-3, D2

Exalted champion:

Same loadout as the model (power axe, combi melta & pistol)
Is elite and is now a lieutenant (rerolls 1 to wound @6")
Cannot change loadout
Hits better, more wounds, more attacks

Warpsmith:

Can heal vehicles
+1 to hit for daemon engines/vehicles for shooting

Discolord:

-Is now 9w
-Techno virus injector: in engagement range all weapons get +1 damage vs VEHICLES
-impaler chainglaive: Suser ap3 d2; on the charge +1 to wound
-the melta mouth weapon is a melta pistol
-6a base
-claws and tail are 4 additional attacks @ S6 ap2 d2
-mechadentritees: 4x s4 ap0 d1
-ability to wound vehicles: you can corrupt a vehicles in the command phase: roll a d6 for every wound that a vehicles has (on it's datasheet) on a 6s=1MW (maximum of 6, once per turn)
-if you kill an enemy vehicles in melee you can corrupt 2 different vehicles instead of just 1. The double corruption ability is gained for the rest of the game.
+1 to hit daemon engines/vehicles in melee
Instead of healing vehicles can hurt enemy vehicles
Limited to 1 and cant get multiple boosts (i don't understand what this means yet)

Cultists of all kind do not get legion traits

New cultist unit HQ:
-its a squad, with a banner, a priest and a psyker, + some extra bullet catchers
-The banner:rerolls 1s to hit for cultists & +2Ld to cultists
-psyker: cast 1 deny 1
-priest: knows the basic prayer and another, always lands prayer on a 3+
-squad of 5 models

Accursed Cultists (New mutant culstists):
Cultist mutants have 2 different profiles depending on the type of mutant you take
- 3-6 big models per unit
- 5-10 small models per unit
Small mutant s4 t4 ap1
Big mutant s5 t4 ap2
- All 1w each

Vanilla Cultists:

- Still here
-10-20 models

Chaos Lord:

Basic loadout is the blackstone fortress loadout (hammer, plasma pistol) but he has access to all melee weapons.

Chaos sorcerer in terminator armour:

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

Greater possessed:
Not in the codex (my guess is the models are the new regular possessed models)

Possessed:
M9, S5, T5, 5A, 3W, 3+, 5++
S[USER], AP-2, D2
unit of 10 (do not know if this is total or max)
Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit, DG will probably get a FAQ to receive the update
Deamonkin (no more Daemon keyword ? Now distinct from Deamon engines)
Possessed take up two spaces in transports.

MoP:

Has a staff that causes perils in combat with a psyker
Cast 2 deny 1
When casting, can cause d3 mortals to a friendly non daemonkin unit to gain +2 to cast
Enemy psykers suffer one additional wound if they peril within 12"
Deamonkin (no more Daemon keyword ? Now distinct from Deamon engines)

Malefic discipline:

1. +1 to wound

2. Bring back a daemonkin model

3.4+ inv to Daemonkin units and enemy's take mortals if they charge

4. Beat the models toughness on d6 destroy it

5. 6's to hit auto wound for a daemonkin unit

6. +1 str or toughness (or both if rolled high on test)


There is no longer a way to give characters a jump pack, only the daemon prince can still be equipped with wings.


MoE (elite slot):

Rerolls wounds v char
6" heroic intervene
Hits of six does two mortals and the attack ends
Axe got worse Doesn't reroll hits Doesn't explode (does with legion)
Gains a wound and an attack

Dank Apostle:

all god specific prayers are entirely new
Now give 4++ via a prayer

Chaos Bikers:

M14, T5, WS/BS 3, 3A, 3W, Ld9, 3+

Noctilith Crown:
T8 14w
Lash has 8 shots and improved strength but degrades
Increasing aura of -1Ld every turn
4++ vs shooting
PRIEST & PSYKER within 9" can perform an action.
Action: perform leadership test, if equal or below, gain 1 CP, can also replace 1 prayer or 1 spell

Generic WLT:
-for the puposes of CA ennemy units always count as if at half strength

Other:
There is a rule in the coming Codex: Chaos Daemon to allow to field Demons with a CSM detachment without losing the CSM super doctrine.

The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle

All tanks are the same, and Land Raiders are "still bad ".

IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage (damage buff is a WLT)

No new Deamon Engines

All "standard weapons", IE bolters, chainswords, lascannons, are the same profile as current.

Squad sizes:

Legionaires: 5-10
Terminators: 5-10
Havocs: 5
Obliterators: 1-3
Chosen: 5-10

units that have a native -1ld @6" aura:

Daemon prince
Accursed cultists
possessed
Chaos spawn
Raptors




http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127

First of the new batch of rumour confirmed !

02/21
"Legionnaire" upgrade sprue in the killzone box against the Eldar Corsair. Pre-command starts the 11.

04/18
New batch of rumours confirmed: Legionnaire loadout and statline

Warhammer Fest:
- A bunch of unit leaked confirmed, Codex: World Eater confirmed. Now only missing the new Chaos Bikers.

05/20
Rebox for ye old cultists:


This message was edited 43 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 06:50:19


-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

Nice. Would mean Angron within a couple years. CSM super doctrine or whatever. Multilators gone, nobody cares.

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.



You're a gentle person and a scholar, thank you
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Glad to see these rumours finally making it to dakka, and thanks to DreadfullyHopefull for starting the thread and to Dudeface for being the first to break them.

A couple of important additional tidbits from the B&C leaker:

1: The Legion traits apply to everything, which would break from Death Guard and Thousand Sons if true. For those Legions, their traits don't apply to daemon engines and Cultists (not sure about Poxwalkers or Tzaangors).

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.

Edit: It will also be important to see which units can take those Icons. Right now they're limited to: CSM, Chosen, Terminators, and Raptors. One would hope they're at least extended back to Havocs again.

I personally find the changes to Chosen Raptors, and Warp Talons most interesting. Hope at least some of this pans out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 09:11:45


 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The inclusion of Emperor's Children is not good for Fulgrim and his boys.

 ph34r wrote:
Multilators gone, nobody cares.
On the contrary. GW should be making a 3-man kit of Oblits that also makes Mutilators.

That they haven't is another missed opportunity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 09:12:48


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.


I don't know... Now a unit would lose models on 1s and 2s right ? With another -1 if they are at half strength, that's already failing combat attrition on 3s ! Could hurt on sizeable units ! Now the only question is: can they reliably make enemies fail moral...?

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

GW seems to think that Fear mechanics work, and unfortunately Night Lords are the 'fear' Legion. So that's what they get, no matter how useless the rules have shown to be.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







My approach has always been to assume the absolute worst of GW. In this case, the approach has been validated - because GW remain committed to the idea of 'morale' mechanics in a game where something like 50% of armies notionally shall no know fear.

More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 09:28:33


Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


For the, even after 20 years in the hobby, uninitiated... what does CA mean? lol

- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
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DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.


I don't know... Now a unit would lose models on 1s and 2s right ? With another -1 if they are at half strength, that's already failing combat attrition on 3s ! Could hurt on sizeable units ! Now the only question is: can they reliably make enemies fail moral...?

Except loyalists and Death Guard already ignore attrition modifiers, and supposedly so will Black Legion. Thousand Sons Rubrics are completely immune to morale, and Custodes are now L11. A more sensible approach would have been allowing the debuff to stack, but not allowing it to drop leadership below 5-6, so it would have some effect against "elite" units/factions, but not be devastating against low leadership factions like Guard and Orks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW seems to think that Fear mechanics work, and unfortunately Night Lords are the 'fear' Legion. So that's what they get, no matter how useless the rules have shown to be.

Not always. We used to be the good in cover Legion, with a heavy emphasis on lots of Veteran Skills instead of Marks.

blood reaper wrote:My approach has always been to assume the absolute worst of GW. In this case, the approach has been validated - because GW remain committed to the idea of 'morale' mechanics in a game where something like 50% of armies notionally shall no know fear.

More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or something.

Yes, that would be more satisfying than morale just = extra casualties.

Look, I don't want to turn this into just a big complaint about the Night Lords trait. There's lots of other interesting stuff to talk about here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Semper wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


For the, even after 20 years in the hobby, uninitiated... what does CA mean? lol

Combat Attrition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 09:38:57


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 09:39:56


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I would love to see more human chaos units, so this sounds awesome to me. Bring on the cultists, mutants, HQs, and traitor guard. Just hook it to my veins.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


Thanks for starting this thread!!! I am quite excited! After waiting for so long, CSM codex rumors are finally here! Quite a few of these all look very nice!
   
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Ireland

I doubt Mutilators will be gone from the book. Too cool a concept to abandon, just refine them and make better models.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
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Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.
   
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Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.
   
Made in ca
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...




The irony is that they already have a fluffy and effective ruleset for Night Lords as a subfaction in 30k that they could easily tweak to port over to 9th ed 40k, but for whatever reason they don't. Even just having Night Lords have some sort of bonus against units with a lower Ld than them would be ideal (reroll 1's to wound or something).
   
Made in gb
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Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's
   
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iron Warriors certainly seem to have a nice combination of traits, almost too good.
Ignore cover...of course
Reduce AP of 1/2 by 1, OK, can dig it.
+1 to wound for heavy/gren vs not just buildings, but vehicles (ouch) and units in cover.

That's pretty tasty and certainly encourages IW to stack on heavy weapons. Of course, if the doctrine is Turn 1 only (like marines) for heavy/gren, that won't be as effective unless going second due to opponent hiding. (I'm referring to the exploding 6s obviously here)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 15:42:08


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Grimskul wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...




The irony is that they already have a fluffy and effective ruleset for Night Lords as a subfaction in 30k that they could easily tweak to port over to 9th ed 40k, but for whatever reason they don't. Even just having Night Lords have some sort of bonus against units with a lower Ld than them would be ideal (reroll 1's to wound or something).

I think they were trying to do a 40k version of A Talent For Murder with the +1 to wound half strength/L6 or less trait, but if you can't get anything with better than L8 down low enough for it to work.... yeah, doesn't cut it. Oh well.

Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's

They were pretty good at melee back when they could walk up to you and chuck a squad of Bloodletters in your face.
   
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When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound


Wouldn't it be great if "below half strength" was actually based on the units max possible size in the codex as opposed to the size of the unit your opponent took? Kind of like an anti-blast type mechanic that punishes your opponent for spamming MSU?

Thats not what its going to be, but it would be great if it was (would make more sense from a game design standpoint to, as it wouldn't require you/your opponent to remember what the starting size of the unit was, only the unit size relative to its max possible size).

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 15:05:07


-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
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The Word Bearers stuff is weird and doesn't make a lick of sense IMO.
And as much as I love my grumpy little Iron Warriors, christ that is an insanely good block of rules. Like too good.
The Icons will be the same as they are in the DG/Tsons Codexes with some other stuff for the ones that aren't there and AFAIK Icons of Flame/Despair haven't changed since 8th.
I'm not trying to see like a downer here but these Legion Traits don't track with what GW has done with other subfaction rules, in that they've generally stayed the same.
   
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 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.
   
Made in us
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Tampa,FL USA

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


I don't really see GW giving a subfaction a trait that's a bonus to a rule from an entirely different Codex.

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
1: The Legion traits apply to everything, which would break from Death Guard and Thousand Sons if true. For those Legions, their traits don't apply to daemon engines and Cultists (not sure about Poxwalkers or Tzaangors).


TS trait is the 5++, which applies to everything except spawn and cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
That's pretty tasty and certainly encourages IW to stack on heavy weapons. Of course, if the doctrine is Turn 1 only (like marines) for heavy/gren, that won't be as effective unless going second due to opponent hiding. (I'm referring to the exploding 6s obviously here)


Yea this is something that runs out of steam too quickly so unless IW have worthwhile traits and strats I don't think people will go with them outside of die hards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 15:53:29


   
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 Gert wrote:
The Word Bearers stuff is weird and doesn't make a lick of sense IMO.
And as much as I love my grumpy little Iron Warriors, christ that is an insanely good block of rules. Like too good.
The Icons will be the same as they are in the DG/Tsons Codexes with some other stuff for the ones that aren't there and AFAIK Icons of Flame/Despair haven't changed since 8th.
I'm not trying to see like a downer here but these Legion Traits don't track with what GW has done with other subfaction rules, in that they've generally stayed the same.

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?
   
 
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