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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm thinking particularly in terms of the plague marines weapon entry, or the restriction in Skitarii squads to only having one of each special weapon. It's just... un-fun, at least to me.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

No it’s dumb and one of the changes that has me quickly losing interest in 40k. rip my 25 fusion pistol troupes
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

There's no way anyone finds them fun. I sure as hell don't.

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Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




It's one of the main parts driving me away from 40K at the moment, despite finding the base rules better than ever.
But I open up a single page from Grimdark Future and there's more inspiration to build my models than there is in the 42€ book GW sells me.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

No one sane really liked it, but many players (the pick up games crowd) accept it in the sake of a more standardized game.

 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.


Which tbf, would be a non issue for monetary reasons if some kits (basically all outside of SC / Combat patrol type deals) were not horrendusly overpriced and or bad content wise (csm sprue comes to mind as a newish exemple of really lackluster contents).


Ultimativly, the "hobby" side of things, including building, converting, kitbashing, painting has through those changes lost atleast in the 3 first categories whilest painting has remained the same, except maybee improved for the new hobbiest with speed paints and contrast paints.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






There is an argument kit restrictions benefit those who can’t afford to, or don’t way to pay for, extra stuff to chase specific bits and bobs.

However. In certain circumstances (Skitarii spring immediately to mind) longer term players can no longer run their squads with three of the same special weapon. That’s arbitrarily removed player options, as there’s now no way to specialise your squads. And in that specific instance, especially where you’d probably want at least 3, 10 head count units of Skitarii, rendering the “only one of a weapon per kit” largely moot.

It’s also going to depend on how well those weapons synergise. To stick with Skitarii? The Arqeubus in particular doesn’t play nicely with Vanguard. Like. At all. They’re otherwise short ranged and high rate of fire, the Arquebus is the exact opposite, so why would you ever take one in such a squad? Granted you don’t ever need to max out a squad’s load - but it’s still a choice largely made for the player, which I’m not especially keen on.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not really sure what is meant by fun.

I don't like the pay 2 win aspect of "the best legal loadout" not being in the box. So you will have people 3d printing these extras, or scrounging bitz boxes, or just saying "screw WYSIWYG anyway, these flamers are plasma guns in my heart."

Admittedly though you can say this is a bit stupid with certain units. The Skitarii mentioned are a good example. Yes, there's only one plasma caliver and one arc rifle in the box, so logically I can only have one of each. But its not too much of a hardship for me to buy 2 boxes. Indeed I'll basically have to if I want to round our some detachments. (And just wait until next edition when the minimum size of a Skitarii squad almost invariably goes up to 10 - people will be so mad).

So... from my 2 boxes. Its not that difficult to have 2 guys with plasma calivers and put them in one unit. While the other maybe has 2 arc rifles - or arquebuses or nothing at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/16 09:47:21


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Macragge

I personally don't like the kit restrictions. I haven't actually played since 8th, but I remember them heavily pushing the "three ways to play" with power level and the more granular points. Seems like tying the kit restrictions to the power level version of play would restrict the min-max abuse that allows while you could leave the options in for the more granular points?

   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

However. In certain circumstances (Skitarii spring immediately to mind) longer term players can no longer run their squads with three of the same special weapon. That’s arbitrarily removed player options, as there’s now no way to specialise your squads.


Yeah that's a bummer. I built my DE Wyches with 2 x Hydra Gauntlets, which now isn't a valid loadout. My CSM Terminators have 2 guys equipped with Lightning Claws, which is sounding like it won't be legal in the new codex. And I'm vaguely concerned about my Raptors too, as I have 2 x Meltaguns on them and I'm pretty sure the box only came with 1.

I don't really want to have to butcher any of the few models I have actually completed painting, nor do I especially want to re-buy (and worse, re-paint) the same thing again, to have a legal loadout.

I'm sure the guy I play with would be happy enough for me to proxy, or even run with an illegal loadout to be honest, but I'm not really happy about it myself.

I think GW basically heard the problem - "you can't build all the valid squad loadouts with what comes in the box" and fixed it the wrong way round, by removing options from the rules instead of being more generous with their boxes. I guess the former was always the more likely way they would go, but still rankles.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.

Question - what was stopping them fielding units equipped like that before these restrictions were introduced?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




They have not been playing in those times by virtue of being new players. A lot of people that play for a longer time overestimate the whole it was better or worse in prior editions thing. New players don't care about that, because they never played in those. To them the only state they know, is the state they have right now.

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Barpharanges







IMO kit restrictions are the single worst change Games Workshop has ever made to the game. Like, GW has made many, many, many terrible additions or changes (fliers, the over-abundance of high armour piercing weapons, the complexity of objectives, psychic powers being random, etc.), but kit restrictions take the cake.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 10:54:44


The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






Yup. One of my first boxes was a 5th edition era tactical marine box. IIRC it came with a plasma gun, a flamer, a melta gun(could be wrong on this?) and a missile launcher.

Turns out, I could only use two of those, and one of them had to be the missile launcher. Very unfun to learn, but luckily I hadn't learned about plastic glue yet so was easy to fix.

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Dakka Veteran





No. The goal should always be to deliver as many options as is feasible, both in terms of assembly and rules.

There is no reason to not have enough weapon bits in a Havoc sprue to equip them uniformly.

There is also no reason to allow 1 Plasma Gun + 1 Melta in an infantry squad and disallow 2 Plasma Guns or 2 Meltas at the same time.

   
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"Does anyone like getting punched in the face?"
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Gert wrote:
"Does anyone like getting punched in the face?"


Have you met GW fans? Put a price tag on that and they'd be queuing around the block for it! We wouldn't have any Whales left because they'd have been beaten to death by this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 12:57:39


The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Dysartes wrote:
MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.

Question - what was stopping them fielding units equipped like that before these restrictions were introduced?


Nothing stopped them, but chances are there were combos which were simply way more powerful/efficient if you had multiple boxes and spare parts.

On the one hand I'd don't like the loss of weapons. I dislike the loss of things like Hive Tyrants with twin-linked devourers or having the option to have one flying around with two pairs of them.

On the other I respect that making the game more about what comes in the box means that it is fair to those who don't have easy access to spare parts, 3rd parties or converting. Heck I recall at the height of the days before the Chapterhouse Lawsuit GW was adding models to armies (esp leaders) which never got a mode. Tyranids only just got one of those the other week. That's YEARS of waiting for a model that appeared so long ago its probably coming up to being old enough to vote.


I think the game is more fair and more fun when what you get in the box is what you can put on the table and when GW sells you all of the product line. One of the biggest downsides, to me, with Infinity (for example) is that you don't get everything. Sure the community is very open to proxies, but you have loads of weapon options which are never modelled; and range rotation exists there too. It's less fun when models can only be found second hand or with converting.


My hope is that these limits can be reversed over time. That GW can update newer kits with more options, at the very least in terms of weapons and kit, even if the poses aren't as variable/poseable (though I accept that modern GW platsics come with VASTLY more dynamic poses than they ever used too).




It's a win some lose some situation.
My hope is that over time we win some of these options back with kit updates.

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I just disregard these restriction. I still use plasma BlightLords or double Plasma 5-man Skitarii.

I will still use Lords/Sorcerers with jump pack if they really get removed
I will still use all plasma Chaos Termis once they get removed.

I pay for the points anyway.

And having 10 different weapons in a squad just slows the game soooo much more.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Overread wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.

Question - what was stopping them fielding units equipped like that before these restrictions were introduced?



On the other I respect that making the game more about what comes in the box means that it is fair to those who don't have easy access to spare parts, 3rd parties or converting. Heck I recall at the height of the days before the Chapterhouse Lawsuit GW was adding models to armies (esp leaders) which never got a mode. Tyranids only just got one of those the other week. That's YEARS of waiting for a model that appeared so long ago its probably coming up to being old enough to vote.



People need to learn how to convert and scratch build more.

(You almost certainly aren't getting those options back btw - sorry no refunds).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 13:41:19


The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
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 blood reaper wrote:
People need to learn how to convert and scratch build more.

(You almost certainly aren't getting those options back btw - sorry no refunds).

People don't "need" to learn anything. It's an optional part of the hobby that not everyone has the eye for. Some people are excellent painters but aren't good at conversions, some are basically Big Meks that can make a functional model out of sprues.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 blood reaper wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.

Question - what was stopping them fielding units equipped like that before these restrictions were introduced?



On the other I respect that making the game more about what comes in the box means that it is fair to those who don't have easy access to spare parts, 3rd parties or converting. Heck I recall at the height of the days before the Chapterhouse Lawsuit GW was adding models to armies (esp leaders) which never got a mode. Tyranids only just got one of those the other week. That's YEARS of waiting for a model that appeared so long ago its probably coming up to being old enough to vote.



People need to learn how to convert and scratch build more.

(You almost certainly aren't getting those options back btw - sorry no refunds).


Why not? Heck my example is the Tryanid Parasite which was removed and is now back.
Granted we never got the Doom model, but the neurothrope at least filled that kind of slot for a more elite zoanthrope model.

And I've no problem with people learning to convert and scratch build. However there's a difference between a skill which is desirable and one which is essential. I think that moving it from essential to desirable is a net gain. It means that those who either don't want too or are not as talented in that field are not left out of the game.

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Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Gert wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
People need to learn how to convert and scratch build more.

(You almost certainly aren't getting those options back btw - sorry no refunds).

People don't "need" to learn anything. It's an optional part of the hobby that not everyone has the eye for. Some people are excellent painters but aren't good at conversions, some are basically Big Meks that can make a functional model out of sprues.


Because it has been part of the wargaming tradition since the beginning, and enriches the game and their enjoyment of it. The fact that people aren't good initially (indeed, that's why it's called a learning process) should not really be considered a barrier.

 Overread wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
MaleficentRuler wrote:
Its well liked by the newer and younger players in my area, more than one commented that its how they play anyway as they don't have the cash or time for anything different. Certainly in my area GW is pushing the Scouting/School crowd as a way to get more newer younger players.

Question - what was stopping them fielding units equipped like that before these restrictions were introduced?



On the other I respect that making the game more about what comes in the box means that it is fair to those who don't have easy access to spare parts, 3rd parties or converting. Heck I recall at the height of the days before the Chapterhouse Lawsuit GW was adding models to armies (esp leaders) which never got a mode. Tyranids only just got one of those the other week. That's YEARS of waiting for a model that appeared so long ago its probably coming up to being old enough to vote.



People need to learn how to convert and scratch build more.

(You almost certainly aren't getting those options back btw - sorry no refunds).


Why not? Heck my example is the Tryanid Parasite which was removed and is now back.
Granted we never got the Doom model, but the neurothrope at least filled that kind of slot for a more elite zoanthrope model.



The return of a pair of figures is not really indicative that the game will undergo a complete shift in direction - i.e., the shift to cutting out options (largely to try and corner the market which is then presented by GWs incredibly cynical defenders as trying to make something 'easier' for people).

I do not believe we will ever see multiple combi-plasma terminators or chosen or whatever again.

And I've no problem with people learning to convert and scratch build. However there's a difference between a skill which is desirable and one which is essential. I think that moving it from essential to desirable is a net gain. It means that those who either don't want too or are not as talented in that field are not left out of the game.


Everything is a learning process, and that includes conversions. You have to learn to play the game, build models, and paint. I think conversions and converting have always been a key part of the hobby, and therefore should be essential - and should be rewarded.

Simply because people lack a skill initially doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of the hobby.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 14:02:33


The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The trouble with converting is that it’s not a skill everyone has. And there’s always a risk of TFG claiming it’s not actually WYSIWYG and trying to Colin Robinson a win.

Now of course the correct fix for that is either…

A) Just add an extra sprue to each kit to cover the permutations as best as possible.

B) Take the forthcoming Heresy approach, which I for one fully endorse.

The route GW has taken? As I said there is some sense behind it, but it’s the worst fix - especially for those with established armies (and by extension plans, roles, tactic and strategies) who’ve just had the rug pulled out from under them.

It’s also a bit uneven. First Born Marines? They’ve not (to the best of my, as ever, limited knowledge) been hit by this. So their Devastator squads can still hyper specialise, even though their kit doesn’t allow you to do that without playing swapsies/3rd party bits.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
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Barpharanges







 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The trouble with converting is that it’s not a skill everyone has. And there’s always a risk of TFG claiming it’s not actually WYSIWYG and trying to Colin Robinson a win.


Yes but people also don't have a talent for painting or basing - yet we're all in the right to complain about unpainted armies and unbased models?

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Never Forget Isstvan!






 blood reaper wrote:
Because it has been part of the wargaming tradition since the beginning, and enriches the game and their enjoyment of it. The fact that people aren't good initially (indeed, that's why it's called a learning process) should not really be considered a barrier.

It might enrich your enjoyment but everyone isn't a clone of you, thank god.
Of my gaming group, two of us enjoy conversions. The other three just want to play the game and very rarely even paint their models. Building models with instructions isn't a barrier because the instructions tell you what to do. Converting has no set of instructions and it is down to the individual. Some people just don't have the converting bug and forcing it upon them is a gakky thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blood reaper wrote:
Yes but people also don't have a talent for painting or basing - yet we're all in the right to complain about unpainted armies and unbased models?

That is entirely different and you know it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 14:09:34


 
   
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Barpharanges







 Gert wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
Because it has been part of the wargaming tradition since the beginning, and enriches the game and their enjoyment of it. The fact that people aren't good initially (indeed, that's why it's called a learning process) should not really be considered a barrier.

It might enrich your enjoyment but everyone isn't a clone of you, thank god.
Of my gaming group, two of us enjoy conversions. The other three just want to play the game and very rarely even paint their models. Building models with instructions isn't a barrier because the instructions tell you what to do. Converting has no set of instructions and it is down to the individual. Some people just don't have the converting bug and forcing it upon them is a gakky thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blood reaper wrote:
Yes but people also don't have a talent for painting or basing - yet we're all in the right to complain about unpainted armies and unbased models?

That is entirely different and you know it.


"You WILL convert or you WILL BE SHOT BEHIND THE CHEMICAL SHED!" I scream in my pseudo NKVD uniform, cocking my revolver before removing another mediocre redditor.


Well, if your group isn't even painting models, I can't really say that speaks highly in their favour. Funny that your next point is claiming that it is totally different from converting - and without explaining either!

The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
 
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