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Hello all, first-time poster

I recently started a Deathwing army, and i've lost more than 3/4 of the games i've played in so far. I was wondering if anyone had any tactics or tips they'd like to share about the Deathwing army, for the benefit of all of the new terminator-junkies out there.

thanks!

well, although some might consider this cheesey, min-max on assault cannons. Take one Land Raider crusader, and no other land raiders. Venerable dreadnoughts do annoy the enemy.

Here, if it helps, i'll post up an army list

1000pts

HQ
Grand Master of the Deathwing w/ Lightning Claws

T
2 squads of 5 terminators w/ 2 assault cannons, tank hunters

FA
1 squad of 5 terminators w/ 2 cyclone missile launchers, tank hunters

________________________________________________

here's 1500pts

HQ
Grand Master of the Deathwing w/ Lightning Claws

Master of Sanctity w/ Crozius, Stormbolter

T
2 squads of 5 terminators w/ 2 assault cannons, tank hunters

FA
1 squad of 5 terminators w/ 2 cyclone missile launchers, tank hunters

1 squad of 5 terminators w/ 2 cyclone missile launchers, tank hunters

E
Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, DCCW
________________________________________--

I mainly faced space wolves, and a few other armies. what do you think?

What is your army?

You ~need~ other things beside assault cannons because rending is unreliable. I made that mistake when I first started playing them believing the assault cannon to be all powerful. I have 10 at most in 1850 (6 on terminators, 3 on dreads, LRC), but there are other weapons thrown in there. The number is usually either 7 or 9 though.

My normal army is a Libarian with fear and powerfist, 3x 5 man with 2x assault cannons, 1 venerable dread, 2 regular dreads, 1 regular land raider, and 1 crusader (or a command squad of tank hunting cyclones). One of the assault cannon squads becomes a command squad of tank hunter assault cannons if I use the crusader.

Now before I get jumped about the regular raider, it is there for solely tactical reasons. Anything it kills is a bonus. It fills the role of mobile terrain just like a carnifex screen in a Godzilla army. If it gets popped, I can control where it is so that I still get the benefit from it. My tactics are that the crusader provides fire support for the Librarian squad and each other squad gets a dreadnaught for fire support. The Land Raider runs interferance and provides fire support where needed.

I'm iffy on deep striking. It depends on the mission, the opponent, and how much disruption I can cause by it. Usually the Librarian is the first consideration for deep strike due to fear and rear/side shots for his tank hunters.

The key to this is concentrate firepower until the target is dead or combat ineffective. Each squad has a vehicle to provide fire support and blocking cover for them so they can focus on a target while minimizing return fire. My tactic also works around this: Assault cannons are AP weapons who can do AT and Cyclones are AT weapons who can do AT and Lascannons are Lascannons.

Lightning claws on the GM are wasted really. The only reason to take a character who isn't a librarian or a chaplain is the GM w/ Sword of Secrets. I lean to the librarian over the chaplain since the chaplain is geared to fighting HtH and your guns don't work in HtH.

Usually, putting slots in fast attack won't do you much advantage since you'll probably be deployed out before you could do anything reactionary with the fast. Put them in the troops to help your troops %'s if you have a comp system or players who look at that.

The change I would make to your list would be only one cyclone squad. Give the other's assault cannons. At 1500 you need the extra shots over the 1 sure kill.

i thought that you had to have a master or grandmaster in the deathwing army, per FAQ rules?

Neither are a required choice.

well, thats good

im going to make some different lists, see what you think when i post them up

okay, here's a 1500pt one

HQ
Master of Sanctity w/ Crozius, Thunder Hammer

E
5 assault terminators w/ 4 lightning claws, 1 thunder hammer

HS
land raider crusader

T
2 squads of 5 termies w/ 2 assault cannons

1 squad of 5 termies w/ 4 chainfists, 2 cyclone ML's, tank hunters

how's this? i had some points floating around, and since everything is so expensive, i just threw em somewhere

250 points is a lot to spend on an extra chunk of terrain. In an army where the cheapest guy runs at 45 points, there is NO room for junk like a land raider until you get to 1700+ where everything is mechanized.

There are a couple of things to remember when creating deathwing armies:

1) Even numbers rule in terms of scoring units: cut that raider and boost all of your squads up to 6 men

2) Shooting is the name of the game: really, deathwing is all about throwing out rediculous amounts of slugs all game long

2a) Assault cannons are divine, everything else is questionable at best

2b) Librarians with fear/(insert other power here) are the best shooty characters out there

2c) Anything that you take which compromises your firepower compromises your list (read: assault termies aren't the best choice at 1500)

Now, these premesis change at higher points values, but at 1500 you will want to assault cannon your enemy to death.

Tactical considerations:

1) Back up and shoot; you can move 6" every turn. If you back away from your enemy, you get more shots

2) If you're going to assault, make sure that you shoot at something before hand! If there's another fragile unit sitting around and you can take it out before assaulting, shoot it!

3) Start on the table against assaulty armies to get more shots in and deepstrike against shooty types to get at the fragile/dangerous parts then assault (yes I said don't assault in general, but if you're going to get out-shot, you might as well charge)

4) Remember that powerfists can be turned off in the even that you charge something squishy (orks/aspect warriors etc.)

5) Every squad should have a veteran skill, doesn't matter which

6) Your invulnerable save is as good as 75% of cover out there; you aren't as terrain dependant as most armies

7) Stay compact! Restrict your opponents firing/assault lanes and put all of your army together to concentrate fire

8) Start all off or all on at the beginning of the game

9) Librarians in pods are fun

cheers

how bout this?

HQ
Codicier w/ Force weapon, fear of the darkness

T
2 squads of 5 termies w/ 2 assault cannons, tank hunters

1 squad of 5 termies w/ 2 assault cannons

FA
2 squads of 5 termies w/ 1 chainfist, 2 assault cannons, tank hunters

i also have to think of this in terms of cash, and if i add a guy to each squad, i have to buy another box

Looks like we agree on almost everything but the Assault Cannon ether dude. Yeah, it's fearsome on paper and statistically (until you look at the distribution of the rolls) but I've gone a whole game with only one or two rending hits. That's why I mix weapons up to let the assault cannons do what they are good at (killing infantry) and leave the tank killing to the pros (except in a pinch). I've run it at 5 and 6 men and it performs about the same. I gain more options my way. You don't like it and that's fine. I'll keep it and use it to snipe and block LoS. I've had alot of success with it, as have others on other boards that play Deathwing.

Looking better dude.

List looks good dude; only thing that I might change is turning one of the FA squads into a commamd squad of 4 and using the extra points to boost your HQ to an Epistolary with another power along with some homers for the seargents just in case. But that makes it more or less identical to my list, so just go with what you feel is cool/good.

Ronin, we actually agree on everything (in principle); we just differ in terms of balance at various points levels and how best to fill the long range anti-tank role at those levels.

For instance, at 1850, I've got two TL las/missile launcher dreads podding in. That gives me all of the AT fire that I need. But at 1500, I'm not afraid of AV 14 because it's easy to ignore in favor of shooting up the rest of the army. I think that a 33% chance of destroying a land raider from one squad of tank hunting assault cannons is pretty good at 1500, but inadequite at 1850+ where you begin to see monoliths and the like.

cheers

Anything that involves rolling dice is unreliable.  I think some psychologically people underestimate the effectiveness of rending.  This was what convinced me of the superiority of assault cannons:

This is a quick comparison of 2 assault cannons vs 2 cyclones, with and without tank hunters, against common target types.  Firstly, against non-skimmers, the average number of penetrating hits (number in brackets is the average number of penetrating or glancing hits.)  This can of course be used to compare ACs with lascannons, as they have the same penetration roll as cyclones with TH.

                        AV12                 AV13               AV14    
2 ACs                0.89    (0.89)    0.74    (0.89)    0.59    (0.74)
2 ACs + TH        0.89    (1.78)    0.89    (0.89)    0.74    (0.89)
2 Cyc                0.44    (0.67)    0.22    (0.44)    0.00    (0.22)
2 Cyc + TH        0.67    (0.89)    0.44    (0.67)    0.22    (0.44)

Now for skimmers, the average number of glances:

                      AV10    AV12    AV13
2 ACs             2.67      0.89      0.89
2 ACs + TH     3.56      1.78      0.89
2 Cyc              1.11      0.67      0.44
2 Cyc + TH      1.33      0.89      0.67

Assault cannons without tank hunters match or beat cyclones with TH in every category.  Including averaging three times more penetrating hits against AV14.  I'm willing to tolerate higher variance in return for such an advantage in means, and the greater effectiveness against infantry.  The only genuine advantage of cyclones is the range, but assault cannons have an effective range of 30" which isn't bad.

Tank hunter on the assault cannons looks worthwhile if your worried avout AV12 skimmers (Eldar...)

Can you post the formula to how you get those values?

Actually, I started out buying into the myth that assault cannons were the answer to every problem. Turns out though that it's the distribution of the dice and likelyness that matter more than the odds. Yeah, an assault cannon may be able to rip open a predator like nobody's business but you still have to get the rend first. Unreliability is precisely why I rely on Lascannons and TH Cyclones first and let AC's pick up the slack.

In 40k, there is but one truth.

Assault cannons are the ANSWER.

Whatever problem you have, assault cannons have answers for. Know this first and formost and though shalt not go wrong.

In 1850, I have the following

Master with Lightning Claws
Command squad with 2x assault cannons

4x 5 man Termies with 2x assault cannons

3x Dreads in drop pods with assault cannons

Thats 13 assault cannons, and deepstrike all the time. You drop in and just start rending. On another note, I recently played in an RTT where I added extra toys like Chainfists and a venerable dread at the expense of drop pods, and upgraded one Dread with a Twin Las and missile. The Twin Las dread was pretty damn instrumental in both games, despite not being able to drop, but I did have some nice deployment options. I still didn't feel right having 3 AV 12 walkers as the only models on the table at the beginning of the game.

Whatever problem you have, assault cannons have answers for. Know this first and formost and though shalt not go wrong.

So what happens when you have 10 assault cannons (two squads + dreadnaught) over 2 rounds ping off a demolisher because the distribution of the dice rolls wasn't in your favor? What happens when a TH Cyclone has double the chance of an initial glance or pen roll? I agree it's great when you do rend, however you still need that first six to start it.

Just like I hate it when I make 3 saves for bolter/las/any other AP 3 or higher fire and it comes up 5,5,6. I know I'm blowing my next few invulnerables...

Just for the record, against infanty I agree 100% about the assault cannon's effectivness. I don't buy into that it's the answer for armor, so I'll agree to disagree with anyone else who believes so for the reason above.

12thRonin, stop being asinine! Some chance of failure exists with all weapons in 40k (1 to wound, miss the two, cover save, etc. etc.) and thus claiming that asscans will bounce off is utterly slowed. The statistics show very clearly that yes, yes, resounding damn near orgasmic yes Assault Cannons are the answer to every non-monilith thing in the game. Frankly 200+ hypersonic, armour-piercing, high-explosive anti-tank rounds per second can't be bad.

I'm not being asinine or slowed. I asked for the formula used for the above calculations. My real-world experience says different due to the distribution of the dice rolls which (as I will believe until you show me the formula) isn't factored in.

The fact is you need a 6 on the pen roll to do anything. That's a 17% chance and I conceded that if you rend, then yes get a towel. However you still need that inital 6 to do anything. Further, you're pouring so many shots into something that per point you are not being efficient.

Either way, keep having your wet dream that assault cannons are the answer to every armor situation. I'll enjoy reliably killing armor with TH Cyclones or lascannons. Chances are we aren't going to shift our opinions either way (you'll stand by stats, I'll stand by experience), so I'm going to agree to disagree with everyone who shares this view and be done with it.

I still would like to see the formula used above however.

yeah, i just did the formula, he's right. He incorporated the chance of getting a six, and that makes assault cannons very reliable. But you also have to bring into the question of how much fun you're letting your opponent have. Last game, I played Nids in 1500pts, and had an assault squad and a chaplain (who just so happened to be inside a land raider crusader!) literally rip through 25 hormagaunts, 3 warriors, one zoanthrope, and one hive tyrant. I had 7 assault cannons. I didnt need them to utterly destroy my opponent. You dont need assault cannons to win, and you can surprise your opponent if you actually attack! I swear by assault squads (with a chaplain) now, but only if i play enough points. That squad is one of the hardest hitting units in the game. on the charge (which i always got), i had 20 rerollable lightning claw attacks, with rerolls to wound. and 11 thunder hammer attacks (including the chaplain). all of them rerolling to hit. I was going to charge a zoanthrope, so right after i said "im going to disembark" he just took the zoanthrope off the board!

What im saying is, the way to win games with deathwing is to be different each time. Sure you can still load up on the assault cannons, but if you add in that extra element of surprise and confusion for your opponent. He wont know how to react, and will most likely send useless stuff after the termies to try and deal with them.

The reason you are being slowed, is as everyone has stated before.

The chance for an 2 Assault Cannons to get a rend, and then penetrate or glance a vehicle is greater than the chance for a Cyclone to hit and penetrate or glance a vehicle.

Maybe you might not get that rend with an Assault Cannon volley. This is a true statement. However, it is vastly misleading. You might not get to hit with that Cyclone as well.

The odds of you doing damage with an AC are greater in every case than the odds of you doing damage with a Cyclone, with the 1 exception of Living Metal.
Period. Any discussion beyond this point amounts to, I am luckier with Cyclones than I am with ACs. That is not a fact, that is not proof that is picking something to make you feel better over something that works.

Toss in the fact that the AC vastly outperforms the cyclones (and nearly every other weapon in the game) against all other targets, and you have a winner.

If you are taking something other than an Assault Cannon on your Termies, than you are taking the strictly worse option. Period. No ifs ands or buts. The facts say that the Assault Cannon will do better against every single target in the game that is not composed of living metal, or possibly suffering instant death. (Haven't done the math on the AC vs Cyclone vs multiwound T4 or less creatures)

There's no such thing as distribution of dice rolls. Each roll is a distinct event. Rolls do not influence later rolls. There is not some pool of sixes somewhere that you get access to over the course of a game. Rolls do not even out through the course of a game. If that's how you feel about how probability works, then field whatever you want, but it's not how things work in the real world. Army building based on superstition is not going to work for people who don't have the same superstition.

Assault cannons probably do pretty well against multi-wound T4 creatures because having taken one wound they are obliged to absorb all the subsequent wounds until dead.

Where is the Deathwing list published? Sorry to ask such a n00b question but I have 39 terminators in my Space Hulk collection and it wouldn't take much to change them into a full army.

its in the dark angels codex, pretty close to the front

Here's another list, see if its good. 1850pts

HQ
Master of Sanctity w/ Crozius, Thunder Hammer

E
7 Assault Terminators w/ 5 Lightning Claws, 2 Thunder Hammers, Furious Charge

all of the above is going inside the crusader

HS
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers, Searchlight

E
Venerable Dreadnought w/ Missile Launcher, TL Lascannon

T
6 Terminators w/ 2 assault cannons
6 Terminators w/ 2 assault cannons
6 Terminators w/ 2 assault cannons

it was very competitive vs my friends tyranids (most of whom i wiped out in combat!)

For people who use assault termies, do you find that you need the land raider to get them into hth? I'm asking because I love the idea of all of those LC attacks, but I don't really want to buy, paint, or field a land raider. Is deep striking or podding good enough to get them into the thick of it? That one turn of standing around and not being able to do anything worries me.

oh god its horrible! usually, your opponent will shoot EVERYTHING he's got at the squad, and it will either die, or become useless. I use the land raider because it is tough, and its got guns. Guns are good. and if you assault from it into cover, they strike simultaneously! What's not to like? it is a big tank, so it is difficult to start the modelling process, but it is well worth it. If you dont give them a land raider, they will be slowy picked off and become noneffective. The land raider gives you the option to pick who you assault too

i wlll agreeon assault terminators. ever since i put them into my list they have been the fire magnet.

every now and then it works  if my reserve rolls work out.  every ssquad has a homer so i like to drop my shooting units in pods close to the enemy and then bring in the assaulting units right on top of them in the next turn.

in tactics deathwing is really limited by it's options. no matter what you do you will have a small army(good on the bank account though)

if you take land raiders or multples there of you have a huge points sink for very  few models. there is also far to much on the table that can take out AV14 for me to run the in small games(below 3,000 points)

dreads can be effective and annoying,  especially in drop pods, but they don't tend ot be very resiliant

IMO terminators are your best option because than can both shoot and assault effectively and are generaly the most versitile unit but in the end it really depends on your preference.

 

on the table you must utilize terrain to limit the return fire other than that the tactic is simple in most cases-focus on a small section of the board or units, overwhelm it and then move to the next.

my currrent 1850 deathwing is:

DEATHWING-

strike force anvil-

HQ

brother galen

.librarian-epistolary with terminator armor, fury of the ancients, storm bolter, force weapon, adamantine mantle, stubborn, bionics, teleport homer, furious charge

retinue-

9 man terminator squad, chainfist X2/ assualt cannon X2, furious charge X9

TROOP

troop 1(red)

5 man terminator squad, chainfist X2/ assualt cannon X2, teleport homer, tank hunter X5, drop pod

troop 2(green)

5 man terminator squad, chainfist X2/ assualt cannon X2, teleport homer, tank hunter X5, drop pod/deathwind launcher

troop 3(charlie)

10 man terminator assault squad lightning claws X8, thunder hammer/storm shields X2 with furious charge X10, teleport homer

points 1839

i have enough un used stuff  i could easily bump it up over 3,000

Ok, I know this subject hasnt been commented on inawhile, but its worth raising from the dead.

The order for choosing army selection is:
1st termintaors
2nd dreads
3rd landraiders

Option three really isnt an option until you get up to around 3000 points.

But in order to make death wing competitive (this is a one trick pony army, afterall) you need wounds. Wounds provided by terminators.
The only time you take anything other than terminators, is when you dont have enough points to field them, so you take a dread to fill in the large gap. If you dont field the max amount of termies possible, then you may as well field 6 LR's and three dreads.

This is a cardinal rule #1. Dont question it, just do it. Any deathwing player worth their salt will confirm this. People may argue I am wrong about my opinion, but frankly they are foolish and shortsighted to disagree with this fundamental fact.

Many people feel guilt when using a perceptivly inordinate amount of assault cannons. I would feel guilty if I was playing any other variety of marines, but deathwing need them just to keep up with the enemy. You lack a rate of fire because of a lack of models, assault cannons make up for the difference. It is IN FACT, the best and only option you should field as a squad upgrade for termie squads! Tank hunter is a very worthwhile squad upgrade and I strongly recommend giving 75% of your squads this upgrade, if not more.

This is cardinal rule #2.

Assault terminators are best left at home, atleast until the proper codex is released. The new rules have somewhat nerfed DW by not allowing a mixture of assault elements in with the termie squads. Leave the assualt termies at home unless transporting them in a LRC in excess of 3k points. These models actually do their job TOO WELL! Alot of times, they will completly deciamte a unit, leaving you open to return fire on the opponents turn. Its a tempting a pretty unti, that needs to be left in the armor hanger.

If playing games not using cities of death rules, always field the magic number 6 for your squads. This keeps them as a scoring unit for much longer. The enemy has to dislodge 4 termies before making a squad non scoring. When using cities of death rules, having the minimum squad of 5 is actually preferential, as the scoring unit only needs to be 25% of starting size.

You will most often not want to shoot into the squad youre about to charge that turn. The reason being most termie squads can take the enemy squad out on the enemies turn. if you shoot before assaulting, then you might win the assault phase and leave yourself open to being shot at during the opponents turn. This is where a bit of finesse comes in.

Landraiders are a points sink. If you need the anti armor capabilty, then field a TLL/ ML armed dread with TH. Allow the dread to be a firemagnet. It isnt a very resilient bot to begin with, unless venerabilty is used, and even then its a risk to assume it will last for more than 2-3 turns against a player who knows what he is doing.

With the above in mind, and implemented, you are now on nearly equal ground with most opponents, theorhetically. You will still draw the majority of your games, but thats alot better than losing most of your games.

Drop podding versus teleporting:
I am biased towards teleporting for one reason. More termies to field. termies can inherently drop into battle any time they wish using the teleportation. Fielding alot of pods decreases cardinal rule #1. With the points spent on pods, you could have fielded an anti tank element in the form of a dread or more termies.

This is not to say that pods stink. They are in fact quite good in a DW army, but keeping in mind the amount of attrition we have to deal with by simply being DW, I side with teleporting. personal preference only.

Alot of people dont like to teleport/pod into battle because they are afraid of a whole turn of not being able to move. This is where practice comes into play. Teleporting right next to the enemy a mere few inches away is most certainly suicide, but teleporting around 16-18" away is a good way to balance the worry involved, depending on the enemy unit your going next to.
The risk of teleporting is favorable when you have to consider footsloggin across a baord with little or no terrain. In cityfight, footslogging becomes a bit safer option to implement.

Plus, if teleporting, never leave home without a teleport homer in EVERY squad.
Scattering due to deepstrike isnt pretty.

If you are deepstriking/droppodding, always take the second turn iif you have the choice. If you go first, you are wasting a round and dont have the last word on th last turn to turn the tables in your favor.

I've been playing deathwing for years. Right now the army is on loan to a friend who is tired of me kicking his tau butt with it. DW can be effective if fielded intelligently although heyhav mor than a few bad match ups because of their lack of options. Taking units hat o nnot workwel to compensate is generally worse approach though than fielding an Ac list an learning how best to deploy and use them. In the end you will be severely outnumbered in every match so we need to take a may ACs as we can fit in a cohesive list. from HQ on downevry unit has to maximize its usefulness.
mughi3
Do not take offense but I fnd that list terrible. Why in the world would you take 10 man squads and halve the number of available ACs. DW only works with ACs if you want a chance of winning. Ten man assault squad? Why? Why one large scoring unit that will get shot pieces the turn after it assaults something? All your opponet has to do is backtrack a bit and keep firing. It seem a wasteful DW squad. Sorry I have to say that ... I really am not trying to be rude but I would hate to see anyone copy that list. You have a nine man temie squad with ACs and you give them furious charge? AC squads get tank hunter or nothing at all. Terminatos are yor best option? Its DW. you have to play mostly terminators. Dreads are a fire magnet but they are still our best anti-tank or drop poding unit.
Hellfury
I'm pretty much in agreement on evrything stated. Six man squads make sense but I find I take five man squads to come in at the correct point level more often than not. I've used LRCs and Prometheus in fun games but they really are a point sink ( of the two the Promeheus wins hads down aganst most armes).
I personally love drop poded Dreads. They have never let me down. Apart from being touh they are a great distraction a well.
I rarely teleport or drop pod my termies anymore. Unless the mission objectives require me to take objectives that I might not reach otherwise or I'm playing Tau, I'll footslog. My dreads can take of the rest. They have pods. With a little cover I find my termies do fine.
dude21890
Again, drop the LRC and assault termies. Also ther is no longer any reason to take a master. A libby with FotA and FotD is the preferred choice. If for some reason you need to take an assault squad ( and ignore advice given) then at least use a chappie.