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Posted By vsurma on 09/21/2006 11:47 PM
The reason we are talking about somewhat unrealistic scenarios is that deathwing is a decent army against most...its the ones that might cause trouble that we want to discuss....see if others have good tactics against the nemesis armies... nothing wrong with that.

Nope, nothing wrong with that.

Though, when dealing with unrealistic scenarios, we must include various unknown factors in order to learn from what is being said. Without those factors being addressed, this becomes a long discourse in in frustration and digression.

Some FACTS about DW list building we have (re)learned in this thread.

• ASSAULT CANNONS ARE STILL THE BEST GUN IN THE GAME. This really isnt open for argument, it simply is the best allcomers gun in the game so far as we know.
  

• The more wounds in the army granted by the inclusion of terminators, the less prone we are to fail due to attrition.

• Landraiders are a points sink.

• Assault terminators are sub par when compared to assault cannon wielding terminators.

• Dreadnoughts with twin-linked lascannons and missile launcher are greater than a terminator squad equiped with cyclones for the purposes of fire superiority.

As a thought, Falcon + Star Engines only needs one turn to get out of the ACs reach.

Combined with the near impossibility of damaging it, looks like it will still be nearly invincible and a much better idea to fire what you can until it can't shoot and then waste the rest of the army.

But its alot easier to win with a few more scoring units on the table, esp considering how few Deathwing has to start with! (which is why the naked assualt cannon dreads also appeal to me)



Not 100% in agreement on this one, they are cheap, fast and scoring!
3 of these guyz in a alpha mission can easily turn a losing situation into a almost guaranteed win!
They are decent in other level missions aswell.
Great for taking out that lone bassie in the rear corner aswell...

Sure they die easily enough but people just need to learn that its ok not to shoot every turn!

Far as the falcon is concered well....Were in trouble
But the las/missile dreads might help a little....or the tank hunting termies if those are your cup of tea....

I wouldn't say falcons vs. deathwing is an unrealistic scenario. I play Eldar, so every time I play against our local Deathwing player we have this so-called "unrealistic" scenario taking place.

I keep my falcons' tails pointed outward toward the board edges until the termies arrive (i.e. rear shots impossible). He gets his one shot when he lands, and then I jet out of range and standoff for the rest of the game if I can. If assault cannons are his only ranged weapons, I win.

I'm holding up falcons as an extreme example of a counter-argument to the cult of the almighty assault cannon. Anything that can manage to get or stay outside of 24" is 100% immune to the effects of assault cannons. So over-specializing in assault cannons gives your army an inherent weakness that more than just Eldar might be able to exploit.

Well, the thing is, non-Falcon Fast models usually won't survive the initial attack.

Also, objective based missions are a pain if you have to sit outside of a 30" range around the objectives.

But yeah, I will grant you, ACs are not the be all end all of a list. You should have at least a few TLLC+ML dreads, and perhaps some speeders with ACs would be a good idea to, even though they can't fire on the turn they come down, they can catch things moving to fast for you.
Definitely something to consider.

However, I don't think there is a time when you can seriously consider Cyclones a viable weapon choice.

Also of note, the extra range may not even help you against Fast Skimmers. They can hop over terrain, you can't. It does protect you a bit more when they try and sit outside your range and fire though.

Landraiders are a points sink.

"Not 100% in agreement on this one, they are cheap, fast and scoring!
3 of these guyz in a alpha mission can easily turn a losing situation into a almost guaranteed win!"

You must be the only person in the world who considers Land Raiders cheap and fast and on top of that believes that 3 of them give you a guaranteed win in anything.

True but it can still be done, and with terrain its not really 30".
Also if the opponent has the last turn he actually can stay out of range and just boost on the objective last turn, if he does not have the last turn then he must weather a turn of fire.



Heck, I run piranhas in my 2k tau list....3 of them!

Posted By vsurma on 09/22/2006 2:48 PM
Not 100% in agreement on this one, they are cheap, fast and scoring!
3 of these guyz in a alpha mission can easily turn a losing situation into a almost guaranteed win!
They are decent in other level missions aswell.
Great for taking out that lone bassie in the rear corner aswell...

Sure they die easily enough but people just need to learn that its ok not to shoot every turn!

Are you sure you aren't confusing Land RAIDERS with Land SPEEDERS?

Why is a las/missile Dread better at fire support than a termi unit w/ 2 cyclones ? Sure the dread has the better firepower, but it dies a lot faster as well. As a Tau player I'd much rather see a Dreadnought against me than a termi unit w/ 2 cyclones or 2 ACs as I can kill the dead with one shot easily, but killing 5 termies is a LOT harder.

Posted By Mephet'ran on 09/23/2006 1:21 AM
Why is a las/missile Dread better at fire support than a termi unit w/ 2 cyclones ? Sure the dread has the better firepower, but it dies a lot faster as well. As a Tau player I'd much rather see a Dreadnought against me than a termi unit w/ 2 cyclones or 2 ACs as I can kill the dead with one shot easily, but killing 5 termies is a LOT harder.

Again, this is dependant on whether you need survivability to be key as opposed to fire superiority.

Dreadnogoughts are the clear winner when you need alot of massed high powered ranged weaponry to take place. With the amount they put out, it usually isnt neccesary for them to be on the table very long.

Termies with cylcones on the other hand, offer a very good amount of survivability. Far better than dreads. But they do not amass the same amout of firepower during the game.

I think of it this way. If you have the chance to take out all truly threatening elements towards your high priced terminators early in the game (thus making the terminators even more survivable, once they hit planetside), why would you  risk taking cyclones for the protracted game?

Dreadnoughts = Hard (very high strength) Fast (a larger amount of firepower) but very Fragile

Cyclones = Slow (needs time to take down as much when compared to dreads) but very Tough (alot of tough to kill wounds there)

Against tau, I lean more towards taking the dreads. it comes down to who fires first with them to make their points back in this case againts xv88's. If the tau shoot first, dead dread. If the dread shoots first, two dead xv88's.

And one more thing I forgot to add to my original statement for DW. ALWAYS go second if you have the choice when you deepstrike/drop pod.

Oh....um.....lol
Those would be what I meant....I swear it read speeders up there before.....sure it did!



Except that with 2 shield drones your missiles are doing near nothing (2+ save) and the lascannons are also rather weak considering they have to go through 2, 4+ invul save wounds first...that said the rokkits on termies would do near nothing to the XV88s all game!

Falcons are a bad matchup for Deathwing. That's always been true. I'm not going to dispute that in most situations the Falcon is going to outmaneuver the terminators. This is exactly why we've been screaming about the starcannon for years.

Still, we're talking about one vehicle here. So I'm not overly worried. If you want tactics for dealing with this one threat, then I would say drop in, take your shots, and then pound on it with your 48" range firepower.

Yes, your 48" range firepower. I'm not advocating all assault cannons. For that firepower, the dreads are obviously superior than the cyclone squad. The one area they call short in, as was pointed out, is survivability. But that's fine. Anything that shoots at the dreads takes the pressure off the terminators. And folks always shoot at dreads. They have a definite place in the list, and the best use of them is to provide that long range firepower.

Ezz

P.S.  I miss your AK-47 toting cat, Hellfury.

With all do respect,

ether dude wrote:Remember that powerfists can be turned off in the even that you charge something squishy

Where does this state this in rules?

Im also reading 5 man squads having 2 AC or 2 CML. I do believe in codex states only 1.

dude21890 wrote:Codicier w/ Force weapon, fear of the darkness

Whats with all these random named characters for HQ choices as I can only count 5 special characters for Dar Angels
Azrael, Belial, Sammael, Ezekiel, Belphegor

Just would like to know as I play deathwing. Fun Army. I agree Assult cannons are the weapon of my choice with anti-armour capability and kills infantry fast. Though I agree LR and LRC are expensive terrain I run 2 LRC in a 1750 list. It has its ups and downs but very effective.

YES I FINALLY GET TO USE THIS!

Bosskie wrote:Blah Blah Blah

Sorry bro, you're about 3 1/2 years too late.

My god I was looking at this and wondering WTF is going with these lists.

Should have realized a previous of codex.

Ahh-ha. I saw the dates before i started posting just didn't realize the codex would change that drastic over time.

Why hasn't this been locked? It can't provide any relevant information anymore.

Bosskie wrote:Ahh-ha. I saw the dates before i started posting just didn't realize the codex would change that drastic over time.

As a general rule don't reply to anything over a month old and especially not 3.5 years old. Frankly, no one even remembers this thread let alone cares what you have to say about a 3.5 year old thread talking about a different codex in a different edition.

OK, I'm locking this.

But everyone, be sure to PM Bosskie about his error. I'm sure hilarity will ensue!