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So I guess in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only skulls?

Necros wrote:So I guess in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only skulls?

So GW would have us believe for a long time now.

So I guess in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only skulls?

Yes, but only for the Skull Throne.

Honestly I have no idea where to sit on this, and I think it would be best for most of us to just sit and wait and ride out the storm versus make claims of our own.

And great work Polonius, most of the comments you have made I have needed to read 2-3 times.

personally I am not that surprised that any conversation of GW's IP doesn't include talk of skulls

Skulls, Spiky bits and Space Marines (HURR!) are what GW's IP is built on.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm not sure what your point it. Even though a skull is generic in appearance you can't recast other people's parts and sell them...

So basically... everyone is free to make model skulls and sell them. That's fine. But you can't recast someone else's skulls and sell them, you make your own.

I think the point is that just because someone made the original doesn't mean the law is going to afford them a great deal of protection. With something as generic as a skull the court would weigh on the uniqueness of the design. To whatever degree they determine it is an original design is the fraction of proven damages the court might award. It could be 100% or it could be 1% or it could be 0% with the court handing down instructions to the violator. So while there is an a clear ethical issue, there is also some theoretical line where its very likely to cost a company more to stop a violator than they can recoup. Due to requirements that copyrights and trademarks be defended by the holder, though though one company maybe commitied to unethical activities, an entity has only truely violated the law upon the determination of the court, so without a commital to litigation it won't go to court and thus it hasn't been found to violate the law. Maybe you could call it the civil court equivalent of innocent until proven guilty. Effectively and legally you can go as far as you can, till someone brings you to court, but good luck knowing what that point is.

Da_Viking wrote:Ok just because I want to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion. Where did GW get their design for a skull?
Did they take it from an original human skull (copyright GOD)

Unfortunately for GOD, he did not file a trademark on the human skull with any human government. So he would be hard pressed to defend against any legal challenge given his limited access to lawyers, since few go to Heaven. Also we may be looking at extinction of the human race if GW wins and forces GOD to destroy all of the molds and existing stock of human skulls.

Arschbombe wrote:They've named Paulson Games as a party in the suit as well. Will the GW cops come for my boneswords and lashwhips?

Anyway, I think it's a bit rich for the GW lawyers to include Unfair Competition as part of the suit. The trademark infringement bits are suitable for litigation, but Unfair Competition is a joke. These are the guys who destroyed the independent hobby stores in the UK, right?

http://www.paulsongames.com/resin.html

how can they name these people too , looked at the site and they seem to be making generic bits and no ref to GW truly odd. as for the chapter house thing i can see both sides really its just a shame gw just didn't email them and point out the stuff they should not be doing and make them publish some kind of update as to why any changes had been made . then if all else fails do what they did

i think they should be forced to cease trading in the way they are. they make accesory parts specifically for GW Products and blatantly say so.
there are other companys out there that sell extra parts for well known mini ranges with a lot more care.
We all like the accesorys but should show support to the original IP holder in this case GW.

GW put a lot of time and effot in to there minitures and its not fair another that another company makes money with little care or effot by piggy backing ther entire range off GW.

I just received a C&D from Games Workshop ...

they want me to stop using my skull !!!

the skull helmet having seen the item in the flesh is a direct rip off of games workshop IP Legion of the damned hellmets and chaplins helmets.
dont get me wrong i have the GW pricing structure and there need to get all the cash with the hard sell, but they put the effort in so deserve the rewards.
if it was not for GW's hard work and effort Chapterhouse would be not even exist.

Myrthe wrote:I just received a C&D from Games Workshop ...

they want me to stop using my skull !!!

Lol. I have to sig that to remember this glorious conversation.

Lord Scythican wrote:Looks sculpted to me...

Those skulls are quite obviously press moulded. I use the technique for reproducing meltaguns and the skulls show all the tell tale signs of having gone through the same process. Detail warping, pits where sanded green stuff gets caught, unusual texture, etc. On the smaller door especially, you can see many of the tale tale signs.

Whilst the skulls look suspiciously familiar, I won't say anything else on the matter without owning the doors themselves, but I am 100% sure that they aren't hand sculpted.

ranger1977 wrote:i think they should be forced to cease trading in the way they are. they make accesory parts specifically for GW Products and blatantly say so.
there are other companys out there that sell extra parts for well known mini ranges with a lot more care.
We all like the accesorys but should show support to the original IP holder in this case GW.

GW put a lot of time and effot in to there minitures and its not fair another that another company makes money with little care or effot by piggy backing ther entire range off GW.

Actually, if you go back and read the last 30-something pages, you'll see that the lawyers (REAL, not RULES) in the thread have already covered the "fairness" aspect of it. So, factually speaking, it's quite *fair*.

For the record, the majority of people who buy CH parts *do* show support to GW. We do it by buying their models to put ChapterHouse bits *on*. I think that supporting them with my wallet does count as support, regardless which side I'm on in the "Great GW vs. CH war of 2010/2011."

Also, your automobile manufacturer called. He wants you to return all the parts for your car that you didn't buy from a dealership, as they are replacements which would not be usable, if the manufacturer did not create your car first.

Eric

Myrthe wrote:I just received a C&D from Games Workshop ...

they want me to stop using my skull !!!

I think the fact that most of us continue to give them our money despite the crap they pull on a regular basis (crazy price hikes, dropping army lists, failing to put out models for codexes in a timely fashion, bullyig the little guy be he independent retailer or otherwise,canceling popular specialist games or giving them gak support, letting WD spiral into uselessness, etc., etc.) is proof that we as a collective consumer base are NOT using our skulls (or at least what is in them)...

Just to add fuel to the skull fire, 5th one up on the right (in the image on the left) is a dead ringer for one of the skulls of the old skeleton kit, (the upside down one) same killshot injury too, without scale its impossible to know either way, so its pure speculation.

To be frank, if someone pinched a 3mm wide plastic skull to put into a different model which is an upgrade part for another kit, it doesn't justify a million dollar lawsuit anyway.

CT GAMER wrote:... proof that we as a collective consumer base are NOT using our skulls (or at least what is in them)...

That is because, apparently, ChapterHouse is using them all.




Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:... proof that we as a collective consumer base are NOT using our skulls (or at least what is in them)...

That is because, apparently, ChapterHouse is using them all.




Eric

They probably took mine when I wasn't looking
Lets face it , I was out of it enough

evilmushroom wrote:http://www.paulsongames.com/resin.html
how can they name these people too , looked at the site and they seem to be making generic bits and no ref to GW truly odd. as for the chapter house thing i can see both sides really its just a shame gw just didn't email them and point out the stuff they should not be doing and make them publish some kind of update as to why any changes had been made . then if all else fails do what they did

1.) Welcome Evil Mushroom, have bought from you before
2.) For some reason the GW lawyers assumed that the super heavy CHS walker was sculpted by Jon Paulson, that Paulson therefore worked for CHS and both could be dealt with in a single lawsuit. But Paulson has nothing to do with CHS and the walker, so these are obviouls ytwo cases that have nothing in common.
3.) ATM we don't know IF CHS received a C&D letter. Some assume that they did but thought the law to be on their side.

Kilkrazy wrote:To be frank, if someone pinched a 3mm wide plastic skull to put into a different model which is an upgrade part for another kit, it doesn't justify a million dollar lawsuit anyway.

I don't think anyone was claiming it did, that whole tangent just sort of snuck in here and started jumping around.

I'm sorry but both of these made me laugh:

25. Games Workshop also has a large number of well-known unregistered trade
marks (including names of armies, Chapters, and other products) including without limitation:
“Adeptus Mechanicus”, “Alpha Legion”, “Soul Drinkers”, “Iron Snakes”, “Luna Wolves”,
“Imperial Fist”, “Death Watch”, “Tervigon”, “Blood Ravens”, “Black Templars”, “Legion of the
Damned”, “Salamanders”, “melta gun”, “Carnifex”, “Crimson Fists”, “Blood Angels”, “Death
Watch”, “Celestial Lions”, “Eldar Farseer”, “Thousand Sons”, “Horus Heresy”, “Genestealer”
“Assault Marines”, “Devastator Marines”, and “Tactical Marines”.

That's like saying you can never say those two - three words side by side without ever being feared of getting sued .

38. Chapterhouse makes pervasive references to Games Workshop’s trademarks to
identify its products (and adopts a distinctly British phrasing by use of the term “bits” to
underscore the connection), including without limitation:

Really? Guess being a Canadian I should stop calling people "Mate" or acknowledging things by saying "Aye" since its British/Scottish!

Edit: Just want to add I find it oddly baffling that GW would put so much pressure on a company which is driving their own sales... if you buy the Carnifex to Tervigon conversion kit, you get just that - JUST THE KIT. I still have to go out and buy the Carnifex...

Kroothawk wrote:
3.) ATM we don't know IF CHS received a C&D letter. Some assume that they did but thought the law to be on their side.

What I had heard was that CH received something resembling a C&D letter from GW in the UK... but effectively for reasons to do with how poorly it was written, who within GW wrote it, the format with which it was written, and the citation of British law it wasn't a formal and proper C&D in whatever ways its defined by US law, but that was a lawyers reading and not a courts.

Cryage wrote:That's like saying you can never say those two - three words side by side without ever being feared of getting sued .

That's not actually how trademarks work, and is most definitely not what it's saying.

It doesn't really matter either way. GW has the money to force CHS into bankruptcy defending themselves in court. Even if CHS was legally correct, any victory they could achieve would be Pyrrhic. GW celebrates with a price increase, pushing more rabid fanbois into disgruntled veterans. Newbies come in to replace the fanbois and the cycle continues.

Crimson Devil wrote:It doesn't really matter either way. GW has the money to force CHS into bankruptcy defending themselves in court. Even if CHS was legally correct, any victory they could achieve would be Pyrrhic. GW celebrates with a price increase, pushing more rabid fanbois into disgruntled veterans. Newbies come in to replace the fanbois and the cycle continues.

well the new price increace is not actually gw's fault because over hear in england the vat is increasing and gw is here so they are forced to increase their prices. i hope that cleared that up

and yeah gw could wreck CHS with the legal fees and what-not

ranger1977 wrote:

Hi Eric
i was not saying people who buy CH part don’t support GW, chapterhouse don’t support them and just make money off of them. as to your point about the car dealership generally most second or aftermarket parts are licensed or endorsed by the company, and they pay the manufacture for this privilege.
I find it difficult to see how any one can condone IP theft such as chapterhouse has done.
they use the specific names of black Templers, dark angels, death watch, some pictures use games workshop miniatures in them.
there are other company’s out there that make extra/upgrade parts but advertise them in a different way with less emphasis on the GW aspect. i use third party extra's but would not use CH purely for there attitude towards Other people's IP.

those supposed sculpted skulls in the doors are dead ringers for the old skelli head's.

Probably because anyone that has ever bought anything for an automobile that didn't come from the dealership doesn't view it as IP theft. Maybe it's a UK vs. US difference, and it works different there. If I go buy a part for my car (manufactured by Ford), it isn't necessarily going to come from the Ford Motor Co. and their parts division. The box will have the SPECIFIC name of the car it fits on. What it won't have is the logo, which is where I think the IP theft line would come for me. While CH may have some wording problems, I'm a reasonable person (though maybe not the legal definition of one), and can't seem to draw the connection between "making custom parts" and "we're in your minds, stealing your ips" that the CH detractors in this thread want me to draw. Just because they use the names to denote similar/compatible work I don't think equates to any legal definition of theft, otherwise the auto industry has been perpetuating and allowing theft since at least the 1950s.

ranger1977 wrote:
Hi Eric
i was not saying people who buy CH part don’t support GW, chapterhouse don’t support them and just make money off of them. as to your point about the car dealership generally most second or aftermarket parts are licensed or endorsed by the company, and they pay the manufacture for this privilege.
I find it difficult to see how any one can condone IP theft such as chapterhouse has done.
they use the specific names of black Templers, dark angels, death watch, some pictures use games workshop miniatures in them.
there are other company’s out there that make extra/upgrade parts but advertise them in a different way with less emphasis on the GW aspect. i use third party extra's but would not use CH purely for there attitude towards Other people's IP.

The people at CH are really big fans of GW, many of them own multiple armies. I personally have purchased multiple items from CH and only built two of my armies because of those bits I purchased from CH. That is support. CH promotes the use of GW parts in every way possible without formally saying so.

People aren't condoning IP theft, because it isn't IP theft. As a specific example where has IP been stolen? The standards for showing the theft of IP is higher than the standard you're using to judge CH, if you truly believe your libel.

Just because other companies choose to do something in a different way doesn't mean what CH is doing is illegal. Time and time again its been pointed out that there is a legal basis that specifically allows the use of Trademarked names when its necessary to the character of a product, and that doing so has no implication to the derivation of artistic works. CH's attitude towards IP is the correct one and is based on precedents. The only issue is whether CH has done in enough to keep the less informed that CH has no formal relationship with GW.

The licensing and endorsement by an original manufacturer is something that can occur outside the bounds of IP law. With automobiles, the licensing when it happens usually occurs because Dealers want options, but are locked into agreements with their Manufacturer to follow certain rules when buying parts. By licensing a manufacturer of aftermarket part they are allowing, within the bounds of the existing contracts the Dealers, the Dealer to purchase parts from those other manufacturers. Licensing can also be a matter of venue... "pay this fee and we let you sell through our website," without any basis in IP or even how its manufactured.

Crimson Devil wrote:It doesn't really matter either way. GW has the money to force CHS into bankruptcy defending themselves in court. Even if CHS was legally correct, any victory they could achieve would be Pyrrhic.

This is exactly what I expect to have happen.

-Eric