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nope the skulls are mould's by the look of them and not resculpts.
and if you went to the effort of sculpting why would you do direct copy's.
and how can they argue they are doing conversion parts when they have direct copy's of pre existing parts on there site ?.





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Ilmarinen wrote:I've been reading all the different strands of the discussion on various forums and I've realised the particular aspect I'm really annoyed about.

I hope that Chapterhouse do come off badly from this, because they have stirred up a ****storm that was totally avoidable. Whoever wins this case, there could be bad ramifications for both GW and/or other bits makers.

The blatant arrogance that CHS have displayed in every thread I've seen (from way back) now threatens to impact on a lot of other people in the hobby ...all because CHS couldn't be bothered to be subtle and, dare I say it, respectful to GW's IP. If anyone else is affected badly by this in the future (like Paulson for a start) it's all Chapterhouse's fault.

There are ways of making bits that GW haven't/won't get round to, that people want, while making a little money from it, without ****ing all over the GW brand (both in terms of subtle marketing and quality of product).

It's a shame really, because I remember discussing the lack of product support for the Salamanders on B&C a very long time ago, just before CHS started. Who'd have thought their badly sculpted 'dragon' head logos would lead to such a massive disaster?!

thats what i have been trying to say.

aka_mythos wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Which is one of the reasons GW is sueing them, for using GW trademarks to identify products which GW beleives gives a false impression that they are official models.

When it comes to marketing and the naming of products the court tends to be very liberal acknowledging the looseness of words and hyperbole needed to sell any product. There is a basis for CH legal use, the court will attempt to discern CH intent, whether it was to confuse and while this might not alter a ruling, its significantly alters the damages. If CH was attempting to use the names in a fair way, but just failed to, they may have to make some restitution, but they aren't likely to get shut down.

Gibbsey wrote:
Its the difference betweed saying "[Game] Add on" and "Add on for [Game]" the first one sounds official and leads to confusion.

CH is allowed to sound official in its own right. I bought from CH and I knew what I was buying. The court will not necessarily look at in that way. The examples being used are not by any means true examples of the application of law; they just give a sense of how hairs can be split. The court may find both are exceptable or neither are exceptable, based on the rest of the atmosphere of the CH presentation of its product offering. Phrasing by itself is not a violation, nor is the inclusion of a TM'ed name.

The point you really should be trying to make is that the phrasing and naming is contibutory to brand confusion.

The thing people fail to consider is the CH made active attempts to avoid confusion, they double checked with their lawyer not just for the actual pieces they made, but for the iconography, and naming of those pieces in an attempt to do what was in their rights as third party makers without violating GW's rights.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Which is one of the reasons GW is sueing them, for using GW trademarks to identify products which GW beleives gives a false impression that they are official models.

Did you see the original site? "Shoulder pads for Space Marines" "Products for Tyranids." I thought it was "Space Marine Shoulder Pads" "Tyranid ..." which does not imply they are unofficial.

Its the difference betweed saying "[Game] Add on" and "Add on for [Game]" the first one sounds official and leads to confusion.

You seem to be falling into the trap I mentioned (confusing "the poster's view of what they think the law is, rather then what it actually is"); I urge you to review Polonius' excellent posts above, with special attention to his post on PEI v. Welles. I will also quote Justice Holmes' decision in Prestonettes v. Coty (as did the court in PEI);

When the mark is used in a way that does not deceive the public, we see no such sanctity in the word as to prevent its being used to tell the truth. It is not taboo.
Now, this is not to say that there is not a line that can be crossed, nor that I am stating that in my professional opinion CH did not cross it

My point is that GW is suggesting that the naming (also chapterhouse's top banner) is confusing, if the court finds that CH use was not clear enough and can mislead people into thinking they are official

[quoteBuzzsaw]You seem to be falling into the trap I mentioned (confusing "the poster's view of what they think the law is, rather then what it actually is");

How so?

These wordings are different:
"Shoulder pads for Space Marines", "Products for Tyranids." and "Space Marine Shoulder Pads", "Tyranid ..."

I was pointing out the fact that the first two wordings are a lot clearer and the second two while it may be ruled legal is very different and less clear, saying they are the same thing is a little misleading

When the mark is used in a way that does not deceive the public, we see no such sanctity in the word as to prevent its being used to tell the truth. It is not taboo.

This is the point, if GW can prove that it does "deceive the public" then they have a case against CH.



Also The Skull is really pushing it guys... the only way that would be a problem is if multiple skulls in same position etc are found and GW can prove that CH based the mould on their sprue.


Also, ChapterHouse... should you be discussing ongoing legal stuff?

It's hilarious how instead of providing actual competition to chapterhouse by providing the conversion bits in question for adequate and reasonable prices. They just sue away any fair competition.

Someone earlier on compared what Chapterhouse is doing to selling generic car parts for brand name cars. This kind of competition is just the incentive GW needs to actually treat their customers with some respect, like lower prices for mass produced plastic that costs them pennies to produce, and updating armies and mini ranges that have been neglected and alienated in favor of the latest quick cash release.

It's actually ironic that GW would sue for "unfair competition" when that's exactly what this lawsuit is. An attempt to destroy your competition with lawsuits rather than quality customer service.

What Chapterhouse does is exactly what GW needs to start making good business decisions that pay off heavily in the long run, and create an awesome reputation.

Compare any new WD to old WDs from a few years ago and you see how this thing has shifted from Hobby into BUY BUY BUY overpriced quick cash, juice the customers for all their worth. GW should have to pay you to read those glorified advertisement catalogs.

I also think it's hilarious to see all the spelling errors of Trademarks in GW's own legal document. What is a CARNIFLEX? The latest bodybuilding meat shake?? I wonder how that will impact the lawsuit...

ranger1977 wrote:nope the skulls are mould's by the look of them and not resculpts.
and if you went to the effort of sculpting why would you do direct copy's.
and how can they argue they are doing conversion parts when they have direct copy's of pre existing parts on there site ?.

Maybe CH sculpted one skull, then took casts of that skull as a basis for creating more skulls? I assume this would be more efficient and result in more consistent skulls (in terms of scale and proportion, etc.).

ChankTheLank wrote:It's hilarious how instead of providing actual competition to chapterhouse by providing the conversion bits in question for adequate and reasonable prices. They just sue away any fair competition.

Someone earlier on compared what Chapterhouse is doing to selling generic car parts for brand name cars. This kind of competition is just the incentive GW needs to actually treat their customers with some respect, like lower prices for mass produced plastic that costs them pennies to produce, and updating armies and mini ranges that have been neglected and alienated in favor of the latest quick cash release.

It's actually ironic that GW would sue for "unfair competition" when that's exactly what this lawsuit is. An attempt to destroy your competition with lawsuits rather than quality customer service.

What Chapterhouse does is exactly what GW needs to start making good business decisions that pay off heavily in the long run, and create an awesome reputation.

Compare any new WD to old WDs from a few years ago and you see how this thing has shifted from Hobby into BUY BUY BUY overpriced quick cash, juice the customers for all their worth. GW should have to pay you to read those glorified advertisement catalogs.

I also think it's hilarious to see all the spelling errors of Trademarks in GW's own legal document. What is a CARNIFLEX? The latest bodybuilding meat shake??

Yeah we should totally get Privater Press to start making space marines! or people coming out with "Warhammer 40k" magazines, that would be totally fair for say EA games to start pumping out warhammer games aswell right!!!!!!111!!111One111!

I beleive GW's point is that CH is moving in to close to their IP which would be unfair competition, just like GW making Warmachine models would be unfair competition.

Ranger got a point: The SciFi shoulder pad idea is indeed stolen

Kroothawk wrote:Ranger got a point: The SciFi shoulder pad idea is indeed stolen

Well, if we wanna be completely honest, the entire idea of Space Marines in Power Armor is, indeed, stolen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

Most of 40k is borrowed from star wars and dune anyway.

I think any serious nerd/geek/dork/etc knows that all GW fluff and much of its style is essentially a composite of Dune, World History, Aliens (movie), Starshiptroopers (books), and so. I don't think anyone couldn't catch onto many of these sometimes obvious themes, they are pretty obvious. (ie, SpaceHulk is basically Aliens the game)

The difference is that GW took these ideas and themes and recreated their own mythos from it that is unique enough from any one example that it stands apart.

CH on the other hand is not making anything new, they are in many cases directly imitating (if not straight coping) GW pieces. Other third party providers I feel generally add a bit of there own flare. (and it illegal to not wear 14 pieces of flare)

And like others have said right or wrong, CH have pushed this situation to a head by being in the forefront of blatantly naming your stuff with 4oK names in the third company market. Honestly the outcome of this case could have some interesting ripples throughout the current industry. By either making GW possibly more blood thirsty or by opening the flood gates to Pink Mareen nock-offs

Hashshashin wrote: (and it is illegal to not wear 14 pieces of flare)

lol...this gave me a chuckle

Hashshashin wrote:
CH on the other hand is not making anything new, they are in many cases directly imitating (if not straight coping) GW pieces. Other third party providers I feel generally add a bit of there own flare. (and it illegal to not wear 14 pieces of flare)

Which is exactly what companies like this one are doing:

http://www.myhotmustang.com/

That web site even has a wide variety of "pony" emblems that you can purchase that are direct copies of the Ford Mustang logo. The auto industry doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and this has been going on for decades. They also repeatedly say things like "Mustang Accessories," "Mustang Body Kits," "Mustang Performance Parts;" they never say anything like "accessories that can be used with a Ford Mustang."

Walls of text make baby Jebus cry.

I don’t know why people keep comparing GW and chapterhouse to Car manufactures?
The Business plans are completely different.
And for everybody including one of my friends who is creating an army round some of these upgrades, the worst case is GW bans all third party parts from any official GW locations or tournament's as is there right.
So weather GW wins or loses, its us that will inevitably pay the price.
and would it kill chapterhouse to be more creative and copy less?

ranger1977 wrote:And for everybody including one of my friends who is creating an army round some of these upgrades, the worst case is GW bans all third party parts from any official GW locations or tournament's as is there right.
So weather GW wins or loses, its us that will inevitably pay the price.

You're already paying that price... most GW-sanctioned tournaments have had prohibitions on using non-GW miniatures since at least the early '90s.

GW winning a lawsuit here won't make any difference to tournament rules.

ranger1977 wrote:I don’t know why people keep comparing GW and chapterhouse to Car manufactures?

Because that is how precedents work?

ranger1977 wrote:I don’t know why people keep comparing GW and chapterhouse to Car manufactures?
The Business plans are completely different.

How are they "completely different"? Just because one makes car parts and the other makes models doesn't mean that a comparison between them can't be made...

I mean I'm perfectly willing to accept that it's a bs comparison and that the two are completely different, providing someone can back that opinion up with enough proof. Until then I will keep saying it's the same exact thing: third-party manufacturer making parts that are intentionally designed to supplement another company's product.

ranger1977 wrote:I don’t know why people keep comparing GW and chapterhouse to Car manufactures?
The Business plans are completely different.

Business plans have nothing to do with it. Did you mean 'industries'?

The comparison has been drawn (many times ) as a manufacturer creates a product (car) and a second manufacturer creates products which are used with the main product, either as replacement parts or styling or performance upgrades; no permission is required by the second manufacturer to do this, no licensing fees are paid to the first manufacturer, and sometimes in direct competition with the first manufacturer.

Also raised as a comparison was mobile phone accessories - e.g. protective case for an iPhone.

GW vs. Chapterhouse: The British Comedy Edition

EXT. OUTHOUSE

Various grunting and gurgling sounds, followed by the noise of a TOILET FLUSHING.

CHAPTERHOUSE GUY emerges from the outhouse.

CHAPTERHOUSE GUY: This week, I have mostly been casting in lead...

(He returns to the outhouse)

CUT TO:

INT. COURT ROOM

NAN (PROSECUTING): Shoulder pads? SHOULDER PADS? What a f---ing liberty!

LAUREN (DEFENDANT): Am I bovvered though?

Thirty seven pages! We've laughed, we've cried. Now let's have peace on this subject until there is some actual development.