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Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

Alpharius wrote:Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

But you know what though I agree with whoever it was who said that GW has to protect their IP rights. It sucks but this is a hard one to swallow. If chapterhouse is though really an LLC the owner directly should be safe... should. As from the way my Lawyers tell me if an LLC get's sued then they can only go after the sole holdings of the company, but if it is a sole proprietorship then he's screwed 6 ways to sunday.

ender502 wrote:
Well,in any civil suit,everything is overdramatized. If you go in there with,"Oh,well they did this to me,but it's not really a huge deal,"then you're not going to get anything.

As far as "great and irreparable injury",they certainly have a case. Wasn't the rumored Tyranid 2nd wave suppossed to include both a Tervigon kit and a direct-only Warrior Bonesword upgrade sprue? If people are buying Chapterhouse's conversions,then they're not buying GW's Tervigon kit or upgrade sprue when they come out(or are less likely,anyways). The Tervigon kit will probably be at least a $50 kit like the Trygon,while the Carnifex kit Chapterhouse's conversion is based off of is $45,so GW loses money there. If people are buying Chapterhouse's Boneswords,then people aren't buying GW's sprue,so they lose money there,too. Ultimately,Chapterhouse's entire buisness is based off infringing on GW's IP,copyrights,and trademarks,so whatever "great and irreparable injury" GW has taken is pretty much every dollar Chapterhouse has ever made.

If Chapterhouse was first to the punch with "alien swords" they might be able to go after GW if GW made a product that drew potential customers away from Chapterhouse's "alien sword" product...first in time means everything.

Interesting take; I don't agree. There is no right to a monopoly here - simply competing in the same space for the same customers is how it's supposed to work. Making compatible (replacement) parts has a pretty solid legal history (e.g., non-OEM/generic replacement parts for cars), though I've never seen the argument stretched to a field like this one.

Off the top of my head, I'd say GW's best copyright claim would be the inducement to modify their "sculptures" (see the CleanFlicks case), but given GW's long history of promoting conversions, it'll be harder to argue that breaching the integrity of their sculptures is harmful. While every conversion is a derivative work, GW has arguably given its customers permission to create such derivative works.

Alpharius wrote:Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

I would agree. But knowledgeable gamers aren't necessarily a good standard to base such a judgment on. We are, in our own weird way, experts in this field. What about the guy that is trying to buy his kid a christmas present and has limited information to go on?

ender502

ender502 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

I would agree. But knowledgeable gamers aren't necessarily a good standard to base such a judgment on. We are, in our own weird way, experts in this field. What about the guy that is trying to buy his kid a christmas present and has limited information to go on?

Yeah, but part of the determination for customer confusion is whether the goods are sold in the same channels, too. The guy trying to buy a christmas present is fairly unlikely to be confronted with both Chapterhouse's products and GW's at the same time, I think.

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet. lol,

To me, and the IP knowledge I have from my line of business, I would tend to agree with ender502's assessment. Kinda sucks Paulson got dragged into it, since the 'super heavy walker' (Tau Titan) although clearly is designed along Tau aesthetics, it represents to my knowledge at least a unique concept and design. Frankly, were it on infinity's site, I wouldn't have batted an eye. Other than the fact infinity doesn't do vehicles, much less giant one's lol.

It's a shame Pyriel and Nick are going to have to confront this, whether it was coming or not, as they clearly put a lot of time and effort into their products... So long as they weren't making bits GW did, I didn't personally have an issue, moral or otherwise, with their stuff.

Janthkin wrote:
If Chapterhouse was first to the punch with "alien swords" they might be able to go after GW if GW made a product that drew potential customers away from Chapterhouse's "alien sword" product...first in time means everything.

Interesting take; I don't agree. There is no right to a monopoly here - simply competing in the same space for the same customers is how it's supposed to work. Making compatible (replacement) parts has a pretty solid legal history (e.g., non-OEM/generic replacement parts for cars), though I've never seen the argument stretched to a field like this one.

Off the top of my head, I'd say GW's best copyright claim would be the inducement to modify their "sculptures" (see the CleanFlicks case), but given GW's long history of promoting conversions, it'll be harder to argue that breaching the integrity of their sculptures is harmful. While every conversion is a derivative work, GW has arguably given its customers permission to create such derivative works.

I really wont say much regarding this issue until its finished up (the smart thing to do legally).

I will say GW was pretty gakky for starting it up 2 days before Christmas, we have better things to do then worry about this when we are supposed to be with our families.

Can anyone truly say they didn't see this coming? I'm a fan of a few of chapterhouses things, but it always seemed to me like they were skirting the line and willfully pointed it out. They could've benefited with a little subtlety on their part.

I will say GW was pretty gakky for starting it up 2 days before Christmas, we have better things to do then worry about this when we are supposed to be with our families.

Because lawyers don't have families! 2 Days before Christmas is still a business day, they aren't obligated to be sentimental to your vacation.

NELS1031 wrote:Can anyone truly say they didn't see this coming? I'm a fan of a few of chapterhouses things, but it always seemed to me like they were skirting the line and willfully pointed it out. They could've benefited with a little subtlety on their part.

You're a Ravens fan...so shut up.

ender502, who loves the Ravens/Steelers rivalry.

Also hard to argue why selling shoulder pads decreases sales of Space marines. Everytime I buy from Chapterhouse, I buy more from GW.
If it is not illegal to sell parts for a Ford truck, I don't understand why it should be illegal to sell parts for GW miniatures per se, if all R and T and C signs are used.

Anyone knows more why the superheavy is mentioned? I am not aware of any GW product coming near it. Nor can I see a link to Paulson Games, as the sculptor is Zac Soden.

is there anything legally that can be done that would prevent chapterhouse from fullfilling orders before the case is decided? Could we be looking at a possible get it while you still can? Or would the day to day operations be safe till a legal ruling is handed down?

As someone who used to live in cook county....I can assure you that the winner of this case will likely be the side that "greases" the cogs of the legal system

They've probably got a bee in their bonnet about the walker looking like a Tau construct.



Anyway, as others have said, Chapterhouse have always stated that they stand on firm legal ground. Now is the time to see how much weight those statements carry.

Unfortunately, unless you have a hell of a good judge, it matters little if you are in the legal right or not. Anyone can sue anyone and hope they cry uncle because of the legal cost.

ironicsilence wrote:is there anything legally that can be done that would prevent chapterhouse from fullfilling orders before the case is decided? Could we be looking at a possible get it while you still can? Or would the day to day operations be safe till a legal ruling is handed down?

As someone who used to live in cook county....I can assure you that the winner of this case will likely be the side that "greases" the cogs of the legal system

FIRESALE!! what, wait, who said that

and your jurys/judges like fast food

Go Nick! Good luck man!

Yikes..

and good luck Avatars of War..

Sorry to hear about this. Definitely david and goliath here from a standpoint of legal resources... would be a shame for Chapterhouse to have to cave simply due to costs if they have a case.

Also, to the ravens fan- I'm a ravens fan, too, and of course it was a poor show to file it right before Christmas.

We (hobbyists) really appreciate all you guys have done... hope it works out decently for you in all this.

Empchild wrote:43. Exacerbating the injury to Games Workshop’s reputation, the quality of many of
Defendants’ products is materially inferior to the quality of Games Workshop’s originals, which
will cause injury to Games Workshop’s reputation among purchasers of Defendants’ products in
the original or secondary markets.

That part does make me laugh. GW has injured its own repuation just fine, before chapterhouse came along and will long after.

A Black Ram wrote:Yikes..

and good luck Avatars of War..

Avatars of war don't mention GW at all though, the only thing that they might have a problem with is the 'Lizardman Hero' as I think Lizardman is a Trademark, but they do look remarkably the same, but they could just put that down to similar artistic inspiration?

The term "Lizardman" I doubt can be trademarked.

Now, if it were "Saurus", there might have been an issue.

I just had a very important question asked. Will a customer who has an order receive their order and will business be ran as normal?

Yes, and if in fact we are ordered to stop selling our products, you will receive a refund or products we were not able to ship.

Chapterhouse wrote:Unfortunately, unless you have a hell of a good judge, it matters little if you are in the legal right or not. Anyone can sue anyone and hope they cry uncle because of the legal cost.

I'm not an IP lawyer, or even a litigator, but alas they have the crux of the real strategy here.

On issues of substantive law, Janthkin has explained more than I could. The problem is that winning this case could cost tens of thousands of dollars.

And yes, an initial pleading should read like the defendant has done the worst thing imaginable. You're advocating for your client, not trying to be fair.

Janthkin wrote:

ender502 wrote:
Well,in any civil suit,everything is overdramatized. If you go in there with,"Oh,well they did this to me,but it's not really a huge deal,"then you're not going to get anything.

As far as "great and irreparable injury",they certainly have a case. Wasn't the rumored Tyranid 2nd wave suppossed to include both a Tervigon kit and a direct-only Warrior Bonesword upgrade sprue? If people are buying Chapterhouse's conversions,then they're not buying GW's Tervigon kit or upgrade sprue when they come out(or are less likely,anyways). The Tervigon kit will probably be at least a $50 kit like the Trygon,while the Carnifex kit Chapterhouse's conversion is based off of is $45,so GW loses money there. If people are buying Chapterhouse's Boneswords,then people aren't buying GW's sprue,so they lose money there,too. Ultimately,Chapterhouse's entire buisness is based off infringing on GW's IP,copyrights,and trademarks,so whatever "great and irreparable injury" GW has taken is pretty much every dollar Chapterhouse has ever made.

If Chapterhouse was first to the punch with "alien swords" they might be able to go after GW if GW made a product that drew potential customers away from Chapterhouse's "alien sword" product...first in time means everything.

Interesting take; I don't agree. There is no right to a monopoly here - simply competing in the same space for the same customers is how it's supposed to work. Making compatible (replacement) parts has a pretty solid legal history (e.g., non-OEM/generic replacement parts for cars), though I've never seen the argument stretched to a field like this one.

Off the top of my head, I'd say GW's best copyright claim would be the inducement to modify their "sculptures" (see the CleanFlicks case), but given GW's long history of promoting conversions, it'll be harder to argue that breaching the integrity of their sculptures is harmful. While every conversion is a derivative work, GW has arguably given its customers permission to create such derivative works.

I just wanted to mention that this is actually not the case: GW gives permission in their rules of conversion in the legal section of their site that ONE converted model is ok, but multiple copies of a single model is considered an infringement on their intellectual property. This is actually available information in the legal section of their website (I was bored in a grad school class 2 years ago and found it). So no, they do not give customers permission to create derivitive "works"-just a single piece of derivitive work. I'd say look it up on GWs site-it's definitely there. Hope this helps. It's too bad, because Chapterhouse materials look amazing, but I can understand why GW is as mad as they are-I'd like to see Chapterhouse stay open, but I recognize that they probably won't.

Chapterhouse wrote:I really wont say much regarding this issue until its finished up (the smart thing to do legally).

I will say GW was pretty gakky for starting it up 2 days before Christmas, we have better things to do then worry about this when we are supposed to be with our families.

definitely don't comment too much. the battlefoam lawsuit witness incident should be proof enough that lawyers DO search the niche forums for evidence. as for the rest, yeah, it's pretty scrooge-y of them to do it just before christmas. either way, i'll be donating to your legal defense fund/placing an order for cool bits that i've been procrastinating on buying because i don't own the models they happen to fit on.. and will now have to buy those kits from GW too. GW should be THANKING you...

Will you be starting a legal defense fund?

As for the quality issue I can say I have bought stuff from CH and I can complain about none of it. It has all been equal or better standards than some of the GW stuff that I have received and most of the forgeworld stuff.

If GW wants to cry about infringement lets take a look at that skiff that looks a lot (almost identicle) like a vehicle in a well known movie called star wars....then lets take a look at the tau army and vehicles that look remarkably like...yep...star wars. Necrons not only look but act like the terminator and the word Eldar has been used for years so how the feth can you copyright that?!? The fact that they want to cry about irreparable damage by CH for PREVENTING them from selling stuff because CH sells it is assinine and unforgivable. I can understand the need to make CH look like the bad guys but they have had AMPLE opportunity to make these models and bits and have not done it. Maybe CH should ask them to show their development for said bits to prove that they can not sell them....what a bunch of ass hats.

Nick I wish you the best of luck. Your stuff was the ONLY reason I did a Salamanders marine army so GW should thank you for the $1000 I spent with them because of the $100 I spent with you on stuff they refuse to make. I do think you got a little blatent on your website with comparisons and models but I am no lawyer so I do not know the legal limit.

Fishboy wrote:...
If GW wants to cry about infringement lets take a look at that skiff that looks a lot (almost identicle) like a vehicle in a well known movie called star wars....then lets take a look at the tau army and vehicles that look remarkably like...yep...star wars. Necrons not only look but act like the terminator and the word Eldar has been used for years so how the feth can you copyright that?!? The fact that they want to cry about irreparable damage by CH for PREVENTING them from selling stuff because CH sells it is assinine and unforgivable. I can understand the need to make CH look like the bad guys but they have had AMPLE opportunity to make these models and bits and have not done it. Maybe CH should ask them to show their development for said bits to prove that they can not sell them....what a bunch of ass hats.
...

Well, they trademarked the name "Imperial Guard". Perhaps they also cornered the market on La Grande Armee and will be suing the government of France?

As I'm also named in the suit I'm choosing not to comment on the particulars until my lawyer says it's ok.

However one point that I want to clear up is that I have never been a business associate of Chapterhouse nor even so much as spoken to Nick until Iafter I recieved the letter and called him to ask "wtf why are they saying I'm involved with your company?" I have had absolutely no connection to the super heavy assault walker kit at any point, I had absolutely no hand in it's design, creation or manufactuer. GW got their information on that completely wrong and have me confused with someone else.

Stop talking, both of you :]