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The problem is, that graphic also shows things we currently will not get, like the intact scenery.
If they dip below Robot levels it gets worse.
If someone compares the graphic to earlier versions that had a lot of silhouettes indicating future content bring up the value of the package, and realize that isn't going to be included showing the package is not as high a value as Mantic intended it to be (but still the same price) it is even worse.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Everything we've hit already (Edwyn, Co-op play rules, intact buildings) is now LOCKED IN. We will fund it even if we drop back, so NEVER FEAR! We will add new stretch goals to replace those ones because they're done and dusted.
Mantic is picking up the tab for intact buildings and stuff, adds credibility to Looky Likey's suspicions about "fake" stretch goals.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
I know that my opinion of the community (or various individuals in it) has been going down steadily as a result of the Deadzone and Mars Attacks campaigns. A fuss over "fake" stretch goals just adds more people to that list.
Because you have two options:
#1: "Hey, guys, we announced that that goal was unlocked, and because people have pledged expecting those items, we're still going to make them."
#2: "Hey, guys, the pledge level dropped below the level for that item and now we're no longer doing those now."
and you have to be a complete idiot to choose #2.
I can only wonder how long it will take for Kickstarter to add ignore buttons and extreme comment moderation to their website...
Yeah, I am guessing they assume they will make enough in after project sales (via pledge manager and retail) to cover the costs of production of re-locked goals. Accepting the risk of a lower profit margin to do so. I suspect they ran the numbers and are comfortable with the risk. Good for them and for us backers. Knowing the intact terrain is in makes me more likely to keep my pledge at its current level.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's throw the brakes on the crazy train here
We've locked them in for one simple reason: to stop people panicking and backing out because they don't think they're gonna get robots or whatever. The plan is that this (in addition to the rather spiffy plan we've come up with involving lots of cool stuff) will get things moving back in the right direction, so we end up funding them again anyway!
Yes, by adding new stretch goals over the top we take a bit of a financial hit, and there's a chance this might backfire and lead to more of a financial hit, but we're willing to take that risk - especially because backsliding risks causing more panic and causing more losses.
lagoon83 wrote: Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's throw the brakes on the crazy train here
We've locked them in for one simple reason: to stop people panicking and backing out because they don't think they're gonna get robots or whatever. The plan is that this (in addition to the rather spiffy plan we've come up with involving lots of cool stuff) will get things moving back in the right direction, so we end up funding them again anyway!
Yes, by adding new stretch goals over the top we take a bit of a financial hit, and there's a chance this might backfire and lead to more of a financial hit, but we're willing to take that risk - especially because backsliding risks causing more panic and causing more losses.
Does that make sense? I hope so!
Nah, I prefer the conspiracy theory stuff. I like to think the companies that produce toys are evil to the core.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
The aforementioned early $300 pledge levels combined with a lack of things to spend it on is a big part of this.
kinda, this *is* a wargame. you are meant to have multiples of units (who only ever has one squad of tactical marines?), people just don't get that.
This completed sculpted and had some prints made, that's very different to spending the 10s of 000s of $$$ to get the tools made so they can produce it. that money pays for the tools, and contributes to recouping the sculpting costs back.
they buy them in, they didn't pay any development.
dz "issues" was scaremongering by leaks into the community and second hand wrong information. wasn't someone going roudn saying that we wouldn't get any enforcers? what actually happened? give us 5 more free now and the rest later, and then give us the rulebook PDF and then give us production models.
and who can make that promise? if something did go wrong, you'd never trust them again.
actually this campaign is no different to deadzone.
with deadzone, you paid $150 at the start for 4 $35 sets and they threw mercenaries and scenery in, and even an extra faction starter.
with mars attacks, you paid $150 at the start for a $75 game, and $125 credit. the stretch goals made the equivalent of mercenaries (which got thrown in), and then new infantry and heroes that went into and filled your credit.
You didn't pay any more in either case, actually, both have constantly been added too, only with Mars Attacks, you get to pick what you add thrown in.
which may give the feeling you've haven't had anything added, because all you did was redistribute your credit, but it's actually the same IMHO, when you look at this graphic, it really shows off everything you've get... and if you don't want the mats for instance, you just build your own.
and actually, at nearly $600. you'd get all of this nearly twice...
I'm only repeating back what I've read in this thread and elsewhere when it comes to variety, personally I was going to use the Martians as counts as Necrons, which I can just about field a playable army with conversion work. More conversion work than I expected to, but do able.
Creating sculpts is still an expensive activity, it represents a large investment to sculpt all of the minis that we have been shown (and a few more that seem to be in their back pocket) would be a large amount to just waste. Nobody is expecting or saying they have the tools ready done, but how many companies can afford to produce sculpts with no idea that they are going to be produced? This implies that they expected to produce these sculpts (hence fake stretch goals) and thus that they misjudged the stretch goals.
I might have mistook DZ for DB, I neither play or have any interest in them so I might have them mixed up, one of them most definitely had a mix metal and plastic minis delivered when people were expecting all plastic. Mantic have fessed up to the lack of prior warning and choice over this issue but I have not seen any statement saying this will not happen again or if it does then you'll get the choice. If you have such a statement then let me know as it'll go a long way to settling down my fears.
Note I didn't compare the contents of DZ or DB kickstarters, you did, I have no knowledge of those so I can't comment on them. However the MA credit system sounds completely different from the way you describe it as you have far more choice, now if you don't actually want enough of anything for your credit (which others have said not me) then what good is it? At $125 credit its easy to spend, at the $450 credit I have its a bit harder. I'm an unusual case but the ready done sets are worthless to me as I only want the Martians. I have to sit down tomorrow with a pen and paper and workout the best deal for me and if I still want to stay in.
solkan wrote:I know that my opinion of the community (or various individuals in it) has been going down steadily as a result of the Deadzone and Mars Attacks campaigns. A fuss over "fake" stretch goals just adds more people to that list.
Because you have two options:
#1: "Hey, guys, we announced that that goal was unlocked, and because people have pledged expecting those items, we're still going to make them."
#2: "Hey, guys, the pledge level dropped below the level for that item and now we're no longer doing those now."
and you have to be a complete idiot to choose #2.
I can only wonder how long it will take for Kickstarter to add ignore buttons and extreme comment moderation to their website...
Actually the fake stretch goals comment (and I think I was first to use that phrase has zero to do with things being rolled back with the total going down. It is everything to do with Mantic having stretch goals for things that were always going to be included in the set and would have to be included in the set for that set to actually be playable and be good value for money.
Black Nexus wrote:well, if they could afford it the whole time, they'd lock in the bug too wouldn't they? which they ain't doing yet.
i suspect they'll just find a different way to fund it, either take a hit on their overall profit or maybe borrow or something.
eitehr way, i feel assured we're getting what we're paying for now.
Locking in what we've already unlocked is a good, smart move. If they announced that they had to roll back somethings then they'd probably lose a lot more backers. I'd like to see the bug make it, but I it'd be a big climb down to include that now when they already lowered the level for it and pretty much gave it away at that level too. It would set a bad precedent IMO.
A shame to see this campaign sliding backwards. I'm not involved, but I can respect how hard it is on a creator and the backers to see it happen. I watched another slide back and struggle through the middle earlier this year, and had to figuratively talk a few people off ledges while it happened.
Hopefully the last 48 hours does the project some good, even if it's not a big spike, at least a reasonably strong finish.
Azazelx wrote:It's those $300 levels they added in the middle of the campaign...
It's a few things. The campaign will probably still hit $500k, but you have:
1.) Tons of early bird (encourage early pledging)
2.) The $300 levels in the middle of the campaign, which was only available for a limited time period (encourage early pledging, and encourages sitting on multiple pledge levels with different accounts).
3.) Two different bonuses which are available only if you pledge before X date (encourage early pledging).
They all combine to push most fence sitters who pay attention before the end to pledge early, and to pledge for more than they actually want. Not only is the deal less good at the end (less draw for end of campaign pledgers), but removing extra pledges will lower the overall total from those pledgers.
I'm hoping bonuses like #3 start getting phased out. They always leave a bad taste in my mouth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/08 15:41:56
"Pledge by X" rewards can be sticky. Wyrd's RPGKS campaign did the same thing, with the expected results; some people who joined after the date (or dropped only to return) expressed frustration or feeling cheated out of the full value/rewards. Early Birds to bring in a big pile of initial funding I can't argue with (though there's a grey area there as well, such as the Shadows of Brimstone campaign with GIANT leaps and tiny quantities for their initial EB tiers).
EB pledges are available for late pledgers generally if you're patient (unless it's a really good campaign or a really good deal on the early birds).
This campaign is just a combination of all those oddities creating a strange pledging pattern.
As I said though - I'll be surprised if it doesn't still end up over $500k in the end. I just think Mantic (and other companies running kickstarters) should avoid "pledge before X" rewards.
They're also definitely going to avoid credit systems in the future. They tried to appease people who'd complain that they didn't want a particular stretch goal but it just didn't work. Now people complain that the stretch goals aren't free enough (even though they are!).
I'd like to think that there are people out there who are more relaxed than I am, and will just check a project when they back it and shortly before it ends!
Also just want to say that I'm very happy with how the campaign's been run so far, and would be overjoyed if we can make it past the half mill point.
Having said that, there were a lot of tempting silhouettes on the various expansion packs last week - would be great to get some of those locked in too...
Here's my takes on what went well and what didn't with this KS:
Good ideas:
1. Credit system
Allowing swap-outs in the base pledge level was fantastic, something I wanted in Deadzone and now have gotten with this. The choice it offers is great, no more having to mess around with post-KS trading to offload the stuff I don't want.
Bad ideas:
1. Multiple stacked discount of credit system.
Takes too much effort to calculate and see the value. If the $150 pledge was $75 game + $75 of add-ons it would have been simple.. then all the add-ons could have been priced lower (at the 50% discount mark) to properly show off what a good deal they are.
End result would be the same, just without the extra maths. Also, it would allow people to access the better discount outside of their base pledge levels, this is something that is putting me off of adding to my $150 pledge - anything I buy with the $125 pledge credit in IA effectively gets another 25% discount on top... but if I add-on more cash then that doesn't benefit from that, making adding $50-$75
There is no good option for people who want to pledge around $225 for $150 pledge + a few extras, the most common pledge average total in all mantic KS's so far.
2. BotB weekend and time-limited freebies.
Frontloaded the campaign to death.
3. Awkward conditional freebies instead of just throwing them into $150 pledges.
I really think you need big FREE stickers on the main pledge level graphic to get people to figure out the value and so far this one hasn't got any freebies that are inherent to the pledge level itself (some are in the boxed game anyway, some are attached to specific expansions, some are time-limited).
I've still enjoyed the campaign personally and have figured it all out with ease, just concerned that all of the above complexity might have put some people off or disguised the excellent value on offer.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/08 17:12:00
2013/11/08 17:35:17
Subject: Re:Mantic Mars Attacks Kickstarter - <55 hrs left! Mountain of free stuff added, see latest update.
Well just 55 hours to go before Mars Att-acks fun… and we always save a few surprises for the end!
Firstly, we've upgraded our 2D Card Counters to 3D Card Counters! As pointed out to us by Chaoskickstarter and a couple of others, 2D counters for the Civilians, Burning Cattle etc in a game that uses True Line of Sight doesn’t quite work, so we’re going to make the card counters stand up and offer cover for better game play! Thanks for the push guys.
Next, we recognise that Kickstarters are a big ask - we ask you to help with the considerable costs of tooling new products – and while we try to offer a great deal in exchange I realise this is still a good spend from your hobby budget. Thank you for backing us and supporting us getting this fantastic product made. From the basic game pledge, right up to the uber-deluxe completionist Blood on the Battlefield you are going to get an exciting 'seat of your pants' gaming experience with the finest assembled and ready to game minis you will find.
As we head into the last days we want to finish on a big high. It has been an amazing ride so far. It is clear that with the holidays around the corner the last few days have been tough, but heck we are still at 900% of the goal, and in that time we have funded the game, lots of wacky martians and tough US soldiers, there have been heroes and new characters, tons of new scenarios, flying saucers, Robots and so nearly giant bugs! - soon, soon
However, we are slightly behind the high point that we hit earlier this week, and we do feel that treading the same ground can be dull!
So here is what we think is fair – any stretch goal that has already been hit is locked in. We will sculpt, tool it, make it and supply it. It hurts a bit, but nothing as much as seeing the campaign not have an amazing finish!
For clarity that means:
$465,000 – Patriot M7 Military Flatbed Upgrade (Although it looks like we just hit this one!)
$470,000 – Edwyn, Knight of Hoo
$475,000 – Co-operative Play, Solo Play and A.I. Deck
$485,000 – Intact Scenery Tiles
are all now available and do not need to be hit again!
So what do we have to aim for?
Well the high point was $485,000 – so that is the new $500,000!
At $485,000 we will fund the Giant Mutated Bug and Handler, and the Supreme Regent and Martian Army Standard Bearer.
This means we will:
- Add a FREE Supreme Regent to all pledges of $100 and up (including Early Bird The Will of Man).
- Add 1 FREE Giant Mutated Bug to all pledges of $150 or more (including Early Bird The Invaders Arrive).
- Add a FREE Martian Army Standard Bearer to a pledge of $300 and up.
- Add a total of 3 FREE Giant Mutated Bugs to the 1-click $300 Pledge.
- Add 2 FREE Giant Mutated Bugs to the $100 Apocalypse Bundle (included above), which can also be added to other pledges using your credit. So to be clear, if you're at Alien Abduction or Bloodshed on the Battlefield and include Apocalypse in your credit, you'll get a total of 3 bugs, just like the 1-click package!
Let's look at what we need to do over the next 3 days. In maths terms:
- if we can just add $10 per pledge we will be back at $490,000! (I know many of you have pledged all you can, so I am not asking for $10 more, I am just showing how close you are - and what we can do with one final push!)
Combine that with getting back to the 2500 backers we have had already - we will be over the $500,000 mark – and that is just 50 away - so everything is hit-able.
To make sure we have some sweet goals for the weekend and cool things to spend $10 on , we have a few extra toys and goodies…
- We have now produced a Robot Conversion with a Shrink Ray! We’ve also got 5 shrunk US Marines - and we have now included a complete Robot with Shrink Ray AND five shrunk US Marines as a Special Gift to all pledges of Alien Abduction and Bloodshed on the Battlefield – totally free of charge. This will be included in the 1-click package, and included in the Build Your Own without using any of your credit. We’ll also make the new weapon and the marines for just $10 as a Core Add-on!
- We have created a Limited Edition Mars Attacks Hardback Rules Compilation – only available to Kickstarter Backers with a few available to round out the print quantity. This will be available as a $30 Core Add-on – but it will be included free with all pledges of $200 or more!
- We know a few people may have left their pledges over the last few days, but did have one earlier – and we want them back! On Monday morning this week we were on 2500 backers and have reserved that number of Tiger Corps. So, for the benefit of the total (which benefits us all) the 5 Tiger Corps heroes will added again to any pledges we recieve before we hit 2500.
That means all those that have it already keep it – but so will the next 50 backers if they are at Will of Man or higher! If you are on the fence get back in now and get another 5 fantastic Tiger Corp sculpts totally free of charge!
And finally…
Right then folks, we hope you like all of the great new stuff - let's get to it and get those Giant Bugs. Thanks for your support.
Best wishes
Ronnie
2013/11/08 17:41:54
Subject: Mantic Mars Attacks Kickstarter - <55 hrs left! Mountain of free stuff added, see latest update.
Dropped my $140. The value of that pledge level didn't appreciate much with the big update, and since I'm not really into the Mars Attacks IP, it just makes more sense to save money for Deadzone survey 2 (very excited about Deadzone right now) than to invest in a new game with some Deadzone tie-ins.
If I were into Mars Attacks, though, I'd definitely be upping my pledge to $300. Well played, Mantic, well played.
I'm staying in for $1 to get the survey, in case the Blaine figure turns out well.
On the positive side, this decision will preserve my marriage.
Dakkadakka: Bringing wargamers together, one smile at a time.™
2013/11/08 17:58:17
Subject: Mantic Mars Attacks Kickstarter - <55 hrs left! Free Stompy Robot and HB rulebook added.
The thing with Mars Attacks is that I'm going to keep it as a board game, unpainted.
So, for me it occupies a more casual sort of game slot that deadzone can't letting me play it with people who wouldn't play deadzone but wouldn't mind a board game of something that looks ridiculous and fun.
It's a bit closer to zombicide in terms of overall tone and game type. I am mainly just looking to sort out the base game with all the frills and KS exclusives.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/08 18:01:50
2013/11/08 18:04:17
Subject: Mantic Mars Attacks Kickstarter - <55 hrs left! Free Stompy Robot and HB rulebook added.
scarletsquig wrote: So, for me it occupies a more casual sort of game slot that deadzone can't letting me play it with people who wouldn't play deadzone but wouldn't mind a board game of something that looks ridiculous and fun.
Sounds good, SS, and I'm glad the campaign is turning around for Mantic now. I'm basically bailing on this project to spend the same money on other Mantic product, so I'm still in their corner.
Dakkadakka: Bringing wargamers together, one smile at a time.™
2013/11/08 18:07:14
Subject: Mantic Mars Attacks Kickstarter - <55 hrs left! Free Stompy Robot and HB rulebook added.
scarletsquig wrote: Something I just noticed (compare with the pic in the OP):
Spoiler:
Mantic have photoshopped the GW sign out of the picture.
I hadn't noticed that. Interesting that folks didn't jump on Mantic for joking on the competition, but jumped all over Prodos for their joking on Mantic.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
