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Well its sideways topic, but AVP will be getting zero of my dollars. I liked the original alien/s and first couple of predator movies, but I'm not sure I can get behind such a project, and it looks crazy expensive. I think if we can just slog our way back up to bugs I'll be getting everything I could want out of this MA kickstarter

Bugs looking hard to get at this point, and that is a bad thing.

A couple of the big bundles really only shine when you add in the stuff up to and including the bugs. Heck, even the intact terrain not getting made sucks, Mantic has said they will replace intact with ruins if intact does not fund, but I kind of wanted intact...

I can see dropping from my BotB pledge to one of the $150 type pledges if stuff I want isn't going to get made. I was having trouble finding $325 worth of stuff I wanted anyway.

We'll see. I hope they get it back up there.

After seeing the AvP game which I was keen on, I'm now *more* keen on Mars Attacks, given the much greater value Mantic offers. $13 for a single, slightly larget than human mini is not for me.

 CptJake wrote:
I don't think the DZ sprues will get into this one. They still have Mars Attacks stuff to put into it.

Yeah, I'm pretty resigned to that being the case now. I suggested it in the comments the other day and Mantic replied with "good idea" which briefly gave me hope. Ah well, I'll probably just drop tomorrow instead. The brickwork looks nice enough, but it's not enough to tip me over to keeping my pledge in right now (while a mix would have done it). Lots of other stuff higher up the $pending priority food chain than brick walls.


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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
Call me crazy - but it seems like this was another day that was a net zero pledge wise.

I find it a bit baffling. The MA stuff seems like some of the best, most consistent stuff Mantic has done. And they seem to have a lot of it produced already and have nicely painted samples and whatnot. It certainly alleviates (at least for me) a lot of the fear of buying stuff sight unseen.

I can't figure out why they're treading water here and not starting to get the big boosts that most Kickstarters get in their last few days.

Another thing that will be hurting pledge totals is the fact that Mantic use a pledge manager, and by now everybody involved knows they can add on pretty much anything they want after the campaign, so anything they are unsure of, or if moneys tight there is no incentive to stretch themselves to afford anything.. get it later and rely on others to push the total up

It's been said before, but MA is also quite niche, and the $300 level that they encouraged everyone to get on and "you can always drop out at the end" no doubt took up many of the usual late surge crowd, and a lot of those have been backing out, along with people who grabbed a $300 level on top of their existing levels deciding which one of the two they wish to keep.

Creators can absolutely manipulate KS backing levels to a degree, but things don't always go to plan.


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 CptJake wrote:

A couple of the big bundles really only shine when you add in the stuff up to and including the bugs. Heck, even the intact terrain not getting made sucks, Mantic has said they will replace intact with ruins if intact does not fund, but I kind of wanted intact...

...which in turn drops my chance of staying in, even with a smaller pledge from small to non-existent.

 Yonan wrote:
After seeing the AvP game which I was keen on, I'm now *more* keen on Mars Attacks, given the much greater value Mantic offers. $13 for a single, slightly larget than human mini is not for me.

I agree. I feel like I am getting a deal from Mantic for helping to fund Mars Attacks. The AVP kickstarter just feels like a preorder, because of that I will wait for it to hit retail.

Exactly. and why would you get AvP when Deadzone just went up for pre-release? £10 cheaper and you get an awesome game with awesome scenery and awesome models.

or $150 which gets you all this...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/288/839/58c02746eedde00b303fdc9ca9f8daaf_large.jpg?1383754010

Well, for a lot of us, AVP (or just the A, or just the P) is a lot more of a compelling IP than either MA or Warpath/Deadzone. Clearly, both the MA and DZ deals get you a lot more product, and value for money in that sense, which is great if you're a fan of MA, or DZ or both, but there's a degree of this (Very NSFW link) involved in that argument if you strongly prefer the AVP IP to MA or DZ.

Yeah, and it bears mentioning, that robot is reasonably close to the size of a Tau Riptide, just incase people were thinking it was dinky. 170mm of angry stompy doooom!

I was worried AvP would come steamroll everything else running at the moment.

Happy to say I don't think I'll be pulling any of my pledge money from MA.

Reading through the Deadzone rules has really got me excited about killing Martians!

My kids' are already planning on running Martian vs Plague matches.

No, AVP is not the juggernaught we thought it might be (or really should be).

Despite the unnecessary snark of the "Real Aliens..." AVP pledge level, I bet the Mantic guys are breathing a sigh of relief that the AVP KS isn't shining on the value side.

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, for a lot of us, AVP (or just the A, or just the P) is a lot more of a compelling IP than either MA or Warpath/Deadzone. Clearly, both the MA and DZ deals get you a lot more product, and value for money in that sense, which is great if you're a fan of MA, or DZ or both, but there's a degree of this (Very NSFW link) involved in that argument if you strongly prefer the AVP IP to MA or DZ.

I am a much bigger fan of AVP than MA. The only reason I pledged for MA was because it looks like a fun game and I feel like I got a great deal. I want the AVP game more than MA, but I can wait for a better deal.

Of course. If the AVP game doesn't improve remarkably in the next 3 weeks, I won't be staying in on it either as the current deal is ...unimpressive.

MA is absolutely a great deal, I just have a bit of a dislike for the IP, which is of course a completely personal issue.

Yeah, I like alien/s, or predator. All I know of the combination is framed in the recent (seemingly horrible) movie(s?). Never played any games or the like so nothing tying me to it. And the value alone... sigh.

Nah, MA has some kind of other problem, as I really really doubt AvP is putting much of a hurt on it. I think if we can just push bACK ACK up to 500k we'll have a successful little kickstarter. Not a runaway, but something good nonetheless.

I should point out that despite my dislike of the IP, I'm not hoping that Mantic fails here or anything, and I really hope they recover from the current issues and break $500k. They've done much better in terms of sculpts and have done a very good job on value for money here as well.

Aside from my relentless wishlisting about DZ sprues, something Mantic might consider would be reaching out to CMON/Guillotine Games and getting some Survivor cards worked out for the MA survivors into Zombicide? Even the promise of same (as they wouldn't be ready immediately) might still throw a pile of money Mantic's way...

I might go email them with that now, and/or call them later on when the UK wakes up...

I dabbled with an AVP pledge, then cancelled it, and won't be going back. Mars attacks will be definitely be getting some of my money for Deadzone-compatible items, including Blaine and (if viable) the bugs, with possibly some Martian science division thrown in just because I like them.

I'm currently on a $140 pledge, and plan to camp out on it until the final hours. If at that point new developments don't justify that amount of investment, I'll drop back to Blaine and the bugs. But AVP is just starting, with no real incentives outside of the franchise itself, and Mars Attacks is winding down with a fair amount of pressure on Mantic to turn the tide. The final hours could be very interesting.

OK, posted the following to the KS. Reposting it here in case James sees it...

Me on KS wrote:
Hey guys,
It seems that my repeated requests for the DZ scenery sprues to make it into this KS won't be happening, and that's okay (though it will mean I personally drop out).

However, I still want you guys to do as well as possible, and had a thought:

Since you guys seem to be on friendly terms with CMON, I think it would be worth reaching out to CMON/Guillotine Games and getting some Survivor cards worked out for the MA survivors being used in Zombicide.

Obviously they won't be ready for show before the end of the campaign, but if it were possible to do, then the announcement of it (NOT as a stretch goal! just put them in the core box!) would have a lot of potential for new pledgers who would otherwise pass over MA. You've seen how rabid the Zombicide fans are, and there's an awful lot of them out there with money to spend... you might even convert some of them into MA, DZ and even Warpath fans via the natural progression - HeroQuest style...

best of luck - I really want to see you guys turn it around and smash $500k!

Azazel

Oooh, if they could get some legit cross promotion from CMON and get actual Zombicide cards made up... that would be killer.

And hey, why not? Mantic did CMON a proper by giving a shout out to Wrath of Kings via updates.

Put together some hypothetical zombivor versions of the current heroes... put it all together as some sort of one click option available with the base Mars Attacks game... MONEY.

Nice message, perhaps there will be a bite


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Oh god could you imagine zombie Edwyn? Full plate zombie still dragging around a powered/laser sword? Ruuu'uuuun!

think youre spot on Azazelx!

Hard to believe it, but this one looks to be one of the first 'big' mini wargame/boardgame campaigns to NOT spike at the end!

Could be bad timing (AvP launching today) or it could just be that as this is a somewhat minor property now this one has reached its market?

It will be interesting to see exactly how this one performs over the remaining time....

It's those $300 levels they added in the middle of the campaign...

I'm curious too. I'm hoping it at least reaches back up to $500k as that will have most of what was shown locked back in. There's still a metric ton of MA universe to be unlocked and added in, but 500k will keep it as a good project.

Honestly, it doesn't seem like AvP is getting the best reception. I don't think its going to be the 'killer app' or nail in the coffin for MA. I think the timing of it and the fierce competition with other games (in addition to it being somewhat niche, but IMO awesome, of an IP) are kind of what's doing it.

And there was a lot a lot of frontloading and middle-loading with the BotB stuff. Its entirely possible we were never going to get much higher than we are, we just got there all at once.

Raging heroes didn't spike at the end. Did more than this is doing, but it was flat.

Deadzone big spike at the end was cause by influx of backers, and huge boost in average sales.

Credit doesn't allow for upselling, people are redistributing rather than adding stuff on. AvP will have the same problem, compounded by the fact that they, unlike mantic, didn't blast through enough stretch goals unlocking addings to spend their credit on.

I think mantic have efficiently reach their end point earlier, and i bet they wish it ended 2 weeks ago...

I did my part and added 20 bucks to my pledge, which stretches my budget for the week thin, but I felt like I needed to help!

I wish kickstarter took paypal, because my pledge total would be about triple what it is now. But that is too much to drop at once.

 Black Nexus wrote:
Raging heroes didn't spike at the end. Did more than this is doing, but it was flat.

Deadzone big spike at the end was cause by influx of backers, and huge boost in average sales.

Credit doesn't allow for upselling, people are redistributing rather than adding stuff on. AvP will have the same problem, compounded by the fact that they, unlike mantic, didn't blast through enough stretch goals unlocking addings to spend their credit on.

I think mantic have efficiently reach their end point earlier, and i bet they wish it ended 2 weeks ago...

Regardless of their end point, those time-limited $300 pledges were always going to be a double-edged sword, the way people were encouraged to grab them and then decide later if they wanted to keep them was always bound to have some bounce-back.

Yeah, the timing of the pledge as well as the credit vs no need to up seems to have gotten us to critical mass a lot earlier than expected.

Very curious to see if they add new pledge levels in for their next campaign, or if credit is going to have another go.

Plus it's not as if this hasn't been a successful Kickstarter. Maybe if Topps is happy with the final results we end up seeing a Mars Attacks/ Counterattack type deal to bring more to the table (or take the fight to Mars).

Well, I'm in for a dollar. I will probably get some of the soldiers and other stuff through the pledge manager later, but I really hated the Mars Attacks movie, so that's it. However, having seen the DZ production models, I might go in for giant bugs and giant robots... provided I have the funds in the future.

So my take on the MA kickstarter:
I think a number of own goals and competition from other kickstarters has hampered the growth rate.
The aforementioned early $300 pledge levels combined with a lack of things to spend it on is a big part of this. This lack of things has been caused by the second huge future stretch goal picture Mantic released quite early on in the cycle. It was clear to me with the number of steps before we reached the end of that picture and the dollar spacing between the goals that Mantic expected to hit around a million dollars on this kickstarter based on the initial response yet have failed to get anywhere near that. The various items you can’t spend you pledge credit on has also impacted a lot of people’s pledges, having to increase your pledge for things like the T Shirt, cars, etc. Is a big turn off.
I would be very surprised if Mantic hadn’t prepared a number of stretch goal charts to be chosen from based on initial demand. This sounds sensible business practice however this is where it gets annoying for me when coupled with the amount of work completed by Mantic upfront. I’m sure everybody would rather pledge based on pictures of final product rather than renders, and renders rather than drawings as it gives a much better indicator of the quality you’ll actually get. However by completing renders and in some cases initial 3D prints of models Mantic have already spent most of the development cost upfront to develop the game then held that development to ransom unless we pledge a certain total.
By locking already completed development to future levels you create uncertainty as to if that development will ever be unlocked and the cost of that development to the end customer. Stretch goals are meant to be either cost reduction due to increased economy of scale (Battle Systems Terrain kickstarter is a good example of this) or genuine new development effort (Mierce’s kickstarters are good example of this, they can’t afford to pay the sculptor to develop a mini without funding for that mini, unlike Mantic who have already developed many of the minis and rules for this game) not act as ransom for already paid for work.
The other own goal is that the initial contents of the box and some of the additional items was tied to the overall total, e.g., additional gun, additional minis, command minis. Firstly Mantic had already completed the work to develop these additional items. Secondly the set/items without the additional items was clearly bad value and the set had been priced with all the additional items added on. This leads to the bad feeling that Mantic are further nickel and diming people who pledge to unlock content that was always going to be in the box already.
Mantic have clearly been forced to back pedal over releasing stretch goals for no increase in pledge total because they have already spent the money developing them, see the recent unlock of crashed cars, fancy dice and so on. If the pledge total had kept growing you know that they would have been unlock goals pushing back other content. I fully expect that much more will “appear” once the kickstarter has finished as Mantic have already spent the money developing extra things from 3rd parties and they need to recoup all that development effort.
The length of the kickstarter has also been a problem, it has allowed more competition from other kickstarters in the same category to impact the total pledge level and the long kickstarter run time has given people longer to think about exactly what they are getting for their money.
Finally the DZ problems will have played a part in this, it has impacted trust and Mantic could have handled this better with a cast iron statement that it wouldn’t happen again with the MA kickstarter.
I’m at the point where I’m seriously thinking of cancelling my near $600 pledge as I am pretty fed up with the way this kickstarter has been run and spending the money on something else. I would rather Mantic had put the full box contents up at the start, set the funding level at the correct level to cover the costs for that, and had a better spaced, more rewarding goals.

Ha - posted to the wrong thread before

Staying in @ my $140

Was going to switch to AVP but doesn't seem good value so I'm gonna keep this and pick AVP up at retail.

I had my doubts because AVP to me hit more of my tune.

So yeah....lets hit 500k please....

The aforementioned early $300 pledge levels combined with a lack of things to spend it on is a big part of this.

kinda, this *is* a wargame. you are meant to have multiples of units (who only ever has one squad of tactical marines?), people just don't get that.

However by completing renders and in some cases initial 3D prints of models Mantic have already spent most of the development cost upfront to develop the game then held that development to ransom unless we pledge a certain total.

This completed sculpted and had some prints made, that's very different to spending the 10s of 000s of $$$ to get the tools made so they can produce it. that money pays for the tools, and contributes to recouping the sculpting costs back.

once the kickstarter has finished as Mantic have already spent the money developing extra things from 3rd parties and they need to recoup all that development effort.

they buy them in, they didn't pay any development.

Finally the DZ problems will have played a part in this, it has impacted trust and Mantic could have handled this better with a cast iron statement that it wouldn’t happen again with the MA kickstarter.

dz "issues" was scaremongering by leaks into the community and second hand wrong information. wasn't someone going roudn saying that we wouldn't get any enforcers? what actually happened? give us 5 more free now and the rest later, and then give us the rulebook PDF and then give us production models.

and who can make that promise? if something did go wrong, you'd never trust them again.

I would rather Mantic had put the full box contents up at the start, set the funding level at the correct level to cover the costs for that, and had a better spaced, more rewarding goals.

actually this campaign is no different to deadzone.

with deadzone, you paid $150 at the start for 4 $35 sets and they threw mercenaries and scenery in, and even an extra faction starter.

with mars attacks, you paid $150 at the start for a $75 game, and $125 credit. the stretch goals made the equivalent of mercenaries (which got thrown in), and then new infantry and heroes that went into and filled your credit.

You didn't pay any more in either case, actually, both have constantly been added too, only with Mars Attacks, you get to pick what you add thrown in.

which may give the feeling you've haven't had anything added, because all you did was redistribute your credit, but it's actually the same IMHO, when you look at this graphic, it really shows off everything you've get... and if you don't want the mats for instance, you just build your own.



and actually, at nearly $600. you'd get all of this nearly twice...