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Play groups not allowing legends are mostly an urban myth. If you bring an old model, the overwhelming majority of players have no issue with permitting you to use the corresponding legends datasheet.
If you have a freshly printed model or try to proxy a legends datasheet, things might be different.

For competitive events, legend datasheets are disallowed to reduce the mental load on both competitors and organizers. In addition, some datasheets are quite a mess rules wise, so they cause rules arguments when something is on the line. In such events, proper base sizes are not optional, and you always have the option to just not participate.

If you bring trueborn with primaris base sizes and the units are armed properly, even less will have an issue with allowing them. You are in no more or less threat of getting your army allowed to any given game than someone who has printed or heavily converted an army.

I think the problem is though you're treating Legends as a negative because of the fact that it's not allowed for tournament play. But the amount of people in tournaments is relatively slim versus the amount of people who merrily collect, paint and game casually.

The Ever Online stance of people fully believing that the meta is the only thing that matters is the worst thing to happen to Warhammer. The Beardys won unfortunately.

The absolute worst thing I see is people asking online for help new to the hobby. And they say I want to buy these models are they any good? And the top comments are always "oh no don't buy those the meta is terrible". What a load of bollocks. Buy the models because you like them and they look like fun to build and paint.

People commenting and saying that's it I'm not playing after X amount of time because tactical squads still have rules in the game but I can't use them in a small section of play is entirely on you as the player.

The Beardys may have an upper hand. But at least the Tinboyz are still frowned upon.

*Tinboyz. Someone that doesn’t paint their models. At all.

It would work for all of you.
It's my hope that enough people eventually get so severely burned by having their toys moved into Legends that they'll abandon their stupid anti-Legends stance for general non-tourney play.

GW isn't removing anything. They are moving it to Legends.

If some groups don't want to use/allow Legends for some stupid reason (it's not an urban myth, I have seen it - ultra competitive mega officialist mindset???), well, they miss it.

Blaming GW for something that is entirely people's fault is ridiculous.

I feel you need some sort of dogmatic/iconoclast spectrum for this sort of thing.

I don't mind people playing Legends in a friendly game. This would especially go for units that were in the codexes last edition but didn't make the jump. But if certain datasheets acquired a reputation of bring overpowered and someone "mysteriously" wants to bring lots of them I might feel like I'm being stitched up.

This is I think where Forgeworld got a negative reputation - combined with the higher price creating a sense of "pay to win". If people started scrounging increasing ancient kits of Ebay - or converting up their own - I think you'd get a similar hostility.

But I think this is where a lot of people ending up talking past each other. If you wanted a Tau Commander with 3 cyclic Ion Blasters for instance, should you have scrounged bits sites, or bought multiple commanders, to make one? Or should you just have gone with counts-as, or conversions, or made your own? To avoid all this, should GW just limit the rules to what's in the box? Seemingly that's what they've decided to do.

I mean its bit like rules. I don't like taking a "thy shalt play 10th (until 11th comes out) preferably with the current tournament pack and nothing else". But equally I don't want to play some mishmash of houserules and stuff cobbled together from half a dozen of editions, that has no real relationship to 40k. Casual can become too casual.

Anyway - I don't mind the new grot. To some degree I can see the argument that its not all that exciting and just more of the same. But I kind of... see the 2nd edition grot in the design. So if that's what the designer was going for I think they nailed it.

My problem with Legends isn't even that they're not tournament legal - I don't play tournaments I don't care.

But a lot of Legends are bad, so bad sometimes they don't even function properly. There's absolutely a level of bad where "looks cool" is not enough to overcome the "does absolutely nothing and dies, very uncool" effect.
Especially if a unit gets relegated to Legends then their codex comes out and changes some aspect of how the army functions. Often the Legends aren't properly updated and they're stuck with mechanics that simply do not function anymore.

A lot of 40k players also really clutch pearls over LoS as well, and these people won't be happy with you running an ex-Devastator marine as a Gravis Thingiemie due to the size difference.

Also in my experience most 40k players are very tournament focused. If you just grab a game off whoever's nearby 90% of the time they're bringing their tournament list to practice, which then means the tournament culture/mindset pollutes every game.

You can of course avoid those people and focus your playgroup on the 10% of people who also don't give a monkey's about tournaments, but then that's really limiting your options.

I like the new grot, but I hope his fellow grots have larger ears. Looking forward to these guys.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's well known that works for ccs works for everyone. No chance any playgroup might not want to use Legends or have stricter rules about proxying.

I was gonna say. Very cool to hear ccs has a group that is so chill they don't even care about base sizes (!?!?). Unfortunately part of the reason why I've largely dropped out of 40k is the intense obsession with competitive play that has suffused the casual player base. Legends, in my experience, is treated wholly with suspicion, at best confusion. Even players who will never attend a tournament in their lives obsess over them on social media.

The contrast with 30k players is pretty stark.

I think bringing the Legends in the app would do a lot to legitimise them. That's how a lot of people approach army building these days, and they might not even know that the Legends exist.

 Jidmah wrote:
Play groups not allowing legends are mostly an urban myth. If you bring an old model, the overwhelming majority of players have no issue with permitting you to use the corresponding legends datasheet....

Am I the only one here who remembers 9th's campaign books lorewise being about playing a Golden Demon eligible 2000pt army at Warhammer Worlds.. because I think I recall them strongly nudging crusade and Combat Patrol(their newest and promoted features in 9th) players towards that, no thanks to Frontline Gaming...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:

Spoiler:

I think the problem is though you're treating Legends as a negative because of the fact that it's not allowed for tournament play. But the amount of people in tournaments is relatively slim versus the amount of people who merrily collect, paint and game casually.

The Ever Online stance of people fully believing that the meta is the only thing that matters is the worst thing to happen to Warhammer. The Beardys won unfortunately.

The absolute worst thing I see is people asking online for help new to the hobby. And they say I want to buy these models are they any good? And the top comments are always "oh no don't buy those the meta is terrible". What a load of bollocks. Buy the models because you like them and they look like fun to build and paint.

People commenting and saying that's it I'm not playing after X amount of time because tactical squads still have rules in the game but I can't use them in a small section of play is entirely on you as the player.

You permanently lost me at buy whatever you want, because there are players like me who got in trouble for following rule of cool instead of asking which is best for a beginner(in my case, forcing me to stop playing the game altogether).

I know Goonhammer just changed their name but the fact they'll still force people to either meta or rule of cool, among other sites and Youtube channels, is not helping.

kirotheavenger wrote:A lot of 40k players also really clutch pearls over LoS as well, and these people won't be happy with you running an ex-Devastator marine as a Gravis Thingiemie due to the size difference.

Can I use my old Hive Tyrant model?
'Of course, just put him on the current base size and use some tactical rocks to bring it up to the right height!'
...What if I don't want to tear apart a model that's been done for years just to meet whatever's currently standard?
'Well then that's modeling for advantage and you can't use it.'
Cool.

And yeah, my issue with Legends isn't tournaments, it's more that the rules for so many Legends units are either halfassed or just get dropped. I'm okay with my Avenger Strike Fighter being overpriced because they don't want to encourage Legends units, but it doesn't get rules for any of the hardpoints on its wings, and my Lightning doesn't get rules at all.

Edit: And to add insult to injury, when I try to download the Legends Field Manual to check points costs, it 403s.

I don't understand why they don't release a firstborn codex. Call it Space marine legends or something. Otherwise in the odd position of space marines being he only army you couldn't use to play games with int he last 10,000 years of the games setting.

Commercially, the moulds exist, if you don't want the SKUs do them as a web only army and produce them in bursts every so often. Legends printing or something.

Would be the only codex where you know things weren't going to be added! (Would still scrap centurions however.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But a lot of Legends are bad, so bad sometimes they don't even function properly. There's absolutely a level of bad where "looks cool" is not enough to overcome the "does absolutely nothing and dies, very uncool" effect.
Especially if a unit gets relegated to Legends then their codex comes out and changes some aspect of how the army functions. Often the Legends aren't properly updated and they're stuck with mechanics that simply do not function anymore.

Yes, would be easy to get a bunch of enthusiastic fans to do a rules update for them periodically to keep them relevant. Not beyond a multi million pound company.

A lot of 40k players also really clutch pearls over LoS as well, and these people won't be happy with you running an ex-Devastator marine as a Gravis Thingiemie due to the size difference.

Yep, this and bases. Have encountered both attitudes as it means my guys are hard to see, hard to make up what they are, etc. etc.

Also in my experience most 40k players are very tournament focused. If you just grab a game off whoever's nearby 90% of the time they're bringing their tournament list to practice, which then means the tournament culture/mindset pollutes every game. You can of course avoid those people and focus your playgroup on the 10% of people who also don't give a monkey's about tournaments, but then that's really limiting your options.

Yep, most games I have played were with people practicing for their next tourney.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I liked the goonhammer take on the yarrick story.

"It took me a minute to realize what this story was telling because of the way it was being told. But once you strip away the overly grimdark technogothic exterior of 40K from the tale, you can see it: Yarrick is trying to place a pre-order for the 11th Edition Starter Box and the Orks are trying to stop him. And once he places the preorder, it takes weeks for him to arrive to add the new Space Marines to his army."

Day 2. Is the Grot holding:
A. an autogun(with profile)?
B. another Grot blaster(generic rules)?

That's a rich grot, bein able to afford a hair quig

 parakuribo wrote:
Day 2. Is the Grot holding:
A. an autogun(with profile)?
B. another Grot blaster(generic rules)?

Wait And See™.

 Ashiraya wrote:

The contrast with 30k players is pretty stark.

One stark difference between 40k Legends and 30k Legacies is that the 30k Legacies get *more* balance updates than the core unit offerings. In 30k 2nd the Legacies got small updates for balance twice whereas the core offerings were only tweaked once and only then to fix did-not-work-mechanically-as-written issues.

There is absolutely a difference in the player perspective, but 30k Legacies are treated with much more care and legitimacy as 40k Legends are.
Although it's obvious 30k Legacies are treated with a 20% Legacies points tax

 catbarf wrote:
Edit: And to add insult to injury, when I try to download the Legends Field Manual to check points costs, it 403s.

It got merged into the regular MFM, so all points are in a single document.

 Olthannon wrote:
I think the problem is though you're treating Legends as a negative because of the fact that it's not allowed for tournament play. But the amount of people in tournaments is relatively slim versus the amount of people who merrily collect, paint and game casually.

The Ever Online stance of people fully believing that the meta is the only thing that matters is the worst thing to happen to Warhammer. The Beardys won unfortunately.

The absolute worst thing I see is people asking online for help new to the hobby. And they say I want to buy these models are they any good? And the top comments are always "oh no don't buy those the meta is terrible". What a load of bollocks. Buy the models because you like them and they look like fun to build and paint.

People commenting and saying that's it I'm not playing after X amount of time because tactical squads still have rules in the game but I can't use them in a small section of play is entirely on you as the player.

100% true. Way too many people when discussing online assume Legends is forbidden everywhere forever, not just in events. Same thing in 8th before the "Rule of Three" was official it was a SUGGESTION for events, and people still acted like "Oh you can't field four of those!" in online discussion without even bothering to find out if it was for an event. Even today, as you said, you get the "This is what I have how can I make it work" and some numpty will pop in saying oh get rid of 90% of that and buy these meta units instead.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

The contrast with 30k players is pretty stark.

One stark difference between 40k Legends and 30k Legacies is that the 30k Legacies get *more* balance updates than the core unit offerings. In 30k 2nd the Legacies got small updates for balance twice whereas the core offerings were only tweaked once and only then to fix did-not-work-mechanically-as-written issues.

There is absolutely a difference in the player perspective, but 30k Legacies are treated with much more care and legitimacy as 40k Legends are.
Although it's obvious 30k Legacies are treated with a 20% Legacies points tax

Legacies only really get "updates" to nerf stuff that's OP (typically by nerfing it into the ground, like Fulmentarus in 2.0), but a lot of very strong stuff goes untouched (2.0 Dominators and Huscarls) and if a Legacies unit sucks it's pretty much got no hope, even if it really really sucks.

Essentially, they are treated the same way 40k does aircraft. They're allowed to suck, but the moment somehow someone manages to get one to work (Skari with his Voidravens) they get repeatedly nerfed to ensure it won't happen again.

With that said, the legacies consuls amusingly got an arguably better treatment than the main book ones, since they largely escaped the boxlocking. Khorne bless.

But anyway, it really is just a community difference. The 40k playerbase could use legends if they wanted to. ccs is correct in that much. Nothing is stopping them from just doing it. But in great part they don't.

It will almost certainly be a Grot Blasta with generic rules.

@Catbarf

I still have the very first digital downloads fro 10th I think- when I go home, I'll double check and see if I can find a 10th ed Lightning card and a points cost for you. If so, I'll send it your way.

No promises... I did have an external drive die on me last year, and if it was the one that had those downloads on it, they may be gone. But I will try.

At least AoS Legends is a little bet

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/sz3xng0t/recruit-gelgus-pust-and-his-court-of-minions-to-do-battle-in-the-mortal-realms/

Many models from Warhammer Quest: Darkwater that don’t get specific rules in the new Battletome can still find their way into a Maggotkin of Nurgle army. For example, Mulgoth the Cleaver is a perfect Lord of Blights, while the Blight Templars make great Putrid Blightkings.

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/maggotkin-of-nurgle-putrid-blightkings-2026?queryID=051f405467067afdc1b6f787c409db2b


.... nevermind....

 parakuribo wrote:
Day 2. Is the Grot holding:
A. an autogun(with profile)?
B. another Grot blaster(generic rules)?

Looks like autogun to me.

More disappointed that both shown have smaller Kruleboy-like ears.

I am not a fan. I want big floppy triangle gremlin ears on all small Grot/Goblin types.

With 11th announced and this thread already longer than some novels I'm going to shut it down.

See you all in the 11th edition unboxing thread!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/818827.page