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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok old pals, it was said in the rumors I believe how the Scourges changing most of their fire on the move weapons to heavy when they can't avoid move and shoot penalty to heavy somehow makes them do more damage.

I need some veteran advice as to why that is true as to me that feels like a net gain of bad. What am I missing ?

I ask because I love the models so in my DE list I use them but this feels an awful lot like it is counter intuitive to their design of highly mobile to place most all their weapons as heavy.

Old Scourges vs standard T7 3+ Vehicles:

Haywire: 4.44 unsaved wounds
Blaster: 6.21 unsaved wounds
Dark Lance (moving): 4.662 unsaved wounds
Heat Lance (lol): 3.08 unsaved wounds.

New Scourges vs standard T7 3+ vehicles

Haywire: 6.00 unsaved wounds
Blaster: 6.21 unsaved wounds
Dark Lance (moving): 6.66 unsaved wounds
Heat Lance (moving): 7.326 unsaved wounds

I'm not sure what's to explain. All the guns that went Heavy got way way WAY stronger to more than compensate. the average roll of D6 is a 3.5 (because you can't roll a 0 it's slightly more than 3) and the average roll of D6+2 is 5.5, almost double. So if you almost double the damage, and then apply a -1 to hit, which is a 17% penalty...you still do more damage.

The Haywire Blaster also got way stronger as well. The old mortal wound thing is unchanged, but it now wounds vehicles automatically on a 4+, and the core statline went from AP-1 and damage 1 to AP-3 and damage D3, so you're going to be wounding more with the basic statline of the gun than the mortal wounds.

The nice thing is, no matter what your scourges are armed with, you don't really have a reason to feel bad about any of it. Sure, blasters are very slightly less efficient, you'd rather have a heat lance, but it's nowhere NEAR as big a feels-bad as if you'd glued one with a heat lance before. Haywire does less, but it does its damage partially in mortal wounds, so you juke Invulnerable saves. The Dark Lance does a bit less, but it's got longer range so you can set up in a safer position.

If you've got a ton of blaster scourges (As I do, I've got a whole squad) maybe consider running them as the nearly identical looking shredder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scactha wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

I think this is the thing I like the most about the whole freakshow setup now. The freakshow benefits are almost extras. I'm gonna spend what... thirty five points on PGLs and grisly trophies army wide that I might have skipped had I not built into freakshow? And both my main subfactions - poisoned tongue and dark creed - are both getting major benefits now BESIDES their involvement in the freakshow setup. +1 to hit on my Talos and my hex/ossefactor squads, and poisoned tongue you're mostly going into for the splinter boys. Honestly, I spent a while working over options, and I'll probably just skip the Trophy Takers trait on my wyches - it's just unnecessary buy in, I'll just run them as Cursed Blade like I was originally going to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, another variation on the freakshow setup I'm looking into:

Realspace Raid brigade detachment. Poisoned Tongue, Cult of the Cursed Blade, Coven of the Dark Creed

Archon (Hatred Eternal, Djinn Blade)
Succubus (Shardnet+Impaler, Precision Blows)
Haemonculus (Fear Incarnate)
Drazar

5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
10x Kabalites, Blaster, PGL, Splinter Rifle
10x Kabalites, Blaster, PGL, Splinter Rifle
10x Wyches, Razorflails, Shardnet+Impaler, Hydra Gauntlets

5x Incubi
5x Mandrakes
5x Mandrakes

Talos, Heat Lances, Cleavers
Talos, Heat Lances, Cleavers
Cronos, Vortex

5x Hellions, PGL
5x Hellions, PGL
5x Hellions

Raider, Dark Lance, Splinter Racks, PGL
Raider, Dark Lance, Splinter Racks, PGL
Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Venom, Grisly Trophies

Scotsman, one minor nitpick-going from hitting on a 3+ to a 4+ is a 25% penalty, not 17%. Since before, you were hitting on four sides of the die, now you're hitting on three sides of the die.

Otherwise, excellent post!

Tyel wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.

I'm always kind of shocked at how turned off players get by a simple 4+ to hit. For multiple editions now folks are taking haywire blaster which always wound their preferred target on a 4+ with a small amount of damage. Just look at it as the reversing of dice rolls. A heatlance is now S8 -4 D6+2 damage and a dark lance S8 -4 D3+3 damage, so your wounding most of it's preferred targets on 2's or 3's so yea it is literally just reversing the order of rolling in their case. Yet the damage is WAY higher now with min 3 max 8 and min 4 max 6. Sure you can take a blaster and hit and wound on 3's but your damage is 1-6. It's way better now because there is an actual debate or reason to take any of the choices instead of one obvious one. Also consider the fact that things like cloud of flies, miasma, lightning fast reactions, mirage launchers, smoke screen, hard to hit or dense cover all only ever amount to -1 lol. It's really not bad at all to begin with, just something psychological about the first roll in the attack sequence, it gets more attention because its the first hurdle.

Scactha wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

That is interesting, and with very limited playing in 9th my brain always looks at attrition (killing) at first and it's when I am playing more frequently that the objective problem solving part of my mind lights up.

That does look like a very promising however I am not entirely sold yet. Seems like a grind to gain many points from marines if I am honest, and the deathwing variety are flat immune to morale are they not?

I'll definitely give it a whirl myself whenever I can get a game in. I think I am more excited for liquifiers not being garbage again, I've waited since 5th for them to turn around, so I am still a bit drawn to dark tech. Dark creed is definitely looking much stronger though.

Triptch Whip: +3A, Poison 2+ AP-3 D2
Dancer's Edge: (Master succubus) S+2, AP-4, D2, invulns cant be taken against wounds of 6
Blood Glaive: (Red Grief), S+2 AP-3 D3
Relic Glaive: (Strife) S+2, AP-5, D2, +1 to wound vs ld8+, 1MW if you don't target models with LD8+
Relic Agonizer: (Strife) Select one model who can't fall back
Garland of Spite (Strife): Select one enemy model and halve its attacks as well as autohit it
Dark Lotus Toxin: (Strife), +1S and +1D to all weapons on model
Phial Bouquet: (Strife) 1d6 random drug each round
Traitors Embrace: (Cursed Blade), if killed in melee 2+ to deal 3+d3mw

Breaking down the succubus relics, the generic of the Triptch Whip offers a high baseline. A Triptch Whip succubus is more effective against any target she has any business fighting by a wide margin: Assuming +A drugs 6.94 GEQ 5.78 MEQ 2.31 TEQ (all expressed as Killed Models) 6.94 CEQ (Marine Captain Equivalent 4++ multiwound character, expressed as Unsaved Wounds)

The Dancer's Edge offers one capability that almost no other relic setup offers: A succubus that can threaten vehicles. A Cult of the Cursed Blade succubus with Strength drugs and Dancers Edge/Blast Pistol deals 6.94 unsaved wounds vs a t7 3+ target. 4.86 GEQ 4.02 MEQ 1.802 TEQ 5.41 CEQ. Theoretically the strife glaive can perform a similar function but it's dependent on the +1 to wound getting it to 4+ vs vehicle targets. Some vehicles (Space Marine, Necron, Knights, etc) are LD8+ but others (Eldar, Guard, Ork) are not.

Grave Lotus on a Glaive/Blast Pistol succubus with strength drugs get close (6.66 wounds vs t7 3+) if you're in Strife and you don't want to be dependent on your opponent having ld8 vehicle targets. Note that (just going off of the secondhand leaks) grave lotus affects the strength and damage of the blast pistol as well, which is why that one is able to come close. If grave lotus is only on melee weaponry its always better to go for the Strife Relic Glaive.

A note on warlord traits: Precision Blows>Quicksilver Fighter. The mortal wounds not only provide better results with most weaponry.
Triptch Whip Quicksilver Fighter: 8.32 GEQ 6.94 MEQ 2.77 TEQ 8.33 CEQ
Triptch Whip Precision Blows: 8.95 GEQ 6.32 MEQ 2.98 TEQ 8.95 CEQ

Blood Glaive with Precision is particularly solid because it is D3 and you get a blast pistol: 7.37 GEQ 5.06 MEQ 3.95 TEQ 8.58 CEQ. D3 makes it a particular sweet spot for murdering elite infantry expressed as TEQ (3W 5++ infantry)

If you decide to go for one of the defensive/utility based relics, of which the only ones that are really worthwhile are the Garland (A powerful pick against targets like super pumped up named characters, knights, etc) and the Traitors Embrace, your best pick appears to be a Shardnet+Impaler with +strength drugs. Without accounting for any warlord trait (Precision is still best for damage) you're looking at: 3.833 GEQ 2.91 MEQ 0.73 TEQ 2.91 CEQ

Just For Fun: WHAT KIND OF DRUGS WERE THEY DENNY?
The most optimal druggubus is roll 2 times randomly on the table, take the stimm addict trait, use the Stimulant Innovators custom cult, and hand her that Dancer's Edge so she's got a weapon that's actually using her core strength stat. You do re-roll results of 6 thankfully on stimm addict so you're slightly less likely to end up with one of the two results you don't want (+1BS +1LD) so you are very likely to be able to pop Hyperstimm Backlash and have a succubus with +2S +2A +2T +4" move. with 5 mostly random drug effects you're likely to have at least one of the +WS/+BS womp womps but who cares.

Archon
Parasite's kiss: 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-2 D2, regain +1 wound for each model destroyed
Djinn Blade: S+1 AP-3 D3, +2A, roll a d6 each time you fight on a 1 suffer a mortal.
Soul Seeker: 18" pistol 2 poison 2+ AP-2 Dd3, ignore look out sir, no cover.
Animus Vitae: Essentially 2+ to grant +1 to hit on turn 2 instead of turn 3 for your turn 2 tempo list
Helm of Spite: Bearer can DTW, if they succeed the psyker takes a perils
Obsidian Veil: 4++
Armor of Misery: 3+sv, -1 to hit
Writ of living muse (black heart): rr 1s to wound kabal CORE, blades for hire if in RSR.
Soulhelm (Master archon): -1 to hit, 5+ FNP

The Archon is basically a similar game to the succubus with a more nebulous aim: Can you get better usage out of your relic/trait combo than you can get by running djinn blade/blast pistol with eternal hatred?

Because here's the thing: The Djinn Blade/Blast Pistol Eternal Hatred archon is a MONSTER.
5.22 GEQ, 5.22 MEQ, 3.47 TEQ, 7.122 CEQ
11.5 unsaved wounds vs T7 3+

So right off the bat: both pistol weapons reduce his damage swapping the Blade for a Huskblade. If you're running a pure shooty list, Parasites Kiss might be worthwhile to bring in a Venom lets say if the archon is rolling with a Shredder squad of Poisoned Tongue kabalites, you're not bringing any Incubi you're not bringing a Court so you just want your archon to be shooty, that's fine.

Animus Vitae is an interesting option IMO if youre running a list with a lot of turn 2 tempo melee units (Grotesques, Wyches in transports, Incubi/drazar in transport, hellions etc. You huck it out turn 2, and you get the turn 3 eager to flay for your big damage punch turn 2. Across your whole army, it's easy for +1WS to outclass the admittedly good damage the archon can be putting out. Helm of spite is similarly fine in a psyker heavy meta, we're familiar with what that brings to the table at this point.

All defensive relics IMO are a waste of time. The archon is not going to survive a round of attacks with a 3+ and -1 to hit or a 4++ post-shadowfield or a -1 5+FNP he wouldn't have survived before, he's a squishy T3 W5 character. 40k is a game of rocket tag, the 2++ is a better means to not die unexpectedly than most characters pack and gives the archon an unexpected edge in many matchups he has no business winning as a 90pt model, I'd say stick with that and give him the absurd offense that Hatred+Djinn Blade brings.

And then lastly there's the Writ, which I think makes for the only real viable 'support archon' setup where you just take a cheapo weapon, the writ, labyrinthine cunning and you make sure he's standing on the battlefield at the start of the game, ideally in a RSR detachment in range of some Talos for him to buff the shooting of and maybe with some extra scourges to drop down turn 2 and get reroll 1s to hit and wound from him.

Haemonculus:
Spirit Sting (Dark Creed): 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-3 d1, no invuln saves
Vexator Mask (Prophets of FLesh): No overwatch, select one enemy unit when fighting to fight last.
Nightmare Doll: Haemonculus gets 4+fnp instead of 5+
Flensing Blade (Co12): S: user poison 2+, AP-2 Dd3, D3 vs characters
Poisoners Ampoule (master haemie): Once per battle enemy unit within 9" takes d3 mortals on 2+, cant give auras, cant receive auras.


Haemie definitely has the most oddball list and I'd rate him as the one of the three I'd be most likely to leave relic-less. He doesn't get to be a "plus one" with Alliance of Agony when it comes to relics, so unless you've got a real good plan for them, I think probably leave that at home and give the relics to the two characters who can use them to become crazy damage factories.

Nightmare Doll is totally useless (RIP my puppetmaster Haemonculus scratchbuild who I usually ran as having it) Spirit Sting is cute but meh, Poisoners Ampoule seems pretty good in concept but realistically it'll be turn 3 probably before it gets used.

Vex Mask used to be good when Overwatch was a real thing in 8th, in 9th I think it's not a game changer, if your running PoF you've got extremely good odds that your sole HQ is going to be Urien so its kind of unlikely to see play anyway.

The only one I think 'wow, that meaningfully changes the game for the haemonculus" is the flensing blade, which makes him a fairly talented character disembowler. I'd usually go for this one because (in my experience anyway) my haemonculus is the one character who almost always gets multiple rounds of combat unmurderized because he's rolling with a big gang of lumpy lads my opponent tends to be far more concerned with. As characters go the haemie is built like a brick gak so when people do target him, they often end up disappointed.

For a hilarious MW fishing machine, look no further than the Precision Blows + DLT + Razorflails Cult of Strife Succubus.

The fact that you can run it alongside a TWip toting Succubus is just gravy.

Sterling191 wrote:
For a hilarious MW fishing machine, look no further than the Precision Blows + DLT + Razorflails Cult of Strife Succubus.

The fact that you can run it alongside a TWip toting Succubus is just gravy.

The thing is because of how Precision Blows works now, the best MW fisher technically is Grave Lotus Razorflails with +1A drugs. 16A with D2 to try and get your MWs on.

@the_scotsman another excellent rundown.

If we end up starting a new thread, I'd highly suggest that the first however-many posts are dedicated to your guides/reviews.


Incidentally, I was going to correct you that the Soul Seeker also ignores LoS . . . then I checked and discovered it no longer ignores LoS. Because apparently it wasn't weak enough already.

Seriously, what the hell, GW? You had a relic no one took, in a subfaction no one ever played, and you decided that you needed to nerf it anyway (at the same time that similar weapons are getting significant buffs - like the Parasite's Kiss getting a +50% buff to its output).

And yes, I am bitter about this. I was one of the only people who ever used the damn thing in 8th. I loved the idea of a weapon you couldn't hide from but in practise it was just too weak and unreliable. And GW responded by making it even worse. Outstanding.


Anyway, my personal bitterness notwithstanding, I agree with your overall assessment. Only thing I'd add is that, if you don't plan to take a Coven-specific artefact on a Haemonculus, it seems like he'd be an excellent candidate for the Helm of Spite.

As far as the Archon goes, it's hard to justify anything outside of the Djin Blade or Writ. Maybe Parasite's Kiss but that's about it.

To be honest, I think the artefacts are by far the most disappointing aspect of the new book. Especially those of the Archon. And so many of our artefacts just feel extremely lacklustre, with many apparently taking no account of the other changes made to the codex.

I mean, look at the artefacts (and the warlord traits, for that matter) PT, OR and FS get. Would you take any of them over the generic ones or the BH ones?

FS gets a 4++ save, but every Archon will get a 5++ save from turn 4 (turn 3 for BH) by default anyway. Meanwhile, OR gets a 3+ save with -1 to hit in melee. It's weird that this, too, is unchanged when the Archon's base save has improved to 4+.

There's also the problem that if you take a defensive relic, your Archon probably won't be worth protecting in the first place (as all the best melee weapons and support abilities are tied to other artefacts). Plus, if you really, really want to go defensive, I'm pretty sure both of the above are completely outclassed by the Soulhelm.


I think the Succubus and Haemonculus both get off a bit better in this department, especially the former (probably helped by the fact that she can be made very good at her function using only basic equipment, so she doesn't rely on artefacts in the same way the Archon does). But the overall selection still feels more than a little lacking, with each model having just 3-4 generic artefacts to pick from. Quite frankly, it seems we got a big piece of artwork in the artefact section to try and disguise just how bare-bones our selection actually is.

Sorry for going on a bit of a rant there. Just something that's already really standing out to me as I try to consider lists and HQ builds.

I think you can hand him a pistol if hes just a tax archon in a shooty list, give him the writ, or hand him the Orb Of 2+ WS in Turn 2.

The haemie is definitely the best candidate for the hat of angry. Hes the most likely to be running around on the board.

Honestly I think the archon has the most interesting relic selection of the three. The succubus basically just has weapons...I mean...three slightly different glaives? My own personal favorite the traitors embrace just seems dumb because why use that when an optimal weapon relic setup just allows her to dumpster on an opponent anyway.

The archon can at least be built with a safeish ranged weapon, a melee beatstick, an alpha strike buff item, and a safe buff item

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/797116.page#11086061


New topic unless mods says otherwise

 Red Corsair wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.

I'm always kind of shocked at how turned off players get by a simple 4+ to hit. For multiple editions now folks are taking haywire blaster which always wound their preferred target on a 4+ with a small amount of damage. Just look at it as the reversing of dice rolls. A heatlance is now S8 -4 D6+2 damage and a dark lance S8 -4 D3+3 damage, so your wounding most of it's preferred targets on 2's or 3's so yea it is literally just reversing the order of rolling in their case. Yet the damage is WAY higher now with min 3 max 8 and min 4 max 6. Sure you can take a blaster and hit and wound on 3's but your damage is 1-6. It's way better now because there is an actual debate or reason to take any of the choices instead of one obvious one. Also consider the fact that things like cloud of flies, miasma, lightning fast reactions, mirage launchers, smoke screen, hard to hit or dense cover all only ever amount to -1 lol. It's really not bad at all to begin with, just something psychological about the first roll in the attack sequence, it gets more attention because its the first hurdle.

Or, maybe my problem stems from the fact that I have armies that hit on 4+ often and I know exactly how unreliable that can be. I'm not a first year player who doesn't understand the game mechanics. I simply asked a question, which was answered. I still think its counter intuitive to give a highly mobile unit almost all heavy choices but I figured I'd ask the powers that be why it ended up feeling better without digging through all the information personally. It's not a mental hurdle, it was a simple question. I thank scotsman for doing the math and laying it out well for me, it was appreciated.

I'm always kind of shocked how someone has to take a simple question and turn it into the person asking it is somehow mentally challenged. Sorry I asked another human for their feedback. Now, if that wasn't the nature of what felt like a dig, I apologize but treating someone as if they are slow or prone to some kind of mental superstition because 4+ bad!, is really a poor way to speak to someone. Especially if I had been a player who had issues and couldn't help it. The manner in which you treat someone is kind of important when they think they are talking to kindred spirits, even on the net.

AngryAngel80, Can't say for certain but I didn't read what Red Corsair said as being an attack on you at all. He generalized his statement about people being turned off by -1 to hit (which is true, LOTS of people are very turned off by -1 to hit) and he explained the psychology behind it a bit. Just my opinion but I really don't feel this was in any way an attack on you Angel.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
AngryAngel80, Can't say for certain but I didn't read what Red Corsair said as being an attack on you at all. He generalized his statement about people being turned off by -1 to hit (which is true, LOTS of people are very turned off by -1 to hit) and he explained the psychology behind it a bit. Just my opinion but I really don't feel this was in any way an attack on you Angel.

^yup very much this.

Didn't mean to touch a nerve just having a fun conversation as I noticed this sentiment often with the majority of players, sorry if you felt attacked but even reading it back I feel like I didn't say anything controversial and I didn't single anyone out.