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Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?

Ages, I'm sure, like it does with almost every time one plays a new game or editions with fundamental changes.

But I'm not a goldfish, and even if I don't remember the precise numbers from game to game, even turn to turn sometimes, you can bet I'll remember "that's the unit with the nasty charge reaction" or " that's the unit that has a high health pool" pretty quickly.

To criticise any game, in this context, of having a lot of information you need to remember to play the game well is frankly absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?

 Azreal13 wrote:

Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?

Ages, I'm sure, like it does with almost every time one plays a new game or editions with fundamental changes.

But I'm not a goldfish, and even if I don't remember the precise numbers from game to game, even turn to turn sometimes, you can bet I'll remember "that's the unit with the nasty charge reaction" or " that's the unit that has a high health pool" pretty quickly.

To criticise any game, in this context, of having a lot of information you need to remember to play the game well is frankly absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?

I’ve never played 40k or any GW army game for that matter.
My first ‘official’ wargame was Warmachine.
So I have no context to apply to that complexity comparison.
I have a really good memory, far from a goldfish at least, and I had a hard time recalling all the needed information regarding models. Toss in the CID and that made trying to memorizing a lot pretty tough.
I want games to be fun, and I want most of that time to be spent actually playing. I don’t need my war games to be so complex that I need to literally study rules daily to keep up, or even win.

Maybe I’m just getting old, but honestly I don’t have time for that gak.
But regardless of all that, I still like Warmachine. I ran weekly events. Weekly painting days. I PGd and organized everything PP at my LGS for the three years I worked there, and for two more afterwards.
Knowing g the game was practically a full time job.
The current MK4 official event army size is 100 points, and by a rough count, I’m looking at around 30 models, or about a dozen cards or more on the table. That is a lot of info to parse during a game is you don’t know anything about the other persons army. Regardless, I’m still holding out hope for battle boxes to work their way into a regular release.
That said, complexity is not the biggest hurdle WM needs to overcome - it’s the price of entry.

Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.

But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.

MaxT wrote:
Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.

But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.

Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.

The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.

Speaking as a Guild Ball player, where cards ceased to be a thing long before Steamforged stopped supporting it, and unsurprisingly aren't a thing now the community is keeping it going, PDFs are a thing, printers are cheap and so are laminators.

The upsides of removing the costs and latency of including cards far outweigh any downsides.

 rayphoton wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.

But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.

Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.

The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.

The new app will allow one to print off the cards anyways. So there is that.
I like the cards too, and War Room was expensive. I’m glad the new app is going to be free and allow one to print the physical cards if we want. For a tactile wargame, I prefer all my bits to be tactile.
We spend too much time on our phones as it is. I’d rather get away from it than have it out while I’m playing a physical game. That said, Return to Dark Tower is on a whole new level….so I guess it can’t be all bad.

 Ghool wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.

But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.

Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.

The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.

The new app will allow one to print off the cards anyways. So there is that.
I like the cards too, and War Room was expensive. I’m glad the new app is going to be free and allow one to print the physical cards if we want. For a tactile wargame, I prefer all my bits to be tactile.
We spend too much time on our phones as it is. I’d rather get away from it than have it out while I’m playing a physical game. That said, Return to Dark Tower is on a whole new level….so I guess it can’t be all bad.

Having the entire game rules be free is a great way to let people see what it is before commiting any money to it. Which is a good thing.

Making the cards printable from the app is also a very handy thing. I agree with you 100% about gaming to get away from the digital world, and back to a tactile experience. Also cards are handy to just pass to my opponent if they want to read any rules.

I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.

Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.

They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.

Removing cards hasn’t helped costs for players though ? The mark iv models are more expensive than ever.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yea, but that doesn't mean that the conceptual issue is necessarily valid. The conceptual issue people have with theme lists principally boils down to the idea of "these guys both fight for the same nation, so I should be able to field them together", but they only really think that way by virtue of the fact that they used to be able to do so but can not do so any longer.

You see the same dynamic in 40k - "why are my chaos daemons a separate army from my chaos space marines, they should be together like they used to be" - but you don't see people make the same argument about imperial knights, despite the fictional relationship between those forces being basically identical to that of daemons and CSM. Why? Because Chaos Knights were never part of CSM the way daemons were.

You see the same on the Imperium side - people will bitch and moan about Inquisitors and "Imperial Agents" not being fieldable as part of guard/space marine factions the way they used to be - but you don't see people argue about Imperial Knights, Sisters, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, and Custodes all being separate factions. Why? Because they never were in the first place.

To me, it really seems more that the problem is really the perception that something was
"taken away" from players by changing it from what it was before, rather than an actual legitimate concern or issue based on an inherent concern. In other words, if the game had launched from the very beginning with the theme/army concept and players were locked into Man O Wars or Doom Reavers as separate armies from the very start, I very much doubt anyone at all would care or complain about it, in much the same way that nobody complains about Space Marines and Guard being different armies in 40k.

This is more like "why can't my assault intercessors fight together with phobos infiltrators"?

Both are space marines. Why couldn't they fight together?

NH Gunsmith wrote:I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.

Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.

They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.

Indeed, i have the same issue with people using apps for classic battletech as well as WM/H. a set of record sheets in page protectors or a sleeve of PP cards and a dry erase marker are incredibly easy and efficient

TwilightSparkles wrote:Removing cards hasn’t helped costs for players though ? The mark iv models are more expensive than ever.

In a vacuum? We already went through this in the thread. depending on where you are at in the world it is either comparatively super expensive or actually more reasonable for what you are getting. considering the model count/type and number needed to play an actual full game.

Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.

 Ghool wrote:
I had to quote this bit because to me it’s really telling and obvious of what make WM an overly and unnecessarily complex game:

“… the amount of memorization actually needed is exaggerated. If you're getting hit by gotchas its because you have gakky opponents who aren't forthcoming with information (to be fair, thats a large segment of the remaining community for the game) or just aren't asking the right questions to get the information you need. "Whats that models DEF? Do you have any way of increasing it?", should be a standard question every time you play before you make any decision in which you are relying on certain outcomes, ditto ARM, SPD/threat range, MAT/RAT. Likewise, asking your opponent if they have any means for out-of-activation movement/attacks is a fairly simple question, as is the ability to move/reposition/control/knockdown/freeze your models. ”

Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?

This alone extends the turn by a factor of 10, easily. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I have to ask those questions as often as they need to be asked, I’d rather just play something else that doesn’t require as much memorizing or complexity.

If we’re playing with 5-10 models a side, this kind of complexity is fine. But with a potential 25-30 models or more? Crazy waste of time.

Maybe quote the rest of that paragraph:

"Ask the questions up front at the start of the game so you know what you're going into and if you need a reminder ask for clarification as to which model could do whatever. Its not hard."

You don't need to ask the question every turn unless you have the memory of a goldfish and can't remember something basic like "guy with spear does x, guy with hat lets guy with spear do y". You're on a 40k forum. These are the same types of questions most 40k players will ask during the course of the game, if you're not asking them during a game of 40k, then you probably don't need to ask them in a game of warmachine. If you are asking them during 40k, then you probably also will need to ask them during a game of warmachine. Theres not that big a difference between the two games in that regard, except that warmachine summarizes the rules far better than 40k does and there are fewer steps of resolution in which such rules become relevant owing to how much simpler the resolution mechanics in warmachine actually are.

 emanuelb wrote:
But is this really different from 40k, where a normal army has 50-100 models, with unique rules, abilities, stratagems? And with 20+ factions. Or from malifaux, where you have tons of keywords. I think this is just a feature of complex wargames.

Yes, the people complaining about warmachine being too complex or whatever won't bat an eye about the ridiculous rules and model bloat found in 40k, nor will they stop and consider how much more complex and complicated it is to do basically anything in 40k relative to WMHDs. The entire line of argument coming from people who are primarily 40k players is absolute hypocrisy.

Admittedly..if you already hate warmachine's core rules set..then your not gonna like this one either. But in that case, start with "I don't like warmachine" so people know not to try to bother arguing the case.

Yup.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?

It is changing for the better - they announced all stat cards and rules will be free going forward via the app (whereas currently you need to pay for the cards in the app, otherwise you can download the cards free via their site but they aren't sorted/searchable, etc.)

I’ve never played 40k or any GW army game for that matter.

Then how/why are you even here???

My first ‘official’ wargame was Warmachine.

So I have no context to apply to that complexity comparison.

I have a really good memory, far from a goldfish at least, and I had a hard time recalling all the needed information regarding models. Toss in the CID and that made trying to memorizing a lot pretty tough.

I want games to be fun, and I want most of that time to be spent actually playing. I don’t need my war games to be so complex that I need to literally study rules daily to keep up, or even win.

Not every game is for every person. If its not to your enjoyment - don't play. I sat out most of Mk3 (bout 5 or 6 years now) and only occasionally kept tabs on updates to the game, etc. I can still recall what basically every one of the symbols on a Warmachine card means and how it works, as well as how many of the named abilities function (Blind causes -4MAT/DEF, can't make ranged or magic attacks, can't run/charge/slam trample; Grievous Wounds removes tough and prevents healing for one round; Iron Flesh is +2ARM and blast resistance (used to be +3DEF and -1SPD), etc. etc. et.). I wouldn't consider my memory to be particularly notable by any means, but if you play enough with some regularity you pick these things up and make them muscle memory, and once you do its not something you should forget easily.

The current MK4 official event army size is 100 points

No its not. Thats the max official army size, but not the size that Privateer Press will be promoting for competitive play going forward.

But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.

Theres really not much scrolling involved if the next iteration of the app is anything like War Room.

 aphyon wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.

Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.

They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.

Indeed, i have the same issue with people using apps for classic battletech as well as WM/H. a set of record sheets in page protectors or a sleeve of PP cards and a dry erase marker are incredibly easy and efficient

#doubt. record sheets in page protectors take up a lot of table real estate, as do cards if you're like most players and have to lay them out across the table for quick reference. an electronic device consolidates this down into a much smaller footprint, and I never have to shuffle through a stack of paper/cards trying to find the one I'm looking for because I stacked them out of order or misplaced one (most notoriously a problem with colossals/gargantuans and warcasters/warlocks which had 2 cards each), nor have I ever had to deal with one of those brainfart moments where I'm looking for a card and can't find it even though I'm staring right at it because its turned upside down to show the back of it and my brain blanks it out of existence as it searches frantically for a card front that matches its memory of what the card should look like - in the app you just look for the name of the unit you want (sorted alphabetically of course) and you click it - its that simple.

 emanuelb wrote:
Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.

Thats not really helpful as those units/casters are only Prime Legal within the legacy armies, the models for which are being discontinued and phased out of production permanently (in some cases minis for certain models/units are already no longer available). On that note the starter boxes are out of production as are the battleboxes - PP only has stock of the Cygnar and Protectorate boxes left and the others are getting harder to find via other sources.

This is not an entry point into the game for a new player. Likewise, there is no guarantee made anywhere that the contents of these boxes will be available for play in Prime legacy armies - the Cryx box is playable within the Bane army that was previewed, but the Menoth one is not (Malekus is not in the Exemplar army unless he ends up being their third caster, otherwise he'd have to be in whatever the other Menoth legacy army is). Likewisie the Castigator is not included in the Exemplar army, but the Revenger and Repenter are.

chaos0xomega wrote:


Then how/why are you even here???

One has to play 40k to be dakkadakka member/post in threads about non-40k games?

No, but as dakka is principally a 40k forum its odd for someone who doesn't play to make their home here - especially when what seems to be their "primary game" (WMHDs) barely gets posted about (12 threads in the Privateer Press board last year, 14 this year).

@chaos0xomega

Why am I even here?
Because it’s an active miniatures wargaming community forum with painters, and gamers talking about the stuff.
Just because it’s primarily a GW focused forum does not mean that discussion of other games doesn’t happen here. Just take a look at how many pages this thread is.

And for the record, GW makes a lot of other games besides 40k or AoS, and I even bought and played some of those.
I’ve been coming here for over 11 years and been playing GW board games and skirmish games for over 30 years. That enough of a reason for you?

But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine? I figured the why I’m here should be fairly obvious. But some folks are more myopic than others I suppose….

The fact that you’re asking me even to justify why I’m here feels like you’re just looking to argue.
No need to be an asshat my friend.

 emanuelb wrote:
Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.

They're also the whole reason why they switched to the new method.

@Kanluwen what do you mean?

But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine?

Because lacking experience in other games in the same niche as Warmachine immediately undermines the credibility of any criticisms you make.

When you say

WM (is) an overly and unnecessarily complex game

but then explain how you've never actually played any other comparable games, you can surely see how that comes across.

Warmachine is a complex game, it's difficult to see how one could argue otherwise. To make the case it's overly complex is much harder when compared to its contemporaries, which is a perspective you apparently don't possess. Although it is easy to see how you arrived there given your stated experience.

Umm he said hasn't played 40k. You really think there's just 2 games in the world? Oh sweet summer child.

tneva82 wrote:
Umm he said hasn't played 40k. You really think there's just 2 games in the world? Oh sweet summer child.

So I have no context to apply to that complexity comparison.

Maybe before you fall over yourself to snark at people, take a little time...

This thread got way too highschool. Can please take their personal dislikes against each other to DMs.

 Azreal13 wrote:

But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine?

Because lacking experience in other games in the same niche as Warmachine immediately undermines the credibility of any criticisms you make.

When you say

WM (is) an overly and unnecessarily complex game

but then explain how you've never actually played any other comparable games, you can surely see how that comes across.

Warmachine is a complex game, it's difficult to see how one could argue otherwise. To make the case it's overly complex is much harder when compared to its contemporaries, which is a perspective you apparently don't possess. Although it is easy to see how you arrived there given your stated experience.

So, the fact that I e been playing games for longer than most that visit this forum have even been alive counts for nothing then I suppose? Or that I worked in an LGS for three years?
Jesus you people really need to stop jumping to conclusions about folks and their related experience.
And besides, who gives a gak?
All of a sudden I’m not qualified to comment on the complexity of a game because I haven’t play TWO other games that are as complex? I have played other complex games, just not those TWO games.

High school indeed. *eyeroll*

No need to worry about any more comments from me. I don’t need to justify and defend my experiences to a bunch of kids that have no idea how to have a civil discussion.

I missed part of this, but add me to the group of people who doesn't play 40K, but plays PP games primarily now (and Malifaux, and the AMG games, and Advanced Squad Leader, etc etc).

I'm here because it's a big forum where people talk about all sorts of miniature games. Yeah, it's a lot of 40K talk. No shock, 40K is the main mini-game seller.

Ditto. I mean, I technically have played 40k, but its not the content I'm here for, just one of the few minis focused forums rather than DIscord.

Ditto. I mean, I technically have played 40k, but its not the content I'm here for, just one of the few minis focused forums rather than DIscord.

Exactly. I should add- yes I have played 40K (2nd through 6th edition). It was fine. I just don't play anymore.

Let's all stare at these new Khador Winter Koprs renders for MkIV instead of discussing the former subject.

Khador once again defeats Cygnar in the facial hair department with this glorious Standard Bearer Mustache. And a damn tactical rock again.


Standard Bearer


Officer


Mortar Team.

They finally moved the weapon teams to 1 base, looks like.

Models look great- I actually really like the Mortar Team becoming an easy to use solo rather than the slightly more cumbersome unit.

They were really only a unit before for wound tracking purposes.

Great looking resculpts. Still not feeling "new" to me, but its not like I'd want to get rid of what makes Khador iconic, just excited to see some of the new stuff.

There were some fiddly bits with Take Up and such, which made artillery a bit more resilient than just a solo like this one, but tbh there is no particular reason to do it the old way. Being a solo it will suffer somewhat in the movement department compared to the 1+1/2 artillery units, but with RNG14 it is not like these guys are going to move a lot after the initial turn run anyway.