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 Vineheart01 wrote:
6 meltas with marine shenanigans stacked on it can easily pop a naut outside of 12"
Thats how stupid that unit is. They are going to delete things 2x-3x their price without even blinking an eye, and unless you have access to high ap 3damage guns (which orks dont) you wont get rid of them without expelling 2x-3x points worth of shooting either.

If they're Iron Hands, D3 has only a 60% chance of one-shotting them.

If they have a 5+++, such as from a Chief Apothecary, it drops to a 30% chance.

I dunno. They're certainly not bad, but I feel the fact that they can't take impulsors to tokyo drift them across the board to their ideal targets that it means at least there's fair counterplay in screening and shooting them. With them being reliant on support bubbles as well means that they have to be aggressive due to their short range, which means they have to walk into the teeth of most enemy guns. Smasha Guns seem like a good counter to them IMO.

 Grimskul wrote:
I dunno. They're certainly not bad, but I feel the fact that they can't take impulsors to tokyo drift them across the board to their ideal targets that it means at least there's fair counterplay in screening and shooting them. With them being reliant on support bubbles as well means that they have to be aggressive due to their short range, which means they have to walk into the teeth of most enemy guns. Smasha Guns seem like a good counter to them IMO.

Are they reliant on support bubbles?

Or do they just have far more support than any other faction does, but still are good without that?

The latter.
No marine unit is dependent on auras to function. But they get them in droves anyway to turn an otherwise "good" unit into something ridiculous.

Also with 24" range and assault weapon type the only things thats gonna be difficult to nab are stuff out of LoS or extreme range vehicles. Any mid-range vehicle is going to be in this unit's danger zone very quick if not right away.
Theyre not like Aggressors where moving is a problem and their range sucks.

tulun wrote:
People have suggested this.

But I guarantee you they'll just errata it.

https://i.imgur.com/XQ71jWj.png

They don't need to - there is also a rule that forces you to kill models in units until you reach coherency. If a single model in that picture gets killed, everything but the triangle on the other end implodes.

In the GSC preview there also is a piece of rules on how actions are performed (aka stuff you do to gain VP) - you are basically unable to do anything at all while performing actions, and the action gets interrupted if something happens to the unit. Which makes me think that meks and gretchin (and Makari!) might actually be valuable in lists again, since you don't want a 100+ points ork unit standing around doing nothing, as we learned from the Mek Workshop.

That depends on how many primary objectives are actions. So far we have seen some secondaries but since you can select your secondaries you can avoid those if you don't want actions.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The latter.
No marine unit is dependent on auras to function. But they get them in droves anyway to turn an otherwise "good" unit into something ridiculous.

Also with 24" range and assault weapon type the only things thats gonna be difficult to nab are stuff out of LoS or extreme range vehicles. Any mid-range vehicle is going to be in this unit's danger zone very quick if not right away.
Theyre not like Aggressors where moving is a problem and their range sucks.

Considering lucky is a thing for Marines, these units could get 2 hit and wound rerolls for free.

So...yeah, not aura dependent.

Salamanders are by far the last legion I'm worried about

 Jidmah wrote:
Salamanders are by far the last legion I'm worried about

Successors can get lucky too, sadly. It's one of the generic traits.

How about raven guard making an intercessor a 17 points (now 20) terminator ? ....

Anyway ATM feels like a revisited version of the Ben jurek mech freebooterz list might be a really good thing.

Also is 3 months since they dropped SotB and we still don't know dafuq is gonna happen with the KFF and Ghaz..

 Jidmah wrote:


In the GSC preview there also is a piece of rules on how actions are performed (aka stuff you do to gain VP) - you are basically unable to do anything at all while performing actions, and the action gets interrupted if something happens to the unit. Which makes me think that meks and gretchin (and Makari!) might actually be valuable in lists again, since you don't want a 100+ points ork unit standing around doing nothing, as we learned from the Mek Workshop.

I am SO interested if Obsec is still a thing too. This might be a huge edge for Deathskulls.

Mega Nobs with Obsec might be incredible. Even performing an action, it seems like based on the text, the only thing you CAN do is fight back if charged. Mega Nobs are already amazing at camping objectives, and they could perform an action and dare the enemy to charge them, and punish them if they survive.

How the new coherency rule could affect our orks? I think pure shootig units like Lootas, Tankbustas or Flash Gitz couldn't care, only screeners and melee units should change a bit.

It would be more difficult to buff with some auras (Warboss, Banner Nob, Painboy) multiple squads of boyz for example.

I'm more focussed on specialists though. Killa Kanz shouldn't have problems in 6 man squads, they'll likely suffer one casualty before reaching melee but if coherency screws 6 man squads they're perfectly fine in 5 man squads.

Meganobz and nobz are probably the units that will be most affected by the new rules. I'm running 5 man squads of Meganobz for a while so I won't change anything for them, and Nobz are tipycally running in a vehicle.

Screening Gretchins could be different, large squads will have the edge over min ones. 10 man Gretchins will still be useful for Objectives or actions.

About actions and expendable units maybe we'll see more koptas into game. They're cheap, fast, can fly and more durable than 10 grots. Even a Smasha Gun is cheap enough to justify one turn of resting, but it can support the army if needed since it has good shooting.

I doubt the coherency rules would affect us in a negative way when taking casualties. You should usually be able to prevent taking losses from not being in coherency, and I think it will be ruled such a way that when a unit drops below 6 models due to coherency kills, it will no longer require you to keep two models in coherency.

Pain boy might have become even more useless due to their 3" aura, and I might have to rethink how to move my kult of speed warbikers if I want to keep them in warboss/wartrike aura range.

What has become a lot harder now are multi-charges, not only do you have to actually reach all the targets, but you also cannot string out your unit as well as we used to.

On the other hand units of 10 guardsmen or cultists suck at screening now, so that's good for us, leaving more openings to move through.

The coherency rules only mean that our lines have to be twice as thick. You can still daisy chain, just not as far.

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
_o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

:Edit:

I had to add an underscore to get the diagram to do what I wanted. Dakka's auto format is screwing with me

You still lose that aura as soon as you take two or three casualties, unlike before when you could take out models in the middle and restore coherency on your next move.

well i am glad that congo lining is gone... really hated the concept of it (was still doing it of course )

but i dont think we will ever see big mobs anymore... to time consumeing to move, to vurnable, they dont really benefit from terrain as much and cannot trap units in CC anymore (multicharge is also to difficult now)

On the plus side, even less incentive than before to move the models out of their movement trays (well at least the trays I own).

That really is the single only upside I have found to this... The rest... Feels like they really are trying their best to discourage large unit play

which is comical because they fixed one of the largest issues with large units: morale. Morale is more of an annoyance now rather than a crutch that kills the other half of a unit that got blasted almost 100% of the time.

If Blast was limited to big guns i dont think it would be a factor but they are making it sound like literally all DX shot weapons except flamers are blast now. Theres a good deal of S4/S5 high random shot guns out there that already wreck havoc on grots and boyz, and now they suddenly get max shots.
I wouldnt be mad about a 4D6 S8+ weapon hitting my boyz, i'd laugh about that one. But an S4 gun...thats the optimal target.

Stuff like IG Wyverns are pretty darn scary now for boyz blobs (and daemons etc) now. 24 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.

PiñaColada wrote:
Stuff like IG Wyverns are pretty darn scary now for boyz blobs (and daemons etc) now. 24 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.

Not if we all play dredd mobs and speed freaks hah hah ! Metal Waaaaagh ! That will show em, horde hatin biattttttttttchs (sorry i got carried away)

Well that will be the orks in 9th

PiñaColada wrote:
Stuff like IG Wyverns are pretty darn scary now for boyz blobs (and daemons etc) now. 24 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.

You think so? Without the blast rule, it kills an average of 2.917 boyz, with maximum shots it's 5.
I'd wager in most cases, the old moral rules would kill more boyz than the new blast rule does.

im more worried about TFC's than Wyverns.
They actually hit you.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Stuff like IG Wyverns are pretty darn scary now for boyz blobs (and daemons etc) now. 24 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.

You think so? Without the blast rule, it kills an average of 2.917 boyz, with maximum shots it's 5.
I'd wager in most cases, the old moral rules would kill more boyz than the new blast rule does.

How do you get that?

24 shots
12 hits
9 wounds
7.5 dead Boys

7,5 dead boyz = probably 50 points if we are lucky (boyz stay at 7), 60 points if we are not. So 40% of the wyvern's cost, wide guess from what we know.
Even if 30%, that is huge.

But yes moral mitigation is nice, we should not take that for granted.

It will all boil down to how much an ork boy costs

Yeah, exactly it's 7.5 assuming the heavy bolter can't shoot (which is somewhat fair) and they are not cadians. It also assumes it's not buffed by direct onslaught or in the emperors wrath detachment.

And I seriously doubt boyz are staying at 7, I'd say 8 and we're lucky considering what we've seen so far..

Edit: Just as an argument, if they're cadian and buffed by direct onslaught (meaning the HB can also shoot), one wyvern then kills roughly 14,5 boyz (13,1 + 1,2 from the HB)

RedNoak wrote:
well i am glad that congo lining is gone... really hated the concept of it (was still doing it of course )

but i dont think we will ever see big mobs anymore... to time consumeing to move, to vurnable, they dont really benefit from terrain as much and cannot trap units in CC anymore (multicharge is also to difficult now)

I think you might see Guard....but ya orks it’s grots not boys

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Stuff like IG Wyverns are pretty darn scary now for boyz blobs (and daemons etc) now. 24 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.

You think so? Without the blast rule, it kills an average of 2.917 boyz, with maximum shots it's 5.
I'd wager in most cases, the old moral rules would kill more boyz than the new blast rule does.

How do you get that?

24 shots
12 hits
9 wounds
7.5 dead Boys

Wyvern is S4, so it's 6 wounds, 5 dead boyz.

TF cannon in full BS mode (double shots, re-roll all to hit, re-roll ones to wound) kills 16.593 instead of 11.062 because of blast. From the 4chan leak we also know it goes up to 130 from 92.

I agree that the new rules are unfavorable for boyz in pretty much every way, but blast is by far not the thing we should worry about most.

Wyvern rerolls wounds.

True, but in that case my pre-blast number is also wrong.

So even with the cadian trait, the wyvern now kills 3-4 additional boyz. My point remains, the gain by blast weapons is less than the losses the old moral rules would have inflicted.