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Huh, thought that was actually fanon, but I just looked it up. Fair enough, ignore me.

Okay, after seeing that about the Wyrms, my view on them has altered somewhat.

That pic, and the comparison to a WFB Wyvern makes me question as to how available these creatures should be. Looking at this and their (IMO disproportionate) durability, the Wyrms should be equated to something like a Leman Russ. There shouldn't be lots of Wyrms at that strength, and the value of them should be absolute - it takes time to raise, train and grow a Wyrm, and that should be reflected by their scarcity on the field.

I don't know, but I'm seeing a bit of a clash of idealologies here - massed cavalry (basically reptilian horses with wings and a tougher skin and strength) vs very powerful, very large mini-dragons which should be about as rare as a Leman Russ. I'd just need clarification as to which one of the two you lean towards.
Also, not to sound rude, but I do think you're overstating the durability of these Wyrms - if a plasma gun can semi-reliably one shot an Astartes, a godlike figure for humans boasting huge durability, then a Wyrm should be put down in a similar manner too. Small arms resistance I can get behind, but when they can shrug off hits like a Battle Tank or Knight, I think some rescaling is an issue.

They do seem powerful which is fine but i think their numbers do need to be culled. I like the concept and it gives your guys a sense of character but when i read diamond scales i was like whoa

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Okay, after seeing that about the Wyrms, my view on them has altered somewhat.

That pic, and the comparison to a WFB Wyvern makes me question as to how available these creatures should be. Looking at this and their (IMO disproportionate) durability, the Wyrms should be equated to something like a Leman Russ. There shouldn't be lots of Wyrms at that strength, and the value of them should be absolute - it takes time to raise, train and grow a Wyrm, and that should be reflected by their scarcity on the field.

I don't know, but I'm seeing a bit of a clash of idealologies here - massed cavalry (basically reptilian horses with wings and a tougher skin and strength) vs very powerful, very large mini-dragons which should be about as rare as a Leman Russ. I'd just need clarification as to which one of the two you lean towards.
Also, not to sound rude, but I do think you're overstating the durability of these Wyrms - if a plasma gun can semi-reliably one shot an Astartes, a godlike figure for humans boasting huge durability, then a Wyrm should be put down in a similar manner too. Small arms resistance I can get behind, but when they can shrug off hits like a Battle Tank or Knight, I think some rescaling is an issue.

^^This.

I mean, you can't have 50 mounted dragons on the field(especially in the confines of the streets of a hive), who can tank about as much as an Astartes, only they are faster, can fly, breathe fire and effectively rip the absolute gak out of anything in combat. Some rescaling is an understatement.

Unless they can be risen from the grave in which case i will take 20

If you have a bit too many of those Wyrms , the Remnants will gladly hold on to them for you until you need them again

(the list of things to be stolen grows ever longer!)

I think the creatures themselves are very reasonable, by all accounts the Dragons that Exodites utilise are of similar calibre when they're that size, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to say they got these things from a Maiden world, for example. There's plenty of scary wildlife elsewhere in the 40k universe, as well.

I agree that they should probably have a different battlefield role to massed cavalry, though, if that was their initial intended purpose. They seem more suited to the gunship role on the battlefield than anything else.

there is perhaps 150 Combat worthy of them among 3000 troopers. The mass calvary is Motorbikes. I said they were the Elite Calvary not massed. Look back at my Battalion break up. Each Battalion has like 10 except 3rd which has over a hundred. 3rd also has twice as many horses and twice again or more of bikes. The first two battalions is bikes, sentinels, Tauros, and command Salamanders, and the last battalion has Chimeras And Tauroxes.

Can't breath fire. Are not Space Marine intelligent. ( IE are my most elite unit of a Regiment numbering almost 3000.)

Edit: I can get behind negotiations on how tough they are but then again my 'tanks' are the Wyrms and Chimeras.

Wait, they don't breath fire?

Do they mostly stay airborne in battle, or are they mostly ground-side units that fly for short bursts?

 Robin5t wrote:
Wait, they don't breath fire?

Do they mostly stay airborne in battle, or are they mostly ground-side units that fly for short bursts?

"True desert-dragons, designed to cope with and even thrive in hot sands. Not fire-breathing; trying to work out things as big at that which fly and carry a rider was going to be difficult enough to set up logically. It would make them, more-or-less, the equivalent of WWI biplanes, with riders perhaps dropping pots of Greek Fire, or snatching up military leaders to drop them from a great height, and certainly spying and patrolling from above." - Mercedes Lackey

Also their riders are armed with Lances, Grenades, Javelins, Laspistols or heavier pistols. and yes groundside they are fierce but not perfered combat because they lose some mobility.

 Drakka77 wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Wait, they don't breath fire?

Do they mostly stay airborne in battle, or are they mostly ground-side units that fly for short bursts?

"True desert-dragons, designed to cope with and even thrive in hot sands. Not fire-breathing; trying to work out things as big at that which fly and carry a rider was going to be difficult enough to set up logically. It would make them, more-or-less, the equivalent of WWI biplanes, with riders perhaps dropping pots of Greek Fire, or snatching up military leaders to drop them from a great height, and certainly spying and patrolling from above." - Mercedes Lackey

Also their riders are armed with Lances, Grenades, Javelins, Laspistols or heavier pistols. and yes groundside they are fierce but not perfered combat because they lose some mobility.

Well... going to be honest, these critters, while a phenomenal force multiplier for pre-industrial warfare, sound horrifically unsuited for a battlefield where anti-air and interceptors are a thing. I'm not sure why people thought they would be overpowered.

I think it was mostly the idea of having miniature dragons running around torching and mauling everyone's infantry whilst shrugging off both light and heavy calibre firepower that got people concerned.

I think people got wrapped around certain tough aspects not realizing that the total concept is about the same level of really tough flying horses.

So, what we're looking at is a Heldrake with no Baleflamer, can be fielded alongside a rider with various gear, and seems to be immune to critical damage from MC killing tools (in the fluff, that is).

One could still equate these to flying Leman Russ, by which 100 in a Company is too much. Typical LRBT companies operate (in the fluff) in 3x3+1 squadrons, giving about 10 tanks per company. Leave them as the elite tide-changing creatures they are, but to fit with typical IG doctrine, 10 of them in an Elite Company works better. Unless you wish to break from Departmento Munitorum guides, and risk some scrutiny from authority figures?

Also, the remark about AA being more effective - if a plasma bolt doesn't reliably dealt fatal/near fatal damage, autocannon rounds will be quite less effective.

Again, you seem to create levels of misunderstanding. Are these on the level of horses and treated like flying crocodiles, reducing their durability, or tough, large creatures like a typical Wyvern or young Dragon?

100 for a Battalion so maybe 20 per company. I said plasma would be severe damage (IE if you hit the biggest parts of him he could survive, hitting his head will of course kill him, and hitting wings which dont have armor will bring him down to the ground.)

Edit: Offensively not much more dangerous than any other calvary man, defensively yeah I guess Leman Russ tough to take out.

The other three battalions have like 5- 10 total. And of course Colonel Raven has his own. So his guard probably has their own.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, what we're looking at is a Heldrake with no Baleflamer, can be fielded alongside a rider with various gear, and seems to be immune to critical damage from MC killing tools (in the fluff, that is).

One could still equate these to flying Leman Russ, by which 100 in a Company is too much. Typical LRBT companies operate (in the fluff) in 3x3+1 squadrons, giving about 10 tanks per company. Leave them as the elite tide-changing creatures they are, but to fit with typical IG doctrine, 10 of them in an Elite Company works better. Unless you wish to break from Departmento Munitorum guides, and risk some scrutiny from authority figures?

Also, the remark about AA being more effective - if a plasma bolt doesn't reliably dealt fatal/near fatal damage, autocannon rounds will be quite less effective.

Thing is, even if the Wyrm can survive a burst of dedicated anti-air (which is more often than not missiles or, failing that, flak) the riders most certainly can't. They literally become nothing but a near-brainless flying distraction the moment an interceptor does a boom and zoom on them or an anti-air battery lights them up.

You say the wings are leathery. Could some lasrounds pierce those, perhaps? Also, if one of those lizards opens his mouth, I'm assuming it won't have scales on the inside. A lucky shot could kill them that way as well?

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
You say the wings are leathery. Could some lasrounds pierce those, perhaps? Also, if one of those lizards opens his mouth, I'm assuming it won't have scales on the inside. A lucky shot could kill them that way as well?

Yes and yes though it would take alot of las to the wings but it will still take one to the ground.

How would they be against an actual dragon ?

And again, unless they somehow manage to control the descent of a heavy, flying creature with perforated wings, that's another dead rider right there.

This is the issue with utilising exceedingly tough creatures as mounts to try and make use of their physical ability - the most important part is still the squishy human on the back, as that's the part that thinks and, more importantly, follows your orders.

Of course, this is 40k, so 'awesome but impractical' fits in extremely well, here - I'm just making the point that these creatures should not be in any way gamebreaking for any of the armies in the field right now.

I'm not worried about them being OP, I'm just trying to understand just how durable they are. Besides, if push ever comes to shove, kroot are used to hunting the big 'uns for genes. Add some wyrms to the list of hunted creatures I suppose. That is not to say it will be easy, but it is possible.

This is why I went with Valkyries/Vendettas for the go-to mount for my Guardsmen. No one will ever accuse Valkyries of being "OP" and most people know how to take one down.

 Robin5t wrote:
And again, unless they somehow manage to control the descent of a heavy, flying creature with perforated wings, that's another dead rider right there.

This is the issue with utilising exceedingly tough creatures as mounts to try and make use of their physical ability - the most important part is still the squishy human on the back, as that's the part that thinks and, more importantly, follows your orders.

Of course, this is 40k, so 'awesome but impractical' fits in extremely well, here - I'm just making the point that these creatures should not be in any way gamebreaking for any of the armies in the field right now.

Thank you. This very much so.

We were by no means trying to insult you or anything, we were just a bit scared about the OPness of these wyverns.

So, I still need rolls from Bob, Vanden, and Chazz if he plans on helping with the Gargant. Sorry if I'm coming off as spammy, but I figured a friendly reminder from your Friendly Not So Local (deputy) GM might be helpful.

Wasn't insulted at all. I was actually enjoying this debate but struggling to word how both tough and weak they can be. And the fact their current objective isn't what the army was designed against.

Waiting on Chazz to stamp off my next move on Hive Cogger.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
So, I still need rolls from Bob, Vanden, and Chazz if he plans on helping with the Gargant. Sorry if I'm coming off as spammy, but I figured a friendly reminder from your Friendly Not So Local (deputy) GM might be helpful.

I'll do that right now.

What am I rolling for again?

Oh just because it was questioned at some point. A full grown Wyrm and trained Rider takes 2-3 years in my mind. There would of course be a small number not trained up yet and probably on training duties.

For your duties in the gargant event.