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Looks okay to me. Not sure about the infernus though - is it for the strat?
As far as primaris go, your arrangement seems a bit odd. The aggressors are doing nowt for the hellblasters, which are spread out across a wide area, and will therefore often find themselves unable to overcharge. I'd suggest putting the 9 hellblasters in one team, and DSing it using the strat, straight into rapidfire range where they yearn to be! Your jumpcap shoud be on call to suport them when they drop, and giving him the beacon could be clutch (they get caught in cc? no problem, beam them out and fire at will). That leaves you with 3 fortis teams, each with an aggressor. Nice. I prefer assault bolters, others rifles (see the discussion above). I'd recommend running both in your list and working out for yourself which you prefer.
Finally, your razorback and vens could really benefit from the aegis dominatus relic. It wont fit in this list, but worth a try in the future. Your dreads will have 5++ and 6+++, which makes them much more tanky, plus the cap holding the shield gives reroll 1s which is huge on low rate of fire/high damage units.
Finally, I'd drop one marine from your killteams and plug some more Stormshields in both squads - they will be hvts and therefore one 3++ roll aint going to do much on its own.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/25 07:51:55
grouchoben wrote: Looks okay to me. Not sure about the infernus though - is it for the strat?
As far as primaris go, your arrangement seems a bit odd. The aggressors are doing nowt for the hellblasters, which are spread out across a wide area, and will therefore often find themselves unable to overcharge. I'd suggest putting the 9 hellblasters in one team, and DSing it using the strat, straight into rapidfire range where they yearn to be! Your jumpcap shoud be on call to suport them when they drop, and giving him the beacon could be clutch (they get caught in cc? no problem, beam them out and fire at will). That leaves you with 3 fortis teams, each with an aggressor. Nice. I prefer assault bolters, others rifles (see the discussion above). I'd recommend running both in your list and working out for yourself which you prefer.
Finally, your razorback and vens could really benefit from the aegis dominatus relic. It wont fit in this list, but worth a try in the future. Your dreads will have 5++ and 6+++, which makes them much more tanky, plus the cap holding the shield gives reroll 1s which is huge on low rate of fire/high damage units.
Finally, I'd drop one marine from your killteams and plug some more Stormshields in both squads - they will be hvts and therefore one 3++ roll aint going to do much on its own.
Thanks for the feedback dude yeah the internus is there for the mortal wound strategy on vehicles plus it's quite cheap and looks cool.
I've put the hellblasters in the intercessor units to try and keep them alive. I'm thinking of binning the aggressors completely and adding more stuff to the vets.
Your call, but DS Hellblasters and Aggressor + Intercessors for bully units are two of my favourite units in DW right now. Hellblasters & Intercessors costs 270pts, 10 hellblasters costs 340pts. Youre spending a cp on DS, another 2 on a doctrine, so the opportunity cost is quite high, so I like to make it count. Have a play around with them though - that's the beauty of building a DW army, it allows for so many builds for you to explore - each squad you paint unlocks more options. Good luck dude.
Captain Garius wrote: I should also point out that my Fortis Kill Teams are not relegated to anti-chaff units only, so maybe that influences their use. Mine fairly often are the units used to take out monsters and elite infantry as well. My Hellblasters are usually on tanks all game, so they don't have a lot of extra time.
Interestingly... I ran the math on 10 SB Vets vs 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, and against anything T5 or higher the Bolt Rifles, even though they are half the shots, almost put the same number of wounds as the SB's... Cut them down to the same number of shots and the Rifles blow them out of the water. I see a very similar correlation with the BR and ABR comparison, but it depends on what you are using them for. Just Chaff? Go SB Vets. Fast way of synergizing with Bolter Inceptors and Aggressors? ABRs. Generalist unit that will do what they need to? I argue it's hard to do better than the BR. Deathwatch are one of the best overall Chaff clearers in the game, so I try to focus on units that can handle other things our success isn't as prolific at.
No arguments here. Was just planting my flag on there being no real reason to bring an Aggressor in a bolt rifle squad. No need for the buff he brings and you're actively harming yourself by being shackled to a 5" move if your goal is to get the squad into his range. Choose to advance, and every Intercessor in that squad ends up an expensive ablative wound.
I personally really like the bolt rifle alongside Hellblasters or a couple plasma Inceptors. Or in a plain, 5 man unit.
grouchoben wrote: I'm with you Lemondish. Aggressors and auto bolt rifles dovetail very nicely, I always start my lists with 2 of them and a SB killteam.
The squads advance on the first turn and then hardly move, in my experience. I like the 30" assault 2 -1 profile.
If they don't move, why not take the standard bolt rifle for the extra 6" of 'not in melee'?
They're mathematically better outside 15 and entirely worse inside 15. If you have an aggressor in the squad you are going to be very close to the 18" mark and with kraken will double tap at that range anyways. I hold that you want to play dangerously and live in that short-mid range zone to leverage your superior melee profiles and pressure more shooty armies when possible. Factor in also that getting within 15-18 inches with a bolt rifle is very easy and takes one or two turns depending on the army you are facing and who goes first. You can also deepstrike within rapid fire ranged easily if you so choose. Hellblasters are a great unit to put inside a kill team and they want to be in that sweet 15 inch range bracket anyways.
Bolt rifles have superior synergy with these models and are cheaper. I want to be close no matter what due to the inceptor, aggressors and hellblasters wanting to be in 15-18. If you are ONLY running the team as an anti chaff unit then maybe I can see going with assault bolters to get into position a bit better, but once there you never want to move anyway so the aggressor can double tap.
Even if I had a hardcore chaff eating unit I'd stick it in reserve so it does not get eaten alive turn 1 thus nullifying the mobility advantage of the assualt bolter option.
Edit: The -1 ap on the bolt rifle is a BIG deal. It reduces a guardsmen chance to survive a shot by 50% and takes marine bodies from 1/3 fails to 1/2 fails. Hellfire always wounding on twos is almost always the best option in rapid fire which is what you want to be in.
If you have an Aggressor in the squad, he's stuck moving 5" every turn if you want the Intercessors to fire. Otherwise you advance and they're silent. That is not synergistic at all - that's the exact opposite. It's conflicting.
As such, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that it's easy to get within 18" of anything other than chaff. Perhaps if you advance, but at the cost of half the squad's firepower? No, thank you.
Bolt rifles are great - just not with Aggressors. No reason to add them in, not with what you have in mind for the squad, because they definitely do not synergize at all with bolt rifles. Their buff is entirely wasted - that's a good sign that it's not the best addition here.
But I think we've said all that matters here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 03:28:30
That's very true. The Aggressors don't synergize with the bolt rifles at all. Now I have only played two games with them in my Intercessor squads rather than in a Raven Guard detachment so keep that in mind as I give this anecdotal evidence lol:
Both games I have placed them on the front line of my deployment. One game was Vanguard Deployment and the other was Dawn of War. In both games, they never had to move much. The vanguard game they moved once and then stayed still the rest of the game and in the other, I was shooting from turn one without moving. I think if you have more than a single Aggressor (And I typically run 3 in a squad) then you really want to be sitting still. So I will move the Intercessors around the Aggressor turrets to manipulate their RF range, and then split fire what I need to to make them useful.
thoughts guys?? im not 100 percent on this list but i do have all the models, the plan is for the venerable dreads to sit back and plink away with lascannon and ML. The corvus and razorback go forward with the veterans and use them on infantry targets while the intercessors slog on foot. Im not sold on putting an aggressor in with the primaris and they are quite pricey.
One of the options i could go with is drop the aggressors and use the points to chuck on my razorback vets to give them some combi meltas.
You have some really good components and the list seems focused on letting the enemy rush into you - are you in a melee heavy meta? I'd actually drop the corvus in this instance - it's really an attack minded craft and you have a pretty heavy defensive list. I'd swap it for something melee oriented - maybe a vanguard vet/bike squad or a 3 man boltstorm agressor squad - something that can react to the inevitable melee conflict and provide a counter-punch.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
They're mathematically better outside 15 and entirely worse inside 15. If you have an aggressor in the squad you are going to be very close to the 18" mark and with kraken will double tap at that range anyways. I hold that you want to play dangerously and live in that short-mid range zone to leverage your superior melee profiles and pressure more shooty armies when possible. Factor in also that getting within 15-18 inches with a bolt rifle is very easy and takes one or two turns depending on the army you are facing and who goes first. You can also deepstrike within rapid fire ranged easily if you so choose. Hellblasters are a great unit to put inside a kill team and they want to be in that sweet 15 inch range bracket anyways.
Bolt rifles have superior synergy with these models and are cheaper. I want to be close no matter what due to the inceptor, aggressors and hellblasters wanting to be in 15-18. If you are ONLY running the team as an anti chaff unit then maybe I can see going with assault bolters to get into position a bit better, but once there you never want to move anyway so the aggressor can double tap.
Even if I had a hardcore chaff eating unit I'd stick it in reserve so it does not get eaten alive turn 1 thus nullifying the mobility advantage of the assualt bolter option.
Edit: The -1 ap on the bolt rifle is a BIG deal. It reduces a guardsmen chance to survive a shot by 50% and takes marine bodies from 1/3 fails to 1/2 fails. Hellfire always wounding on twos is almost always the best option in rapid fire which is what you want to be in.
If you have an Aggressor in the squad, he's stuck moving 5" every turn if you want the Intercessors to fire. Otherwise you advance and they're silent. That is not synergistic at all - that's the exact opposite. It's conflicting.
As such, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that it's easy to get within 18" of anything other than chaff. Perhaps if you advance, but at the cost of half the squad's firepower? No, thank you.
Bolt rifles are great - just not with Aggressors. No reason to add them in, not with what you have in mind for the squad, because they definitely do not synergize at all with bolt rifles. Their buff is entirely wasted - that's a good sign that it's not the best addition here.
But I think we've said all that matters here.
The reason I say there is synergy with the bolt rifles and the aggressor is that the aggressors range is 18 inches which puts your rapid firing bolt rifles in in perfect rapid fire range or double tapping hellfire if they are 3 inches closer. You are 3 inches away from making the more expensive assault bolters entirely inferior. I will admit though I do see your point about getting into position and counteracting the inferior assault firepower by being able to possibly fire with the aggressor turn one and have a more mobile unit. Personally I do see myself sticking to the rifles and deep striking in anti chaff units to completely negate the advantage offered by assault weapons, but I do see your point and respect it. Next time I get a game in I'll try a squad or two of assault bolters and see how it works for me. Maybe I'm entirely wrong and they're amazing or I'll hate them and stick to my original position. Won't knew for a fact till I try it a few times.
thoughts guys?? im not 100 percent on this list but i do have all the models, the plan is for the venerable dreads to sit back and plink away with lascannon and ML. The corvus and razorback go forward with the veterans and use them on infantry targets while the intercessors slog on foot. Im not sold on putting an aggressor in with the primaris and they are quite pricey.
One of the options i could go with is drop the aggressors and use the points to chuck on my razorback vets to give them some combi meltas.
I'd say chuck out the Aggressors definitely, and I absolutely love combi-meltas (I've been running three squads carrying a couple combi-meltas in Assault Cannon Razorbacks lately), but I imagine combi-plasma is probably more tactically flexible and probably about as powerful (except within melta range).
Another way to go is trying to find some way to fit in Inceptors there instead of the Aggressors. One of the biggest ways units can silence Hellblasters is by running something into them, be it a chaff unit or some fast transport or the like. If your local meta likes to use transports and vehicles aggressively like this it might be worth considering the Inceptors so you aren't tied down so easily. I lost count of the times a Wave Serpent flew into my Codex Marine Hellblasters.
As for the Corvus, I'm a huge fan of just ditching that Stormstrike launcher for the Blackstar Rocket Launchers just to add a bunch more str 6 shooting and double down on what works best. 2, str 8, ap -3, 3 damage shots hitting 50% of the time means you'll usually only get one through - not really worth it if you ask me. Same issue with the Lascannons on the Corvus - too few shots to be reliable when you're only hitting 50% of the time. Save 12 points by going with 2d6 additional str 6 shots that are more accurate against targets with Fly, make better use of your auspex array, and partially overcomes the movement penalty through sheer number of shots. Different primary targets entirely though, so stick with the Stormstrike if you like the flexibility here.
Also, and sorry to rain on your parade, but I think that Watch Captain has an invalid build. The most recent data sheet is the one in the codex and I think it says you have to trade in your master crafted boltgun AND chainsword for two items in the equipment list, so you can't take the master crafted boltgun alongside a thunder hammer, sadly. Don't even think this was a valid Index option, either, since there was only one wargear option available.
The reason I say there is synergy with the bolt rifles and the aggressor is that the aggressors range is 18 inches which puts your rapid firing bolt rifles in in perfect rapid fire range or double tapping hellfire if they are 3 inches closer. You are 3 inches away from making the more expensive assault bolters entirely inferior. I will admit though I do see your point about getting into position and counteracting the inferior assault firepower by being able to possibly fire with the aggressor turn one and have a more mobile unit. Personally I do see myself sticking to the rifles and deep striking in anti chaff units to completely negate the advantage offered by assault weapons, but I do see your point and respect it. Next time I get a game in I'll try a squad or two of assault bolters and see how it works for me. Maybe I'm entirely wrong and they're amazing or I'll hate them and stick to my original position. Won't knew for a fact till I try it a few times.
I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong, or even wrong at all. It's really more about the role of the Aggressor I was trying to get at. He's a good source of dakka, and you can work around the downsides of his 5'' movement and the lack of synergy running him without assault or heavy weapons, but I'm not sure that's worth it. I think the AP-1 is really valuable, and it's such good weapon for SIA: AP -3 potentially, AP -2 at massive range, hellfire at AP -1 = the sweet spot. I just don't like shackling them to an Aggressor. I've found that they're far more powerful as the bodyguards and ablative wounds for Hellblasters.
Where I find the value the most with assault bolt rifles is that I'm giving up a point of AP at 15'' or less and gaining the ability to move 7 to 12'' for 5 more points. That type of tactical flexibility to get my shooting where it needs to go has been a massive boon for me in my local meta. Screening units, tar pits, horde swarms, etc. are numerous in my local meta, so a way for me to both punch a hole in those and reposition to capture objectives potentially at the speed of a Rhino is awesome. Reaching into the opponent's backfield early on with 10 shots of SIA from just 5 guys at 30'' has been really flexible, but at the same time if I need to play defensively and avoid the double tap range on rapid fire plasma, I can dance in that sweet zone.
Ultimately, I think your build is a more offensive take that definitely brings some more pain, but I personally prefer the tactical flexibility of the extra mobility. I think what's clear here is that they play kind of differently, and if you aren't inclined to or able to take advantage of that extra movement, then it isn't much of a boon I guess. So definitely see your point there.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 18:17:22
Cheers for all the list feed back guys, I agree about the corvus probably being a bit redundant here and I have been ticking over in my head how to actually use it properly. I have just painted it up though and I does look cool!
I've switched up the second veteran squad for 5 vets, 3 combi melta and 2 storm bolter storm shield. They will probably go in the blackstar for now as I don't have any other stuff to bring my points up. I will use the corvus to attack a high priority target and drop the combi meltas to slag it.
I haven't even played a game yet though so it's all theory so far I'm sure it will get chopped and changed the more units I paint up.
I've been running pure Primaris Ravenguard for a while, but the lure of SIA and better stratagems (outside of SFTS, I tend to only use CP on rerolls) has made me look at deathwatch.
Question the first: given the increase in damage output from SIA, is it viable to ignore the fortis kill teams and just run 5 man intercessor squads?
Question the second: How would you combine the following into an effective pure primaris deathwatch list?
Spoiler:
Primaris Librarian, Primaris Watch Captain, 15 intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 9 aggressors with boltstorm, 6 inceptors with plasma, 15 hellblasters with auto plasma
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/03 13:37:55
Ericthegreen wrote: How would you combine the following into an effective pure primaris deathwatch list?
Primaris Librarian, Primaris Watch Captain, 15 intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 9 aggressors with boltstorm, 6 inceptors with plasma, 15 hellblasters with auto plasma
Well, that’s a battalion, so how to divy up the extras to fill up the teams in the question.
5 intercessors, 4 agressors, 1 inceptor. Gives you T5, tons of dakka, and fall back and shoot.
5 intercessors, 4 hellblaster, 1 inceptor. Hot plasma lovin’ that can’t be locked in CC
I was going to say the move and fire bit of the aggressors won’t help your guns, but noticed you said auto-plasma. So if you swap a hellblaster out for an agressor in that last squad, you can advance up the field and fire at full effect.
If you took two of the first squad and used the DS strategem, you can drop a ton of pain in someone’s lap. The second squad (with the aggressor) can start on the table and move where needed. Or drop and bake, depending.
Depending how you kit out your troops, you will probably be left with a hellblaster and inceptor squad, maybe enough aggressors (if you go heavy on the hellblasters)
Yeah, I agree Nevelon. But of course the really great thing is that you can go back to the drawing board and respec your fortis teams again and again to fill different roles. That's honestly one of the cooler things about the Watch, in my opinion.
Do it. I was a RG player and haven't looked back. I occasionally still consider taking a detachment so I can SFTS a unit of 6 Aggressors... but other than that DW is great. Also, 5 man Intercessor units alone are still good units. It is hard to pass up the ability to protect your more expensive units though. I typically run 7-8 man teams with varying numbers of the special units depending on the purpose of the team.
List Suggestion A:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors and 4 Hellblasters, and 1 Aggressor each. Then drop the Aggressors with a command point, and the Inceptors naturally. This will give a lot of good, mobile Firepower.
List Suggestion B:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors, 3 Aggressors, and 2 Inceptors each. Then drop a 10 man and a 5 man unit of Hellblasters for 2 CP. This is going to be a lot more of your eggs in one basket, but it is pretty mobile, all your goodies are protected, and your intercessors are effectively T5 because of mixed unit toughness. Low on-board presence is the biggest weakness of this.
List Suggestion C:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors, 1 Aggressor, 1 Inceptor. Then just put everything else in teams by themselves. This gives you a 10 man DS Hellblaster, a 5 man DS Hellblaster, and a 6 man DS Aggressor with a 3 man Plasma Inceptor and keeps your small, mobile units flexible.
Not much different in the 3 suggestions, but then that is the beauty of DW. Keep altering things till you find something you like and that works with your meta. I have almost your exact Primaris models, except I have 3 bolter Inceptors and 3 Plasma ones. I am planning on getting more Intercessors and Hellblasters because they are just too damned good.
For all their weaknesses Hellblasters are one of the best non-FW units we have. I have 15 and need 5 more. I dropped a unit of 10 in and with only reroll to hit buff they killed a monolith in a single turn (Had to use the anti-tank round stratagem from my Librarian to finish off the last wound). So they do work.
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Aggressor Squad - 6x boltstorm gauntlets
Inceptor Squad - 3x plasma incinerator (OR 4x assault bolter- depending on whether i do the conversion)
Hellblaster Squad - 10, rapid fire
Hellblaster Squad - 10, rapid fire
The Aggressors, Captain and Librarian form a centre that the 3 fortis kill teams pivot around, clearing chaff first, then using SIA for other targets.
The Hellblasters and Inceptors deep strike for anti tank duty.
It's similar to the Ravenguard army i've been using, where the 9 aggressors SFTS for chaff and the intercessors hold objectives, but the anti tank duties fall on the plasma inceptors as the hellblasters have assault and will run and gun. I think on balance it's better
Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Yup IK suck. S8 with the +1 to wound stratagem helps though
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Yup IK suck. S8 with the +1 to wound stratagem helps though
I don't see many knights in my meta they exist but they are not the norm. I usually only play 1k tournaments so those generally have only 1 knight and it's not the one with 30+wounds. I'm confident I could handle 1 or two by shooting them until they are less effective and focusing on objectives. I use hellblasters as well as a killteam with 4 frag cannons and stormbolters/ storm shields dropped in to blast away a bunch of wounds. My aggressors and assault intercessors then run everywhere toward objectives and taking any shots of opportunity on big or small units where I can force the opponent to take more saves.
I mean... outside of Guard or maybe Custodes there isn't enough AT in the Imperium without having to sacrifice your other stuff to be able to take on a full knight list. I have 2 guys in my Meta that run 5 IKs, or they run 3 with some allies. DW just can't handle that at all so I try to focus on what I can, and use tactics/objective placements to help in those bad situations.
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
I've killed knights with my two fortis hellblaster kill teams. Being able to pump out up to 20 2DMG shots on target can ruin a knight's day. The fact that you can deepstrike them turn 1 to prevent the knight from hiding around tall terrain is bonus money. If I'm really lucky, it's a 3 or 4 knight list and I can make LOW my mission tactic, re-rolling 1s on to-hit and wound rolls. If it's big I'll even splurge on +1 to my wound rolls just to screw over a castellean.
I run two forms of AT in my list - the hellblasters teams take down the biggest threats while a single contemptor dread teleports in front of the biggest melee threat and either kills it outright or ties it up. A fellow DeathWatch player drops three squads in one go with a jump captain - he just points at the biggest thing and erases it, then goes down the line, killing the next biggest target and so forth.
Hellblasters aren't 'sexy' in regards to having a single statline that screams 'kill in one shot' like some of the big tanks/dread options, but you can get a whole fortis kill team with it's 20 wounds, ability to teleport, bad dice mitigration (via multiple shots), Watch Captain compatibility, cover save and Mission Tactic. They are solid workhorses and are probably hands-down the best infantry model in the Space Marine codex.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
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