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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
20 attacks from the whole unit isn't scary at all. Buffed, 'zerkers get 15 attacks per model on the charge, 12 when receiving the charge. Hence why charging the berzerkers takes away so much of their power. If I charge, not only are their initial casualties factored in before they get to hit me, taking away 12 attacks per model killed, but they also outright lose 30 attacks off the entire squad. Their lethality absolutely plummets. In addition, because they take 3 activations, they only get 4 per model on an CP Interrupt, and only get 4 per model on their turn before I get to hit. If you don't have Skarbrand, you lose another 3 attacks per model.

I'd say their ability to still through out a bucket of hits after taking major casualties, without buffs and not charging is pretty scary.

Without Skarbrand, I kill 6, you strike back with 4 for 39 attacks for 3 wounds [after accounting for DttFE], killing a Gemini and wounding the other. On your turn, you hit with 12, killing my other Gemini, and then I kill 4 with Celestine, resulting in squad wiped. If you're not morale-proof, you also lose about 1-2 on average from battleshock, further reducing your output on your turn.

Are you running these Berzerkers base with just a chainsaw? No, no, no: Power Fist + Chainsword on the champ and Chainaxe + Chainsword on the rest, this does about 8 wounds to you in your turn (not taking into account DttFE) which I believe leaves you with no Gemini and Celestine on 3 wounds?

With Skarbrand nearby, I kill 7, Your remaining 3, however, still get 3 wounds in, achieving the same effect. If you're using Chainaxes for 2 attacks and Chainswords for 2 attacks, this increases to 4. Skarbrand makes you morale proof, and then you hit on your turn to stick a wound on me before I wipe you out.

Again, think you have the wrong Zerker set up: 3 with Skarbrand will do 9 wounds which is the Gemini gone again and Celestine down to 2 wounds.

Skarbrand himself, in the fight, can turn the tide, because he's big and scary, but he can fight Celestine on his own without help from Berzerkers. But he's also big, and I'd be a dunce not to blow him up on turn 1, because he's too big to summon, too big to hide, and too big to ride a transport, and not tough enough to survive a stack of Meltaguns.

Aye, Skarbrand won't last long but you want him for his aura not his combat capabilities.

I've seen the World Eaters in action, and they're definitely a force to be reckoned with, but the do lose a lot of you get the charge, and it starts to fall apart if Skarbrand dies. So don't be the one to take the World Eaters' charge, charge them first, it take a lot away from them. Another thing to keep in mind is the option to charge depleted 'zerker squads with tanks. It takes about 100 Chainaxe attacks, or 160 Chainsword attacks, to wreck a tank, and a full squad of Berzerkers outputs 123 attacks when it receives the charge, so if you take out a few of them, an expendable tank can safely go into battle with them and tie them up, preventing them from charging units that are fragile and have real firepower, like Dominions, until the enemy turn. Skarbrand makes this dangerous, though, since the tank must be perfectly calibrated to die during the World Eaters' turn so the Berzerkers can be shot and obliterated.

I've played 13 games of 8th now using my WE and my Berzerkers have been charged 3 times in all of those games and each of the charges against them were made after they had wiped 2 or more units, I don't let people get the charge on me before I've already done my damage.

However, when someone says "melee" I think "Genestealers". Genestealers put Berzerkers to shame, and require no external buffs from something big and vulnerable like Skarbrand to perform. 20 'stealers outputs 4 attacks per model at AP-1, and for 2 points less per model than Berzerkers they naturally get deep-strike and re-rolls on the charge, to ensure that they'll make it in and make it in at full strength, and they'll always be the ones charging. Getting charged really hurts Berzerkers ability, but because Genestealers start in Cult Ambush, they don't have the deal with that.

And because Zerkers start in transports they don't have to deal with it. Also, for 3 points more you get Zerkers who have 8 attacks on the charge or now you can make them AL and you get the genestealer ambush ability but drop to 6 attacks each, both of these Zerker units have -1AP attacks and all at higher strength than the Genestealers' attacks.

Keep in mind the following important consideration: if your unit doesn't kill me on my turn, you can't charge a different unit on yours. Hence why Skarbrand is so important, because as long as he's alive, I can't end the combat on my terms and obliterate you, I have to stay in until my unit dies, which, if you're doing it right, will happen on one of my turns.

Also, I haven't seen Berzerkers with Powerfists, and that strikes me as inefficient. Berzerkers aren't trying to attack tanks, and if they have to, they usually can destroy it without the help of a Powerfist. I think power axes, swords, or claws would all be better, with the maul being a useful consideration against my armies.

And, while Berzerkers' ability to kill Celestine is related to how Sisters handle CQC armies, the comparing of Berzerkers to Celestine is fairly pointless measuring [a contest which I, by default, lose ].

The important aspect is that, against CQC armies that start on the board, we can engage them on our terms thanks to our longer charge-threat range, and charge them with units they aren't well optimized to kill that will tarpit them until our next turn, thus preventing them from charging our more fragile but more powerful Dominion units.

Genestealers put Berzerkers to shame against big targets with solid saves.

Berzerkers are *the* tool for fighting hordes.

I actually faced both of these in my last tourney. In truth both are deadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Played in an ITC tournament this weekend.

Came in third, if only i had 1 more point, i would have probably tied for second, because my major defeat was *almost* a minor defeat, and was at the hands of the tournament winner (undefeated).

Grey Knights vs Chaos Space Marines - Grey Knights; Major Victory
Grey Knights vs Genestealer Cult - Grey Knights; Major Victory
Grey Knights vs Officio Assassinorum; Major Defeat

I will throw out there that the character targeting rules seem a bit wonky. If you're closer to something locked in combat, than a character, guess what, you can't shoot at the character, even though there's no legal target closer to you, as you can't fire into combat. It's an awful rule that isn't intuitive in the least bit.

Yeah, character spam is hilarious. My friend brought a gimmick librarian army to fight my 3 baneblades - it was something like 40 librarians vs 3 baneblades. Easy win right?

Well, I am only allowed to target 3 a turn, but they can smite all day.

Are you sure it wasn't 40 primaris psykers? Librarians are a little over 100 per. You couldn't fit that many in a list. but it's still a fun thought. I thought about bringing a brother captain and a bunch of librarians in terminator armor. Suddenly i'm smiting at a 36" range. Just try and deny the witch. lol.

And what you highlighted is the exact problem when someone has like 5 of every assassin.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Keep in mind the following important consideration: if your unit doesn't kill me on my turn, you can't charge a different unit on yours. Hence why Skarbrand is so important, because as long as he's alive, I can't end the combat on my terms and obliterate you, I have to stay in until my unit dies, which, if you're doing it right, will happen on one of my turns.

Also, I haven't seen Berzerkers with Powerfists, and that strikes me as inefficient. Berzerkers aren't trying to attack tanks, and if they have to, they usually can destroy it without the help of a Powerfist. I think power axes, swords, or claws would all be better, with the maul being a useful consideration against my armies.

And, while Berzerkers' ability to kill Celestine is related to how Sisters handle CQC armies, the comparing of Berzerkers to Celestine is fairly pointless measuring [a contest which I, by default, lose ].

The important aspect is that, against CQC armies that start on the board, we can engage them on our terms thanks to our longer charge-threat range, and charge them with units they aren't well optimized to kill that will tarpit them until our next turn, thus preventing them from charging our more fragile but more powerful Dominion units.

I don't feel like we're going to meet an agreement on this and unless I fly to America to throw down the gaunlet I doubt we're going to be able to resolve this: you think you can charge me before I can and stop me in my tracks, I think I could hit you hard and cripple most of your big units before you can do enough damage to me.

There's also the fact that I have no experience with SoB players and, from what you've said, you've had no experience with a competitive WE player (no offence to your local group but they don't sound like they're making the best use out of Zerkers).

To be 100% honest Berzerkers would not kill Celestine unless the person controlling her lets you. Remember, she's got a 24" move, and a 2+/4++ statline.

I run Celestine in my list, she wrecks virtually everything, including *every* single kind of MEQ. Berzerkers are hot but not against mobile targets.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Keep in mind the following important consideration: if your unit doesn't kill me on my turn, you can't charge a different unit on yours. Hence why Skarbrand is so important, because as long as he's alive, I can't end the combat on my terms and obliterate you, I have to stay in until my unit dies, which, if you're doing it right, will happen on one of my turns.

Also, I haven't seen Berzerkers with Powerfists, and that strikes me as inefficient. Berzerkers aren't trying to attack tanks, and if they have to, they usually can destroy it without the help of a Powerfist. I think power axes, swords, or claws would all be better, with the maul being a useful consideration against my armies.

And, while Berzerkers' ability to kill Celestine is related to how Sisters handle CQC armies, the comparing of Berzerkers to Celestine is fairly pointless measuring [a contest which I, by default, lose ].

The important aspect is that, against CQC armies that start on the board, we can engage them on our terms thanks to our longer charge-threat range, and charge them with units they aren't well optimized to kill that will tarpit them until our next turn, thus preventing them from charging our more fragile but more powerful Dominion units.

I don't feel like we're going to meet an agreement on this and unless I fly to America to throw down the gaunlet I doubt we're going to be able to resolve this: you think you can charge me before I can and stop me in my tracks, I think I could hit you hard and cripple most of your big units before you can do enough damage to me.

There's also the fact that I have no experience with SoB players and, from what you've said, you've had no experience with a competitive WE player (no offence to your local group but they don't sound like they're making the best use out of Zerkers).

They're not. My local group is pretty bad. Also, there's very few World Eaters and a lot of Thousand Sons.

But, because I'm faster, I control the engagement range. Exception is Genestealers.

Tack on another SoB victory, this time against Salamanders in a great big gun line. I'm currently 8-0 with the ladies and 1-0 with Grey Knights. Hopefully between Inquisitor Lord Katherine and I we're really stacking the deck for the Sisters of Battle Hype Train. If anybody is interested here's the list at 2000 points. (Battalion and Spearhead)
Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
Canoness w/ Eviscerator and Combi Melta
Canoness w/ power maul
Ministorum Priest w/ Combi Flamer
Imagifier
BSS x 10 w/ Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Power Sword
BSS x 8 w/ Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Power Axe
BSS x 5 w/ Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Seraphim x 8 w/ 4 Inferno pistols
Dominions x 5 w/ 5 meltaguns
Dominions x 5 w/ 5 meltaguns
Retributors x 8 w/ 4 Heavy Bolters
Exorcist
Exorcist
Rhino
Immolator w/flamers
Immolator w/flamers
Immolator w/flamers

This list would be way nastier if I dropped the BSS and took all Dominions and Seraphim but I like my gaming group too much for that...

IandI wrote:
Hopefully between Inquisitor Lord Katherine and I we're really stacking the deck for the Sisters of Battle Hype Train.

so... the rest of us SoB players aren't contributing...?

 captain bloody fists wrote:

IandI wrote:
Hopefully between Inquisitor Lord Katherine and I we're really stacking the deck for the Sisters of Battle Hype Train.

so... the rest of us SoB players aren't contributing...?

There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

Tau+IG Vs SM (salamander) > SM win.

(Salamander are way too strong !)

IandI wrote:

That sounds about right, the last update showed 60 games reported so that's probably 6-10 of us or so. And hey, I've got nothing but love for my fellow heresy purgers!!!

I do have one concern though, if somebody from GW sees us all doing well they'll probably gut us in the next update...

QUICK, EVERYBODY START LOSING SOME GAMES BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

as i said in another comment. i'm waiting for the other foot to drop and for us to get a HUGE nerf.

also Heresy purgers, i like it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

So far i'm 5 wins 2 losses. damn shame about the two losses...

So far I'm 2/0 with 8th edition sisters, but I still play my superheavy tank company now and again, so most of my games have decidedly been without SOB.

I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k. It's true for me, I've been enjoying plastic crack since about 1997 and have played roughly 600 or 700 (I figure 30-40 games a year for 20 years...) games of 40k plus a handful of tournaments. I've got 4 other armies but at least 150 or so of those games were with the ladies.

What's the experience level of the rest of the "Heresy Purgers"?

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k. It's true for me, I've been enjoying plastic crack since about 1997 and have played roughly 600 or 700 (I figure 30-40 games a year for 20 years...) games of 40k plus a handful of tournaments. I've got 4 other armies but at least 150 or so of those games were with the ladies.

What's the experience level of the rest of the "Heresy Purgers"?

Been playing since the end of 2nd (though didn't really learn the game till 3rd, so take it with a grain of salt; I played like 4 games of 2nd and I was like 9 at the time, so it went predictably off the rails).

Been playing sisters themselves since mid-7th, probably?

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k.

No disrespect to anyone but that's just arrogance talking. Sisters are solid.

Are veteran Ork players not as good as veteran Sisters players? Or does that have to do with one armies power level versus the other?

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k. It's true for me, I've been enjoying plastic crack since about 1997 and have played roughly 600 or 700 (I figure 30-40 games a year for 20 years...) games of 40k plus a handful of tournaments. I've got 4 other armies but at least 150 or so of those games were with the ladies.

What's the experience level of the rest of the "Heresy Purgers"?

Been playing 40k since about 1995. Sisters since early 2000s? I was playing them with the Witch Hunter codex and was still living at home, which means it was definitely about 15 years ago. I distinctly remember a friend got me a box of Seraphim for my birthday at my parents house.

Just found this post so I can add in. (Seems like a fun statistics to keep up with)

I've had 3 games of 8th so far all Emperor's Children, all losses >.>. But they were all close at least!

Game 1 - it was a team game, Tau/Nids/EC vs DA/IG/Orks (All from Index). My side with the EC lost.

Game 2 - Kondor week 2 - EC (Index) vs IG. IG won.

Game 3 - Kondor week 3 - EC (Codex) vs BA. BA won.
** This game was crazy because I lost track of how many times I rolled a 1 on my d3 damage from Blastmasters against all termies and primaris marines! **

I'll be sticking with my EC for the rest of the Kondor campaign because they are painted.

 Marmatag wrote:

IandI wrote:
I'm curious, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the SoB are doing better than average because most of the people playing them are veterans of 40k.

No disrespect to anyone but that's just arrogance talking. Sisters are solid.

Are veteran Ork players not as good as veteran Sisters players? Or does that have to do with one armies power level versus the other?

Can't be bothered with the truth or otherwise of the quoted statement, but what has the quoted statement got to do with how good veteran ork players are?

The quote was suggesting that MOST sisters players are veterans, not that veteran sisters players are better then veteran ork (or any other) players. It's more about how many (proportionally) there is and not how good they are compared to each other.

To explain that line of reasoning more clearly for you - If all sisters players had been playing for 20+ years and were all veteran players with plenty of experience, and this was not true of those with other armies then it may not matter how awesome the other veteran players are, the average could expected to be lower for that army due to the not so veteran players pulling down the average.

By all means disagree with the statement, and it may be due to power levels etc.

So the suggested line of logic allows that veteran ork players may in fact be better than the veteran sisters players, or not.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

Oddly enough, I'm not contributing. My sisters are shelved until I can get plastics. Naturally this is a long wait; c'est la vie.

Sisters have a very high ITC ranking.

It stands to reason that top-tier factions would have a higher win percentage, regardless of the number of veteran players.

You are confusing correlation and causation.

puree wrote:

To explain that line of reasoning more clearly for you

Nope, no arrogance here.

 Melissia wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
There are at least 5 of us contributing, I think. It's good to see all of us doing well.

Oddly enough, I'm not contributing. My sisters are shelved until I can get plastics. Naturally this is a long wait; c'est la vie.

Mfw people think plastic SoB will come with the new codex

 Marmatag wrote:
Played in an ITC tournament this weekend.

Came in third, if only i had 1 more point, i would have probably tied for second, because my major defeat was *almost* a minor defeat, and was at the hands of the tournament winner (undefeated).

Grey Knights vs Chaos Space Marines - Grey Knights; Major Victory
Grey Knights vs Genestealer Cult - Grey Knights; Major Victory
Grey Knights vs Officio Assassinorum; Major Defeat

I will throw out there that the character targeting rules seem a bit wonky. If you're closer to something locked in combat, than a character, guess what, you can't shoot at the character, even though there's no legal target closer to you, as you can't fire into combat. It's an awful rule that isn't intuitive in the least bit.

Is that how that works?

*scurries rulebook*

Huh. We'll probably keep playing it as 'enemy units in close combat do not count when determining the closest unit when targeting characters'.

Certainly wonky and should be fixed.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Mfw people think plastic SoB will come with the new codex

I don't.

In fact, I started a BA army because I figure it's gonna be a long wait so I might as well try something new. And since Sanguinius Died For Your Sins, I'll support his sons.

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Mfw people think plastic SoB will come with the new codex

I don't.

In fact, I started a BA army because I figure it's gonna be a long wait so I might as well try something new. And since Sanguinius Died For Your Sins, I'll support his sons.

Not necessarily you, just people.

Also, are you sure you woudn't want to try some Heresy? We've got cookies!

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also, are you sure you woudn't want to try some Heresy? We've got cookies!

No, but I'll help you die for your sins

It would be nice to see plastic sisters, ministorum, and for a lot of chaos stuff that's finecast.

Finecast and metal are huge turn offs for me when buying anything.

 Melissia wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also, are you sure you woudn't want to try some Heresy? We've got cookies!

No, but I'll help you die for your sins

But I have to get the cookies out of the oven before they burn or Abby will be cross!

My weekend update:

Custodes VS. Gray Knights (Codex) -Custodes win
Custodes VS. Blood Angels (Index) -Custodes win

7-0 so far. My FLGS hasn't adapted to the goldentide yet. Once they do, I suspect I'll eat some losses.

SoB vs Tzeentch Daemons: SoB win
Tzeentch Daemons vs Grey Knights (Codex): Tzeentch Daemons win
Grey Knights (Codex) vs AM: AM win