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I guess it might be fairer to say the GC's units that had recently been nerfed or underperformed got wrecked, while the units that we thought would be good remain so.
It's very hard to see that Aberrants will get much benefit from the FAQ that will make them worth the points they are now, given they were overpointed to being useless already by the last pass. Meanwhile Ridge Runners have got a lot better, and barely went up at all. Acolytes with hand flamers went up a bit, but were at least a solid choice and haven't gone up so much in the grand scheme of things.
Metamorphs were traditionally useless and got reduced in points last time to be actually worthwhile, but have reverted back to being useless for the most part.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Presumably some models are available at a discount because they're narratively common or make up the bulk of the army; and similarly other units pay a premium to ensure relative scarcity.
Cultists are more expensive than guardsmen because otherwise you don't see Chaos Space Marine infantry in Heretic Astartes armies – and in turn the CSM infantry get a minor discount in comparison with Imperial Space Marines.
Building armies that are at odds with GW's narrative is possible, but you'll pay a premium for it.
Thescotsman's all-grot army is a good example. It's not how ork armies appear in the fiction/background, so there's an in-game incentive against it.
For sake of gw developers i hope they aren't stupid enough to point stuff like that
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote: Given FW thus far didnt get Legend-rules, I would think it's more likely that Chaplain Dreads, Elysians and Co. get squatted old-school.
Legends has been thing for units whose index got replaced by proper book. Fw is still in index. Logical point to put stuff to legends is when index gets replaced like rest of legends
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 14:38:24
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Presumably some models are available at a discount because they're narratively common or make up the bulk of the army; and similarly other units pay a premium to ensure relative scarcity.
Cultists are more expensive than guardsmen because otherwise you don't see Chaos Space Marine infantry in Heretic Astartes armies – and in turn the CSM infantry get a minor discount in comparison with Imperial Space Marines.
Building armies that are at odds with GW's narrative is possible, but you'll pay a premium for it.
Thescotsman's all-grot army is a good example. It's not how ork armies appear in the fiction/background, so there's an in-game incentive against it.
You still wont see chaos space marines in a chaos space marine army, at 6pts cultists are still better. They finally get a mintor discount over normal marines because for the first time in nearly 20 years GW realized they don't have ATSKNF. The fact you will only see cultists still is a testiment to how utterly terrible CSM are, not how good cultists are. They are now basically a 180pt 3x unit tax for a batallion if you want the CP refunded.
Barking up the wrong tree with this explanation. If this was ever their intention they'd include a rule like 'you cannon include more cultists than csm units', instead of derp 6pts a model derp 5pt grots'
The truth is, cultists, grots and brim horrors are a thorn in their side for the kinda edition they want this to be, an inconvenient group of units they'd rather not be there anymore. Nice model count, not too many, small units, fast paced game in a shorter time is their vision for 9th. So they basically just chucked them under the bus because its impossible to give them a place in that sort of vision without 1. breaking the vision and allowing loads of them 2. costing everything else even more expensive which leads to less models and 1. anyway. Their only option was to nerf them
IG get a pass because Imperium
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 14:54:45
Looking through more and more of the points, coupled with the rules changes, overall I'm increasingly just not impressed by what I'm seeing. The rules changes for most competitive and pickup play basically amount to a big Errata update, while the points changes basically just move the general army size back to early 8E and rejigger the spread a bit, with without any sort of consistency or clarity, with lots of negative changes to units and weapons that didn't need them.
I guess we'll see how things shape up, I could be completely wrong on this, but a lot of what I'm seeing doesn't appear to follow much rhyme or reason, with a lot of existing issues seemingly only made worse.
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they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
Oh man, you're right Daed! Especially if they're backed up by those OP Squigbuggies. That probably even leaves points for a Stompa! I know what Nanavati's going to bring to the next LVO, boy howdy.
I dunno, snakebites are pretty terrible so it's unlikely you'd want your entire army being that. Meaning you'd probably soup and Orks are quite possibly the most CP starved army in the game so that's a real cost. In addition, making your grots fearless is coming from your warlord trait and Orks don't have a way of getting extra warlord traits so your warlord would have babysit 30 grots all game to make them fearless?
That sounds like a very reasonable trade-off to me.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Given FW thus far didnt get Legend-rules, I would think it's more likely that Chaplain Dreads, Elysians and Co. get squatted old-school.
More then likely legends get updated with a new edition
You are referring to leaks Of points not the release still..
Expect a lot of FAQs, errata and updated legends which is basically just taking old datasheets and shoving them sans points into a pdf file never to be updated again.
they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
Oh man, you're right Daed! Especially if they're backed up by those OP Squigbuggies. That probably even leaves points for a Stompa! I know what Nanavati's going to bring to the next LVO, boy howdy.
Hey! Now you're getting it! I'm so proud of youuuuu!
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
You... don't actually know the rules for grots, do you?
they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
Oh man, you're right Daed! Especially if they're backed up by those OP Squigbuggies. That probably even leaves points for a Stompa! I know what Nanavati's going to bring to the next LVO, boy howdy.
Hey! Now you're getting it! I'm so proud of youuuuu!
Alrighty, let's get serious then. Got any rebuttal to the other guy telling you why 30 fearless grots is actually pretty fething bad?
You're a sharp guy, you drop the white knight schtick sometimes. Don't you think this balance pass is worthy of salt? GW made incremental fixes throughout 8th only to throw it all away at the start of 9th. It's honestly astounding.
PiñaColada wrote: I dunno, snakebites are pretty terrible so it's unlikely you'd want your entire army being that. Meaning you'd probably soup and Orks are quite possibly the most CP starved army in the game so that's a real cost. In addition, making your grots fearless is coming from your warlord trait and Orks don't have a way of getting extra warlord traits so your warlord would have babysit 30 grots all game to make them fearless?
That sounds like a very reasonable trade-off to me.
Deathskulls SSAG are probably on their way out. There is no more rerolling the strength. CP is lower as well.
Snakebitez get +1 to wound from the whole army at a big target over Deathskulls getting reroll wounds for 1 unit. There's a 5++ in melee now on top of 6+++ making multi-wound melee focused units pretty interesting. Buggies shooting into combat (skrapjet) with a 5++/6+++? I dunno. Sounds alright to me. My buddy won't leave the Deathskulls rerolls behind though - I know that much.
they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
So its not 90pts... because you need to buy the character, use up the warlord trait and keep him near them.... Framing it as some sort of 'they did it to stop them being OP' because of one specific set of circumstances that probably would not 'sink' anything is imo... disingenuous.
They just don't want big units or units that dont do anything. Its fine, we'll have a few years of elite armies mainly 50% primaris vs primarsis. I'm shelfing my ork army for a while... guess a lot of folks will too. We can all play each other with marines ... funs
they spent years on this, playtested it all over the world, with much feedback...
Sorry, but 90 points for 30 morale immune snakebite grots would have sunk the edition real fast. You guys bitch all you want, but you should probably play some games first.
When losing 3 digit greenskins in a turn isn't that tough before morale...not really. And that includes t4 6++ orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:28:29
You've been almost bluntly told by GW that you shouldn't use skew lists and the game is designed for more balanced lists across the board for years, decades even.
Don't get salty now they have actually pushed to ensure that.
If grots were designed to be a full army, they'd have their own codex.
Time to suck it up and stop whinging and start playing the game in the way its intended, the time of unfluffy spam and skew is over.
You want ultra competitive specificity? Go play sports guys, this isn't that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:32:27
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Alrighty, let's get serious then. Got any rebuttal to the other guy telling you why 30 fearless grots is actually pretty fething bad?
You're a sharp guy, you drop the white knight schtick sometimes. Don't you think this balance pass is worthy of salt? GW made incremental fixes throughout 8th only to throw it all away at the start of 9th. It's honestly astounding.
What people perceive as white knighting is a pretty deliberate effort to take in all the information and process it in context.
In a broader context I can't tell you how everything will come together. A lot of stuff went up. Things that we valued before work differently now. People will be emotional about the units they like and won't review them in relation to how the game works now.
The game will surely not be perfectly balanced and that's fine (to me). What matters is if there is more (a lot more) good than bad. I doubt we'll see any silly FAQ stuff for melta or anything else. People will be disappointed there.
So its not 90pts... because you need to buy the character, use up the warlord trait and keep him near them.... Framing it as some sort of 'they did it to stop them being OP' because of one specific set of circumstances that probably would not 'sink' anything is imo... disingenuous.
They just don't want big units or units that dont do anything. Its fine, we'll have a few years of elite armies mainly 50% primaris vs primarsis. I'm shelfing my ork army for a while... guess a lot of folks will too. We can all play each other with marines ... funs
12" is a pretty big bubble and he doesn't need to be a slouch WL. There's more than just that to the picture, but I won't be able to convince people regardless. You're just going to have to play it out and see if you truly hate it or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:33:25
PiñaColada wrote: I dunno, snakebites are pretty terrible so it's unlikely you'd want your entire army being that. Meaning you'd probably soup and Orks are quite possibly the most CP starved army in the game so that's a real cost. In addition, making your grots fearless is coming from your warlord trait and Orks don't have a way of getting extra warlord traits so your warlord would have babysit 30 grots all game to make them fearless?
That sounds like a very reasonable trade-off to me.
Deathskulls SSAG are probably on their way out. There is no more rerolling the strength. CP is lower as well.
Snakebitez get +1 to wound from the whole army at a big target over Deathskulls getting reroll wounds for 1 unit. There's a 5++ in melee now on top of 6+++ making multi-wound melee focused units pretty interesting. Buggies shooting into combat (skrapjet) with a 5++/6+++? I dunno. Sounds alright to me. My buddy won't leave the Deathskulls rerolls behind though - I know that much.
If anything but deffskulls reign supreme for Orks barring any really odd day 1 FAQ and before their new codex I'd be shocked. Army wide 6++ is great when the entire army is made of wet paper, crazy good rerolls and obsec on any infantry. Ork elite infantry actually made out okay with point bumps so they'll be more present I reckon. Also, your warlord dying almost never matters anymore so the warlord trait probably isn't going on a SSAG but rather you'll just upgrade your biggest boss warlord from a missile to a full-blown ICBM.
Orks are going mono-kultur IMO and deffskulls just gives you overall most bang for your teef, by far IMO
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:35:00
Alrighty, let's get serious then. Got any rebuttal to the other guy telling you why 30 fearless grots is actually pretty fething bad?
You're a sharp guy, you drop the white knight schtick sometimes. Don't you think this balance pass is worthy of salt? GW made incremental fixes throughout 8th only to throw it all away at the start of 9th. It's honestly astounding.
What people perceive as white knighting is a pretty deliberate effort to take in all the information and process it in context.
In a broader context I can't tell you how everything will come together. A lot of stuff went up. Things that we valued before work differently now. People will be emotional about the units they like and won't review them in relation to how the game works now.
The game will surely not be perfectly balanced and that's fine (to me). What matters is if there is more (a lot more) good than bad. I doubt we'll see any silly FAQ stuff for melta or anything else. People will be disappointed there.
Well, I try and do the same too. It's why I was pretty pumped (and still am pumped) about the fundamental 9th ed rules. And that's the harder part -- maybe they need to come back and do a couple fixes for hordes but they did improve on the 8th ruleset. Which is why completely dropping the ball on points makes this even more painful. You don't even have to look at the game as a whole, just within a faction. Especially since you can look within the Marines points drops and see care and attention placed to nerfs AND BUFFS. Then I look at Nids or Eldar or Orks or Chaos and see none of that. We know the core rules, we know Warp Talons didn't get anything to make them deserving of an 8 point hike. And yeah, hopefully that's a typo. But I could give you about 20 other examples of that sort of crap and I've known these points for like 3 hours now. There's just not a lot to hang your hat on here.
I haven't rebuilt my lists yet, but with Eldar as my primary army, I was initially worried, but I really like how most of my weapons are now built into the model cost. It looks like if a unit has identical weaponry (like Eldar Rangers all having long rifles and pistols), they were dropped to 0 and then increased the model points. Rangers, for instance, went from 60 pts. to 75 all-in.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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Daedalus81 wrote: What people perceive as white knighting is a pretty deliberate effort to take in all the information and process it in context.
Oh pull the other one. For weeks now you've been on the "wait for the rules!" bandwagon, even as we got more and more and more stuff revealed. Even after the full rulebook leak. And now here we are, with all the points, what some might call the final piece of the puzzle, and you're still acting like everything is fine and nothing is broken.
We've seen a number of reviews for these points, and so many of them are saying that they feel utterly random/inconsistent, and seem to reverse some of the positive changes from 8th. But we need more context, somehow?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:44:27
Well, I try and do the same too. It's why I was pretty pumped (and still am pumped) about the fundamental 9th ed rules. And that's the harder part -- maybe they need to come back and do a couple fixes for hordes but they did improve on the 8th ruleset. Which is why completely dropping the ball on points makes this even more painful. You don't even have to look at the game as a whole, just within a faction. Especially since you can look within the Marines points drops and see care and attention placed to nerfs AND BUFFS. Then I look at Nids or Eldar or Orks or Chaos and see none of that. We know the core rules, we know Warp Talons didn't get anything to make them deserving of an 8 point hike. And yeah, hopefully that's a typo. But I could give you about 20 other examples of that sort of crap and I've known these points for like 3 hours now. There's just not a lot to hang your hat on here.
Yes, I shall wait and see. I hope the army wides all give a good perspective and special exemptions/bonuses a la Tau. But it does look like my SM army got the 'You thought you were killy before? Now try these units!!!' Whilst my Ork army got the 'You liked picking up your dead models before???? Now pick up even more units per turn!!!'
Have we got the pts of those super broken new Melta rifle Marines?
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Alrighty, let's get serious then. Got any rebuttal to the other guy telling you why 30 fearless grots is actually pretty fething bad?
You're a sharp guy, you drop the white knight schtick sometimes. Don't you think this balance pass is worthy of salt? GW made incremental fixes throughout 8th only to throw it all away at the start of 9th. It's honestly astounding.
What people perceive as white knighting is a pretty deliberate effort to take in all the information and process it in context.
In a broader context I can't tell you how everything will come together. A lot of stuff went up. Things that we valued before work differently now. People will be emotional about the units they like and won't review them in relation to how the game works now.
The game will surely not be perfectly balanced and that's fine (to me). What matters is if there is more (a lot more) good than bad. I doubt we'll see any silly FAQ stuff for melta or anything else. People will be disappointed there.
So its not 90pts... because you need to buy the character, use up the warlord trait and keep him near them.... Framing it as some sort of 'they did it to stop them being OP' because of one specific set of circumstances that probably would not 'sink' anything is imo... disingenuous.
They just don't want big units or units that dont do anything. Its fine, we'll have a few years of elite armies mainly 50% primaris vs primarsis. I'm shelfing my ork army for a while... guess a lot of folks will too. We can all play each other with marines ... funs
12" is a pretty big bubble and he doesn't need to be a slouch WL. There's more than just that to the picture, but I won't be able to convince people regardless. You're just going to have to play it out and see if you truly hate it or not.
Ok so if it would 'sink the edition'
Explain to me how it wont still sink the edition if i have 90 fearless grots @ 450pts compared to 90 fearless grots @270pts a difference of 180pts
Does that 180pts now mean the edition wont be sinked? because 180pts means 90 fearless grots sinking the edition's ability will be magically gone? 180pts is loosing a unit on the first turn. Are you saying 9th ed it pot luck first turn who goes first wins when you are running the ship sinking fearless grot horde
perhaps, more likely they would not sink anything at 3pts a model
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 15:56:40
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
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