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I just read over at the Warstore forums GW has "possibly" allowed stores to sell online again.  Anyone have information on this?

No, but it almost sounds like, dare I say, a step in the right direction?

CCG armory has been doing so (at a discount of 20%) for several months now, and I've been wondering how they've gotten away with it.

Neil never stopped selling them, though he didn't POST them on his website.

And I don't think SciFiGenre ever took them down at all...

Last I heard, they weren't changing their policies, but who knows. I'm sure Neil wishes they would change their policy, or it might just be his lawyers opinion has changed. Who knows.

Ah, but the old policy wasn't you couldn't sell GW product, but that you couldn't sell it via an automatied online transaction system ("shopping cart"). That is, when ordering from Neil at The War Store, I would always have to call during his business hours to place an order if said order contained any GW products, while if not, I could just plug away online 24/7.

As far as if this is true or not, I think the damage has long since been done with most online retailers very, very wary of selling GW product online after that icy burn they got last time. It's the step in the right direction, but GW is going to have to work very, very hard to regain the trust of the people they burned with that lame policy.

Warweb and BW bits are also selling on line (cart and all) at 20% off.

 

http://www.warweb.com/miniatures-games-workshop-c-70_1557.html

At least WarWeb has an existing clientèle that was already supporting it prior to adding GW product. They're a pretty darn good company too, having bought a many Battle Honors, Quality Castings, and Command Decision figures from them, amongst other things.

AFAIK, GW sells to reseller with 40% rebate (it means that your LGS purchases blisters at $6.00 when they are sold $9.99). Around Y2K it allowed successful internet resellers to offer up to 35% rebate, living on the 5% leftover margin and high volumes.

Years ago, GW killed this process while asking every retailer 1) to have a B&M store and not to be website only 2) to provide their own pictures on a website, if any, instead of GW 'eavy metal ones 3) to offer no more than 20% off in any circumstances. Non-compliance to this policy would just result in cancellation of miniature shipments from GW.

Since then, many web sellers are plaing with fire regarding those limits. In order to gain market share, some web sites offer extra member discounts or discounted shipping and such to reach a 25% rebate. I'm sure that GW would like to shut down those business, if only they could, to have net orders processed through GW website only. But tracking the actual website owner can prove difficult. If a B&M store is only a façade for a massive 'net retailer offering over the top discounts (regarding GW policies) I think finding the offender might be troublesome.

Some reasons for that policy were to help support independent game stores. Independent stores have been dropping off at a pretty scary rate for the past 5 years, ones that carry GW and ones that don't. A lot of their competition is from internet discounting. Thus the criteria to have a B and M storefront, not just a website, and limiting discounts.

Well the last FLGS I had aroudn here (the only one I ever knew accually) is a bit of a drive and is in a BAD neighborhood...as in get raped up the arse by a gun and left for pwnt type of neighborhood...

I feel your pain infantry man. If the local (which hasn't bought anything new mini wise in 18 years) closes down, i'm set to have to go to ghetto ville.

Chuck

I think that's fairly genericizing that situation.  There are a ton of reasons for "brick and mortar" failures, which probably include:

- more people thinking they can make a career out of running a game store, but not being good at it (bad business model, etc)
- more stores per capita being out there, and causing previously open "poorly run" stores being chased out by new "well run" stores; there is a finite market for gaming--a populace can't support an infinite number of game stores, so the weak are going to fail
- more people buying products online due to discounting, convenience, lack of B&M stock availability, etc.

I'm sure there are even more reasons--the point is, I don't think GW's intent was to save B&M independents by shutting down online-only discounters.  I would definitely think that their "GW Stores in every city" business model would, on its own, counteract any success they had by shutting down online discounters.

Three of the local stores here (the only stores by the way) all closed down due to bad management. One of them was a thief ( the guy took orders for stuff prepaid until the day he closed his doors. A pox on that moron *CoughMattHoskingsCough*), one of them just lost interest in the business (A great guy really, a better gamer than business man) and one of them was a complete moron (Who proceeded to blame everyone who at one point worked for him that his business floundered, even though he couldnt be bothered to pick up a phone and order product, or even be bothered to restock his shelves).

The moron oddly enough, was the last to go, but he had sufficient backing from his parents to keep the place running for a couple years longer than it should have originally, all the while selling less than $30 a month in product in a high traffic, high rent area.

There is a strong community here, but are scattered due to the lack of trust in the local shops closing.

Posted By stormtitan on 11/08/2006 12:23 PM
...the point is, I don't think GW's intent was to save B&M independents by shutting down online-only discounters.  I would definitely think that their "GW Stores in every city" business model would, on its own, counteract any success they had by shutting down online discounters.

Sure. GW never tried to save anything except their own profit, and since a cheaper internet store is just one click away, they had to find a way to drive more customers to their own website.

BTW, if GW sells with 40% margin to other gaming stores (including their own) they already score a 40% margin on that price. It means that a $9.99 blister is produced in-house at $2, but since my figures are a bit old (dating back to the all-metal era) they've probably done a lot better now. Through GW online store, there's not even redshirt wages. 80% pure profit. Yummy.

GW, defending B&M stores through price control and restricted internet sales? Some people are ready to swallow anything. Amazing.

Gentrificiation and rising rents have killed stores in NY and DC. 10 years ago there were 4 good gaming stores in NYC limits, now there's 2.

10 years ago there were 3 good gaming stores in the DC limits (accessible by mass transit) now none. The nearest ones are 45 minutes drive each way.

The real reason GW doesn't want people having full product catalogs and online shopping carts is because thats what their website does. They sell to retailers directly at a 45% discount, but they sell directly to people on the internet at full retail. So they almost double their money over selling it to retail. So in short they don't like people competing with them in online sales while continously raising prices on box sets.

As far as not being "allowed" to sell products online, as if it was some sort of enforceable law, thats not true at all. So long as you do not rebrand their product or attempt to discredit them for their work you can do whatever you want with their product including selling it on your website in any fashion. But on the same note Games Workshop can pick and choose who they do business with, provided they give the same deal to everyone equally. So when they find out you have an online store they can choose to stop selling to you or turn a blind eye even. But most online stores don't buy from GW anyway, they get it from other distributors and usually loose 5-10% off the top.

Hellfury, your story is strangely similar to some stores in Houston. Assuming you do live in Helena, MT its interesting that similar situations have dried up the stores there as well.

unregistered-

You manage to be right and wrong in your post. GW wants to sell their product from their website. The high number of internet retailers was screwing up search engines. When you typed in "Games Workshop" you would end up with an independent retailer and not GW's site. That's why the retailers can still "sell" but are not supposed to have product on their page.

Internet retailers were allowed to sell below 20% but would be banned from doing business with GW. They would refuse to sell that internet retailer anymore product.

The whole point of all this was supposed to be to help the B&M stores. Of course, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. The real reason was to allow for the expansion of official GW stores. Why would they want to indulge in such an expense? Impulse buying. If you get them in the store they are far more likely to buy a product they were not planning on purchasing.

Their plan did not work well. Not well at all. I am quite pleased with the prospect that the internet retailers will be allowed to market GW products however they want. Deeper internet price cuts will force GW to compete with better deals of their own.

I do so love a  free market.

ender502

The whole point of all this was supposed to be to help the B&M stores. Of course, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

And yet, it does help independent stores. Whether or not that was a reason, the main reason, or not even considered, it still cut down on the visibility of internet discounting, which helps b and m stores.

Posted By mikhaila on 11/09/2006 2:00 PM

The whole point of all this was supposed to be to help the B&M stores. Of course, if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

And yet, it does help independent stores. Whether or not that was a reason, the main reason, or not even considered, it still cut down on the visibility of internet discounting, which helps b and m stores.

You would be correct but only if GW then didn't directly introduce new competition by opening new stores in the larger markets. In England GW has been successfully sued for opening stores close to independent retailers in violation of contracts with the indies. Add to this GW's very shoddy support of many independents and what youget is a calculated attempt to squeeze out the B&M stores in favor of official GW stores.

The entire "help the B&M store" line was a lie then and it is a lie now. If GW wanted to help the B&M stores they would use them to help foster the hobby through events and specials. GW used to have the best retail support in the business. Now it is almost non-existent. You see glimmers on occasion but not nearly like it used to be.

ender502

You would be correct but only if GW then didn't directly introduce new competition by opening new stores in the larger markets. In England GW has been successfully sued for opening stores close to independent retailers in violation of contracts with the indies. Add to this GW's very shoddy support of many independents and what youget is a calculated attempt to squeeze out the B&M stores in favor of official GW stores.

The entire "help the B&M store" line was a lie then and it is a lie now. If GW wanted to help the B&M stores they would use them to help foster the hobby through events and specials. GW used to have the best retail support in the business. Now it is almost non-existent. You see glimmers on occasion but not nearly like it used to be.

ender502

Has nothing to do with England. It's only a rule in the US, from GW US. So anything GW is doing in the UK has no bearing on this thread.

GW still has the best retail support in the business, hands down. Much better than anything I get from PP, FOW, TSR, WOTC, or any other game manufacturer, hands down.   I get support for any special event, campaign, or progam that I run.

FoW/Battlefront is in 2nd, and then it's a long, long way down to 3rd place

I have no direct competition from GW stores, and in fact, when they were looking at new sites for stores in Philadelphia, they asked for my input, and wanted to make sure they didn't interfere with my shops.

I think GW's policy of only 20% has helped B&M's. There was a time here where there were no shops of anykind for gaming (much like now) and I bought alot of product online for the deep discount. Afterall, there was no local shop to patronize so it wasnt hurting anyone. Then some shops started to spring open and I asked them if they could atleast give a minor discount of atleast 5% for orders over $100. They would have none of that, so I went back to online retailers (while the 40% discounts were abound).

Now that it is only 20% It isnt worth going through online retailers unless your in a near rural area such as I am where you have no other alternative.

Believe me, I would much rather have a shop where I can game and be social than to sit at home and play with a handfull of people and get the minor discount from online. Patronzing a local business is worth paying full retail to me.

Posted By mikhaila on 11/09/2006 2:45 PM
I have no direct competition from GW stores, and in fact, when they were looking at new sites for stores in Philadelphia, they asked for my input, and wanted to make sure they didn't interfere with my shops.

I think that is the key difference there: No GW stores in your market. Everywhere I have lived that has had a GW store, the local indies have been and still are getting the shaft and it only gets worse when GW has more than one store. From surprise price hikes on pre-orders (selling at one price, but charging another, higher price), to constant mysterious "delays" in shipping orders for release day (like two weeks I heard for BfM and BfSP), amongst others. And this while ordering direct from GW.

All of the owners I've talked to with GW stores in their area would much rather deal with Alliance or other distributors than with GW. Despite the lower margin of going through a middleman like Alliance, some stores find it worth not having to put up with the ridiculous headaches of not knowing if their order is actually going to arrive, when it will arrive, if it will contain what they want, and so on so forth while a nice chunk of revenue is tied up due to excessively high minimum orders.

As I said before, your stores seem to be really well run and GW has seen fit to keep an excellent working relationship up with you. It just seems to be the exception to the rule here in the states, though the past few months has seen some changes in non-competitive markets (none which I live in currently).

gw definitely does not care about B&M stores despite their public comments to the contrary.  their predatory practices are not limited to england either.  the store that i frequent (games plus in mount prospect, IL, USA) had a huge warhammer/40k community and lots of sales.  not long after i started gaming there, a GW store (only the second in ALL of the chicagoland area so it's not like the market was saturated) opened up less than a mile from the store.   while the two were competing, the FLGS orders were consistently late and/or messed up.  luckily, the store failed as their game room was pathetic and their staff annoying (the opposite of my FLGS).  the same thing happened to a store in douglasville, georgia although their GW opposition is still in business.  their corporate policies are aimed at increasing profit for shareholders at the expense of their customers happiness.  their current retail sales and stock prices reflect this policy.  if i could pick two gaming companies to fail and be reborn in a customer friendly form, it would be palladium books and GW.

I think that is the key difference there: No GW stores in your market.

Absolutely in my market, just not competition. My shops are in the SW and W parts of Philadelphia. They have GW stores in the N, and across the river into NJ. A third store will be going in closer to me, but still over 10 miles away. Their stores also don't offer a customer anything that my stores can't provide.

They could easily put stores near me. There are two perfect spots for them, one 1 mile from one of my shops, and one in the major shopping area in the city, just 4 miles north of my shop. They passed on going into either of those two areas, upon seeing how close they were to me.

My relationship with GW may be a total abberation, (or might not, most retailers don't post on boards.),  but we've worked well together since they went direct to stores over a dozen years ago. Not that we don't have problems. I seriously think I've gone berzerk on more people in GW than any other retailer, but I also communicate with them on a regular basis, and we work through problems, and deal with them.

I honestly think you are the abberation rather than the rule when it comes to retail relations. I have been lucky enough to live in several diverse places including NYC, Long Island, Arkansas and Pittsburgh. Every retailer that dealt with GW has told me horror stories. Several no longer carry GW.

I think what GW never realized is that people buying their product (no matter what the source) is good for them. Not only is it SOME profit but it increases the hobby itself.

So, continued luck in your relationship with GW. It seems like the wave of newstore openings has crashed and is now receeding.

ender502

I will echo ender's statement.

I too have lived in many places and have seen similar if not exactly the same results.

I think there are only three places in this state that now carries GW. Heroic realms, Action cards and comics and one other I have never visited.