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As a small wargame store struggling to compete with the "big boys" i think the thing we need to concentrate on here is the people who are going to lose out, i.e the customers.

I can see several sides of the arguments that are going to appear over the next few days both pro-Ms and pro-Wayland, although i suspect any pro-MS stuff is going to be minimal given the poor communication and continued "warehouse sales" that are clearly a little less factual now.

I'm glad Wayland stepped in to help SMG, SMG are a key distributor to the gaming industry in the uk, they supply me, and they are very very good at it, in theory if Wayland were the big bad villain that some people are making out they could have waited until they could buy out SMG instead, if SMG got into issues over the debt load, and that would have actually put them in a stronger position than taking out MS.

Not quite sure how MS were allowed to run up almost 100k of debt though, i've went with a policy of always paying for our orders in advance and only selling "in stock" items, so far my customer base have found this an honest and useful approach.


Would have been interesting if MS had accepted Waylands offer and sold the wargames business to concentrate on the miniature market, perhaps that would have been the best option for everyone.

In the meantime the lesson is quite clear for ALL purchases over the internet (well at least in the UK):

Check if they actually have the goods you want in stock

Over £100 use a Credit Card

Under £100 either use a Credit Card or PayPal.

If you use PayPal and you have not received your order within 28 days give the company 7 days to either supply the goods or a refund - WITHOUT FAIL.

If this does not happen - for the ENTIRE order - open a PayPal Dispute and give the Company 14 days to deliver either the entire order or a full refund.

If they don't escalate to a claim.

Do NOT close out a PayPal dispute/claim until you have received either your goods in full or a full refund.

Do NOT listen to pleadings, bleatings, whinings or claims that the order will ship as soon as the dispute/claim is ended. STAND YOUR GROUND.

To any retailer who thinks that is harsh - rubbish.

If you advertise goods and can't ship them to me within 28 days or my money back then you frankly shouldn't be in business.

Forgive my sheer and sadly lacking knowledge here but I paid goods to MS via my creditcard (MBNA iirc), do I have a chance of a refund/money back?
I have literally no clue about this sort of thing, would it be covered under the credit cards basic insurance or should I just kiss my losses goodbye?

Either way, arrogant as it might sound, it wasnt a massive purchase for me (thank god!) but if I can get something back, any advice would be very much appreciated, thanks

Genuinely sorry to those that have huge purchases lost :(
Such gak

Thanks for your side of the statement Rich! While neither position is really proveable via internet, I find it really nice that you openly read gaming forums and participate in the discussion. I ordered some stuff at wayland some time back too and was quite happy with the service overall. Yes it was a little slow but while I was waiting for the stuff you put some promotions out in the open (free posting and something else). After one EMail of asking if I could get the coupon discounted towards my already placed order from some days/couple weeks ago (dont remember) you (or your staff) answered within a day in a positive way and recharged right away. That is the kind of customer service I really await from an internet business since there isnt a store nearby where you can get in contact with the people personally on days notice. Still I dont know if I will buy stuff via Internet soon again really. Which is exactly the point you make on your response. So in that case your arguments make a lot of sense for me at least. And since yours is the most comparable business to MG in terms of the Internet Store I can well understand you want to reduce the fallout before it gets out of hand.
As a German saying goes:
"Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende."
which loosely translates into:
"It's best to get unpleasant things over and done with."
Still one lesson I learned for certain ... CreditCards are your friend when buying via the net!

 Ratius wrote:

Forgive my sheer and sadly lacking knowledge here but I paid goods to MS via my creditcard (MBNA iirc), do I have a chance of a refund/money back?
I have literally no clue about this sort of thing, would it be covered under the credit cards basic insurance or should I just kiss my losses goodbye?

Yes, you should do. Due to the way credit cards work you should have protection in any contry and I would expect it to be the same throuout the EU as it is in the UK.

Without getting in to the complexitys the credit card company is just as responsible for dilivering the goods as the seller.

@Ratius
I cannot exactly tell you how it is handled in your country but usually all over the EU there a quite similar rulings when it comes to money transfers. You have to either contact the issueing bank of your credit card or directly the clearance company which does the actual handling with the card handlings. They will give you some kind of statement to sign which states that you have paid for goods in advance which werent delivered. There are some rules when it comes to the amount of time since the payment so you should really do it yesterday. What happens from there on I cannot really say but with some luck you get your money back in like 2ish weeks towards your CC-account. But this only works with real credit cards like (Visa, Mastercard, AMEX). Debit cards, pre charged etc. will not work in this way I am pretty certain. Best would really be to contact the company that issued you your CC since they know best . But 2 friends of mine and myself had no problems to get the money back from CC charge... each in the range 200-400 EUR. Was all Mastercard though but at least Visa uses the same guidelines I think (well mostly at least).

Thank you guys/gals.
Its much appreciated, genuinely

#clueless @ 33 years

@Steve

"Without getting in to the complexitys the credit card company is just as responsible for dilivering the goods as the seller."

Well that is not entirely true really. What they will do though is charge back the bank that has the Maelstrom Games acoounts since that bank did let them use this method of payment. So in the end the bank with the Maelstrom accounts will have to pay most of the consumer owned money (at least those parts that could be reclaimed in this way). But doesnt matter in the end anyways .

Hope its not Anglo Irish bank then (injoke amongst us Paddies).
Sorry.

Maelstrom Games blew it with not communicating their problems with their customers. Had they been truthful up front, maybe more people would rally behind them. They didn't, and I suspect they will have a hard time running an online store for a while to come. It's a shame, because they've been my goto store for a while now.

However, I also think that Wayland isn't really the "saviors" they put themselves to be. They wanted to get rid of their main competetor, they clearly state so in their announcement. They wanted to purchase MG. I doubt it is because they cared about MGs customers, but rather to protect themselves as a company. Which is fair. What I don't particularly enjoy is their attempt at a hostile takeover. They bought their debt to "force a resolution". Either MG would have to be sold to Wayland, or they had to go out of business. Both actions that would benefit Wayland more than anyone else. They surely didn't help me as a MG customer.

It is fair what they did from a business perspective, which I guess it's their only view. It wasn't fair from an ethical point of view to take out a main competitor. Because of this Wayland will have to work hard to get me, at least, as a customer.

Business is War and all that?

#Rising Sun

Sun Tzu is your best friend eh?

Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

Noir wrote:
Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

People weren't "ripped off" by Maelstrom until Wayland forced them to it.

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:
Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

People weren't "ripped off" by Maelstrom until Wayland forced them to it.

You really belive that? So everyone was paying for the item the wanted and getting them, instead of paying money to buy models for other people with there money, and hoping more poeple would buy stuff so Mealstorm could buy the product the want.

100K of debt say on way more then the other.

maelstrom games bankruptcy official notice wrote:...those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November)...

well, that sounds like all of my outstanding stuff will yet be shipped. I'll hold off on contacting my CC provider a little longer

Good on wayland; Maelstrom was funneling assets NEEDED to pay a much-needed distributor back on a large debt into mr. Lane's other assets well before this; as far as I can see that whole supply chain was getting stuffed badly and Wayland basically stepped in preventing worse. Sure a takeover would have had it's perks for wayland; just letting Maelstrom die would, however, have been better for them yet. The rest of the industry and hobbyists - yeah, not so much.
Sure they get some business advantage out of this; that doesn't mean it can't also be a good, nice thing to do as well

Sun Tzu is your best friend eh?

No, Sean Connery is

Noir wrote:

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:
Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

People weren't "ripped off" by Maelstrom until Wayland forced them to it.

You really belive that? So everyone was paying for the item the wanted and getting them, instead of paying money to buy models for other people with there money, and hoping more poeple would buy stuff so Mealstorm could buy the product the want.

100K of debt say on way more then the other.

Granted, they were in financial difficulties obviously, seeing they had high debts. But according to MGs announcement, they had an agreement to pay off that debt with 500 a day, or 15000 a month. But prior of this "forced resolution" by Wayland MG was still fulfulling their orders. I ain't saying that they would have managed to come out unscattered, but I ain't either saying that they wouldn't. Wayland made sure, though, that they wouldn't. And effectively made sure a lot of customers of MG of late wasn't getting their orders. Thus, Wayland forced them into action with their firesales, but it wasn't enough, obviously. Also, I ain't saying that MG has nothing of the blame. Obviously they do with their "moving warehouse", lack of communication, splitting up business, etc. But to state that Wayland did the right thing, unbiased, is bulls'it in my opinion.

And so the saga ends. Interesting to see now that we were being lied to basically through the last 6 months.

Notice the dates on Maelstrom's statement - mid-June is when they started repaying their debt, and 1st of October is when the debt was purchased by Wayland.

Yet the last "sale" e-mail dates to 29th of October, which is nearly a month after Wayland took over the debt.

Shame I won't be doing business with EotS, as I think some of the models are nice - I got the sword-melusines, for example.

Congrats to Wayland, taking over the debt was a shrewd business manoeuvre.

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:

grefven wrote:

Noir wrote:
Wayland Games, THANK YOU.

Now no one else can be ripped off by Maelstorm. And you used a common pratice to do it. It not you fault Maelstorm made it easy for you.

People weren't "ripped off" by Maelstrom until Wayland forced them to it.

You really belive that? So everyone was paying for the item the wanted and getting them, instead of paying money to buy models for other people with there money, and hoping more poeple would buy stuff so Mealstorm could buy the product the want.

100K of debt say on way more then the other.

Granted, they were in financial difficulties obviously, seeing they had high debts. But according to MGs announcement, they had an agreement to pay off that debt with 500 a day, or 15000 a month. But prior of this "forced resolution" by Wayland MG was still fulfulling their orders. I ain't saying that they would have managed to come out unscattered, but I ain't either saying that they wouldn't. Wayland made sure, though, that they wouldn't. And effectively made sure a lot of customers of MG of late wasn't getting their orders. Thus, Wayland forced them into action with their firesales, but it wasn't enough, obviously. Also, I ain't saying that MG has nothing of the blame. Obviously they do with their "moving warehouse", lack of communication, splitting up business, etc. But to state that Wayland did the right thing, unbiased, is bulls'it in my opinion.

And Wayland said there were not paying off there debt. Who didn't spend the last 6+ month lieing about a warehouse move. Pick who you want to belive, it is your choose.

Typically a company calling in a debt would need to give a months notice

so Wayland buys debt and then immediatley calls it in on 1st Oct,

Maelstrom then had 1 month to find the cash

hence the fire sale to try and do so, probably ending on the last day before the court got involved

So customers just got gakked even though they knew full well they were going under?

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Typically a company calling in a debt would need to give a months notice

so Wayland buys debt and then immediatley calls it in on 1st Oct,

Maelstrom then had 1 month to find the cash

hence the fire sale to try and do so, probably ending on the last day before the court got involved

Ok, change the word "lying" for "purposely not informing". Maelstrom knew they would not be able to pull through but they still continued the "sales".

 Alkasyn wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Typically a company calling in a debt would need to give a months notice

so Wayland buys debt and then immediatley calls it in on 1st Oct,

Maelstrom then had 1 month to find the cash

hence the fire sale to try and do so, probably ending on the last day before the court got involved

Ok, change the word "lying" for "purposely not informing". Maelstrom knew they would not be able to pull through but they still continued the "sales".

If they were thinking that, then they wouldn't send out orders that are dropping in to people every now and then. I think they hoped that the sales was going to be enough, but it wasn't. Then together with the snowball effect with people (rightfully so, I must add) cancelling their orders to get their money back. It didn't add up in the end then.

grefven I think you are grossly underestimating the level of debt/creditors.

rich1231 wrote:
We do run our business ethically though and the way we operate is important to us.

Based on the only dealings anyone I know personally has had with your company, I'm not sure how you can type that with a straight face, but there you go.

Looks like I might have to have a gander at Firestorm in the new year, then - bar one model and an issue of No Quarter, I think my hobby budget is tapped out for 2012

I am a bit confused by this new revelation.

So all customers of Maelstrom lost their money and confidence in cheap webstores, because Wayland wanted to protect those customers and their confidence in cheap webstores (and basically used THEIR customers' money for that)?

Doesn't make sense to me. Destroying the competition while having the opportunity sounds more likely and fits the results.

When a company is in trouble it is understandable that that they don't shout it from the roof-tops because this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So I don't "blame" Maelstrom Games for not "sharing" their financial problems when they were at an early stage.

What they could have done was rely on their (then) good name, reduce the discounts and end free P&P etc. i.e. change the way they did business to bring more revenue on stream and cut costs.

Quite clearly however their response to the situation was to continue to offer discounts they couldn't afford using the money from new customers to fulfill orders to existing customers - a ponzi scheme - in which the debt mushroomed to unaffordable levels and it seems assets were siphoned off into new ventures leaving the MG brand holding all the debt.

Now Wayland Games were probably not being as altruistic as they suggest because buying up a competitors debt and forcing them out of business whilst not pretty is a fairly standard business tactic.

That does NOT make Wayland Games liable for MG orders not being filled however - MG had already set up a business model in which at some point a lot of people were not going to get their goods regardless.

That's what happens with ponzi schemes and (apparently) deliberately managed bankruptcies.

It happened to be Wayland Games who called in the debts - but frankly it could have been anybody at any time because those debts were growing, not shrinking, as MG was being hollowed out by its owners.

There is a difference between being ruthless in business (Wayland Games) and being unethical if not illegal (MG, Mierce, EOTS).

Wayland Games will still get my business until they don't deserve it, Mierce, EOTS - never.

And I will protect my purchasing as already outlined, so if a firm does go out of business at least I will only have to worry about the inconvenience of not getting my order as opposed to the real financial loss of my money.

Maelstrom are making a desperate attempt to deflect the blame for there failure.

They admit to having lied for 6 months regarding the warehouse move and then try and smear a competitor to distract people.

This does not change the fact that all the shell companies being used to attempt to hide assets were created in May/June.

It does not change the fact that they have continued to take peoples money for pre orders since August that they knew they could not get.

It does not change the fact that as of April they owed a massive amount to various people.

It does not change the fact they appear to have continued to trade while insolvent.

It does not change the fact that they should have refunded people funds paid for pre orders, that they should never have advertised knowing that they could not obtain them.

It does not change the fact they continued to take peoples money while not supplying the goods or supplying the incorrect goods during the firesale when they knew they planned to fold the company.

In regards to people saying that the firesale was to raise funds to clear the debt, I doubt it as there entire inventory as of the 1st October 2012 had a value of less than they owed one creditor. It appears to have been a spiteful attempt to leave as little as possible for the receivers to sell so that there debts could be paid.

As I suspect will be proven in public record when the receivers finally move in, maelstrom will be shown to have been a massive threat to wargaming in the UK due to the outstanding amount they owed UK distributors, which as Wayland stated was threatening the supply chain to them and most other independent games stores.

Sounds to me like Maelstrom was on a self-destructing path for a long time already, and it was threatening to harm the chain of supply & the (local GB/mailorder-site) industry as a whole, leading to Wayland finally taking this measure to remove the rotten part of the apple before the whole thing was decayed beyond help.

It's probably convenient that a competitor was eliminated this way at the same time, but the company who sold the debt to Wayland apparently didn't have any confidence that Maelstrom would be able to pay what they owed them, so I can buy the general story as presented, also considering the way Maelstrom knowingly shammed people at the end of their downfall

It might be my cynical side, but I hardly think a move that gets a competitor (their largest) out of bushiness, especially after two failed buyout attempts is been done "for the good of the customers and the community as a whole", its a cold blooded business maneuver and one successfully executed.

Maelstrom may had planned a warehouse move, may have used it as an excuse, I honestly doubt anybody in his right mind would say all the above happened and we need cash to survive, please buy from us and expect to have a positive effect, in any case I see their moves as a reaction to something that came suddenly without been expected and forced, I am not saying they were good moves, probably panic moves.

I am puzzled with simple miniatures, why sell their debt to a known competitor, why not sell it to a bank, why lie in the Wyrd forums that they gave it to an institution (ie either a bank or an investment company) to deal with it and not say straight we gave it to their competitors and they will fold or better not say anything at all since it should be in their theoretical interests to not discredit Maelstrom from their attempt to collect the debt, more importantly what guaranties they will not "help" other competitors to force their competitors out of business in the future with a similar move?

At least the Beasts of War uncannily timely and out of the blue "here is what to do when your LGS goes out of business" article suddenly makes sense as another blow to a struggling Maelstrom, maybe a bit of inside knowledge here, they are partners or a sub division of wayland after all.

Personally I cannot see how a debt that is no issue for a retailer to buy with full knowledge it will not be payed would be hurting a retailer so much as it has been described in Waylands excuse.

is Maelstrom free of blame, I do not think so they left themselves open for this to happen, when they started looking at other ventures and probably got weakened from GWs embargo, but I doubt they had malicious intends towards their customers, for one they would not send whatever items they have been sending all these days.

The last part of wayland games pdf is interesting though, the best interests of maelstrom games customers? does this mean they plan on fulfilling the orders left from Maelstrom in an admittedly clever PR move, or something else like , see we closed the bad guy who ripped you off and now the field is clean.

Of course these are my initial thoughts on the subject, the field is rather cloudy at the moment, everybody can claim whatever they want and I doubt we will see the details surface soon.