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An Interesting argument came up today during a game today.  A thousand son player has a demon prince which is a Necron Deciever with wings and a scythe.  His tactic is to keep the prince right behind his rhinos to escort into close combat. 
The Imperial Guard player declares he wants to shoot the demon prince (as a battlecannon can cause some nice collateral damage to the sons around the prince).  The sons player says no, and an argument ensues.  Since I'm the deciding judge at the store they ask me.  I flip through the book and can find no supporting evidence for either side.

So now I ask Dakka-land.

If I have a c'tan deciever standing behind a rhino can a leman russ target him?

Size categories only come into play when shooting over area terrain or ongoing close combats.

In all other situations, you use a model's eye view to determine LOS.

 

Foda,

I'm not sure where you were looking but the LOS rules on page 20 clearly states that models can shoot over vehicles if they can draw LOS using a model's eye view.

And just to add my two teef, both yakface and Centurian99 are correct. Size classifications are only used in regards to Area Terrain and ongoing close combats.

I have a semi related question to this. During a friendly game on saturday I had scouts OOS inside of size 2 ruins. And by ruins I dont mean a terrain peice, but ruined columns that had been declared size 2 at beginning of game. His LRC proceeds to start shooting at the squad, with zero LOS, and I am told that since the LRC is Size 3 he can see inside the ruins, even though he cannot see a single model

You don't give non-area terrain size classifications. If you designated the ruins as area terrain, then it should be on a base or have some defining edge to it.

If size 2 models are in size 2 area terrain and they are more than 6" from the edge, they cannot see out or be seen by anyone, even a size 3 model. Size 3 Models can see OVER size 2 terrain, but they cannot see size 2 models more than 6" into a size 2 piece of area terrain.

However, if they were within 6" of the edge of the area terrain, then they can be seen and see out regardless of the physical state of the LOS (and regardless of the size of the firing model).

Its all there on page 21 of the rulebook. You should take a second and browse it.

The biggest argument in the original game (after he saw the rules) was the fact that since the model is modeled as "hovering" he shouldn't be able to be targeted cause he can walk.
IMHO even if he used the official model the "official" model it would still be able to be shot.

Posted By Foda_Bett on 11/20/2006 3:56 PM
The biggest argument in the original game (after he saw the rules) was the fact that since the model is modeled as "hovering" he shouldn't be able to be targeted cause he can walk.

Which is fine, so long as he also draws LOS from the model at the same level...


The rules of Warhammer 40K really don't take modelling into account, aside from the proviso that you have to draw LOS to the target's body to stop people from being penalised for having an arm sticking out from behind cover.

There are no rules that allow you to treat a model any differently just because it is modelled hovering in the air. LOS to and from the model still uses the same rules, which rely on the actual position of the model, not the position it would be in if you were using a different model entirely...

Posted By Ghaz on 11/19/2006 9:55 PM
And just to add my two teef, both yakface and Centurian99 are correct. Size classifications are only used in regards to Area Terrain and ongoing close combats.

Whoops, My bad moosifer

Although, it's kinda wierd that it works that way...It's not as if vehicles are modelled proportionately to non-vehicle models, and terrain is even worse in regards to that.

Yea logan, was just asking. I had fun getting stomped on sat, too bad you and trooper wont be there this weekend

And now we are back to the crawling Wraithlord being able to hide behind all vehicles. Same with Demon Princes, just make them crouch, tuck in those wings on the model, etc... and now it can hide? How about if I melt the Unclean One down into a lump of metal? He looks about the same and now a Rhino will hide him......... I think the size classification should be used for everything to avoid this kind of abuse.

The Wraith

Posted By the_wraith on 11/21/2006 12:57 PM
And now we are back to the crawling Wraithlord being able to hide behind all vehicles.      

And you have seen how many of these on the table, exactly?

Posted By the_wraith on 11/21/2006 12:57 PM
......... I think the size classification should be used for everything to avoid this kind of abuse.

The Wraith

Or, you could just refuse to play with the jerk of your local group.

......... I think the rulebook should be used for everything to avoid this kind of argument.

Using size classification for all LOS issues wouldn't end the abuse. It would just cause new problems. The best way to deal with people who use modelling to abuse the rules is to not play them; or when forced to play them make their gaming experience as painful as possible.

Posted By winterman on 11/21/2006 2:34 PM
Using size classification for all LOS issues wouldn't end the abuse. It would just cause new problems.     

The obvious one being that you can suddenly chance a model's LOS profile simply by changing the size and/or shape of the base.

This has been a major issue with me which is what caused me to stop using the large bases for the HW IG teams. People would claim that i need LOS with the gunner but then when they droped ordnance and barely skimmed the base they would claim TWO partials one for the gunner and one for the loader. BS!!!

Also the rules clearly say that people should not be penalized to having elaborate modeling/banners and the like. People who play that whole shooting antennas way just suck. If it were me and they would insist on this I would just tell them they win then pack up and leave.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/21/2006 7:00 PM
This has been a major issue with me which is what caused me to stop using the large bases for the HW IG teams.

I think you've wandered off into a different issue. LOS for two models sharing a base is nothing to do with LOS based on Size categories/base diameter.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/21/2006 7:00 PM
People would claim that i need LOS with the gunner but then when they droped ordnance and barely skimmed the base they would claim TWO partials one for the gunner and one for the loader. BS!!!

There is no 'gunner'... just two guys who share a Heavy Weapon, so LOS can be drawn from either. However, templates and markers will affect both models on the base, so that much was correct.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/21/2006 7:00 PM
People who play that whole shooting antennas way just suck. 

More to the point, they are cheating, since the rules clearly forbid this.

Posted By insaniak on 11/21/2006 1:05 PM

Posted By the_wraith on 11/21/2006 12:57 PM
And now we are back to the crawling Wraithlord being able to hide behind all vehicles.      

And you have seen how many of these on the table, exactly?

Three, in two different armies.

I have alos seen a kneeling Wraithlord. It looked like he was doing Ti-chi for God's sake.

I know that it isn't the true rules, but I always prefer to use magic cylandar and size catagories for all shooting. It just seems to make the game funner and faster while not penalizing people for how they depict their models.

Posted By cuda1179 on 11/22/2006 3:16 PM

I have alos seen a kneeling Wraithlord.

Yup, that was more or less my point. They're out there, but they're not common. In 12 years of playing, I've come across one kneeling Wraithlord, and it wasn't even for a playable army, just a display piece.

The simple fact is that this isn't anything new. The rules have allowed you to alter a model's LOS profile by reposing it for more than 15 years now. It simply isn't the problem that many people make it out to be because very, very few people try to take advantage of it. Probably because they realise how few games they'll get if they do.

And, of course, that's ignoring the fact that for many models, the 'advantage' of lowering their LOS profile also makes it harder for them to draw LOS TO a potential target. It's only really an advantage for models without a ranged weapon.

it is also an advantag for models that like to stay hidden until they pop out and blow you away with incredible firepower. Like a group of catachans with demo charges a few yyears ago that were all converted out of the croutched missile launcher guy or the crawling snipers.

How long do you think it will be untill someone realises that there are a set of kneeling marine legs out there and make a tucked-up librarian?

Oh, please.

The kneeling legs make a marine model a full 1/4 of an inch shorter than a standing marine.

Yup, that's a game-breaking difference right there...



And really, it's no different to the Wraithlord. Yes, it's possible. Who actually does it? The kneeling legs have been around for what, nearly 2 years now?

Im not sure about that one. The FAQ says to treat them as two separate models that have been placed together for ease of movement. I know the rules say if the base is partially covered, however it says to treat them as separate models so therefor a one inch diamater around thier feet is what I would say gives a partial.



If they were hiding behind vehicles I would imagine that they would not be able to be shot at anyways since the vehicle is a size larger than them.

Posted By smart_alex on 11/22/2006 7:12 PM

Im not sure about that one. The FAQ says to treat them as two separate models that have been placed together for ease of movement. I know the rules say if the base is partially covered, however it says to treat them as separate models so therefor a one inch diamater around thier feet is what I would say gives a partial.

Yes, but page 6 states that a model's base is part of the model. So if a blast covers part of the base that both models are on, guess what? Both models have to be rolled for to see if they're hit on a 4+.

It's really not that bad. While having a large base does mean they are more likely to be partialled by a blast, it means they are less likely to be fully covered (and therefore automatically hit) by the same blast.

 

Posted By smart_alex on 11/22/2006 7:12 PM
however it says to treat them as separate models so therefor a one inch diamater around thier feet is what I would say gives a partial.

Treat them as seperate models... not treat them as if they were on a completely different base.

The end result is that they are two seperate models who each have a 60mm base.

But as Yakface says, it has advantages as well as disadvantages.