Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But it doesn't kill Marines, Tanks, or Monsterous creatures all that well, and that's what people use in 40k. It also takes up a Heavy Slot, and Devastators with the Combat Squads rule are one of the few "decent" things that exist in the DA codex.

DA actually have a ridiculously hard time getting enough things that kill monsters/tanks/marines well for a reasonable number of points.

The only good slots in the entire codex are HQ (and only Sammael) and heavy, and the best deal in heavy is something that doesn't kill tanks or monsters or marines. Kind of ironic in a way. So you get stuck taking dev squads which are still sub-par when it comes down to it. I'd rather have las/plas squads any day.

I know it's been said, but if you can make your list better with the plain codex there isn't enough of a boost.

There is not a single list so far posited that would not be better vanilla.

Speeders and bikes? Be swift like ze wind and take scout bikes/bikes as your troops, for fewer points and with meltabombs. And your speeders are 15pts cheaper each.

Terminators? Pretty much any list you take will be better because your termies get two heavy guns.

Mechanized? You can take six man squads in razorbacks which are vastly better than DA's 10 man squads in razorbacks which can split 1/3rd of the time (not in escalation). This list is pretty gay honestly but it's still better vanilla.

Post your best DA list and I'll fix it as vanilla for you, free of charge.

Azriel
Ezikiel
term squad 1 ac
las plaz 10 man squad x2
full 10 man dev 4 hb
full 10 man dev 4 ml

sammal
5X2 man tac plas
2X plas cannon/HF ven dread
10X2 man dev all plas
5 man dev all las

How about the one I posted earlier?

Company Master w/ 2 lightning claws 130

3x Tac Squad (10) w/ 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma Cannon, Power Sword, and Razorback 260x 3 = 780

Ravenwing bikes (3) w/ 2 melta guns, multi-melta attack bike 190

2 Land Speeders w/ multi-melta 130

1 Land Speeder w/ multi-melta 65

Devestator Squad (10) w/ 4 Plasma Cannons 265

2x Preditor w/ auto cannon,2 hvy bolters 95 = 180

Total: 1750

Posted By davidson on 04/02/2007 4:21 PM
Azriel
Ezikiel
term squad 1 ac
las plaz 10 man squad x2
full 10 man dev 4 hb
full 10 man dev 4 ml

Librarian with fear/fury/term armor,  termie command squad, dual assault cannons (400ish)

6 x 6 las/plas squads ( 690)

8 man dev with 4 ML (200)
8 man dev with 4 HB (180)
== 1470

Posted By IAMYOU on 04/02/2007 10:58 PM
sammal
5X2 man tac plas
2X plas cannon/HF ven dread
10X2 man dev all plas
5 man dev all las

Chaplain on a bike with bolt pistol, artificer armor, terminator honors (150ish)

3 x 6 las/plas (345)

2 x lascannon/ML venerable dreads (300 or so)

2 x 8 dev with 2 ML/2 Las (460)

6 man dev with 2 las (160)

More guns and 50-100 pts left over.

Posted By the_wraith on 04/03/2007 5:27 AM
How about the one I posted earlier?

Company Master w/ 2 lightning claws 130

3x Tac Squad (10) w/ 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma Cannon, Power Sword, and Razorback 260x 3 = 780

Ravenwing bikes (3) w/ 2 melta guns, multi-melta attack bike 190

2 Land Speeders w/ multi-melta 130

1 Land Speeder w/ multi-melta 65

Devestator Squad (10) w/ 4 Plasma Cannons 265

2x Preditor w/ auto cannon,2 hvy bolters 95 = 180

Total: 1750

Even easier this time.

Requires be swift as the wind

hq
Master with lightning claws and terminator armor (130ish?)

troops
3 x 6 man squad with las/plas and razorback with HBs (555)
2 x 6 man las/plas squad (230)
1 x 5 bikers with sarge, meltabombs, powerfist, 2 meltaguns, homer (215)

fast:
3 x 1 landspeeder tornado (240)

3 el cheapo predators (315)
= 1685
100pts to burn on whatever you want. I took some editorial license with this list because a 4 plasma dev squad is pretty slowed, but you can drop your tornados to multimeltas and drop one predator and buy that squad.

List is still way, way better.

Bear in mind I did all of those with no thought or reference to the codex, completely from memory, in about 5 minutes each. Numbers may be a point or two off, feel free to call me if they are and I'll fix them .

yeah longshot is right on the money

ive run the numbers and i can make a more effective, nearly all terminator, grey knight list than a deathwing list for the same points

 

i can also do a white scars list that makes the new incarnation of ravenwing look pitiful by comparison. i could literally outride and outshoot them now if i used WSs

Yup I agree, every time I try to write a DA list it turns out to be crud. The models turned out pretty good but the rules are so...*****

Posted By Longshot on 04/03/2007 3:35 PM
Even easier this time.

Requires be swift as the wind

hq
Master with lightning claws and terminator armor (130ish?)

troops
3 x 6 man squad with las/plas and razorback with HBs (555)
2 x 6 man las/plas squad (230)
1 x 5 bikers with sarge, meltabombs, powerfist, 2 meltaguns, homer (215)

fast:
3 x 1 landspeeder tornado (240)

3 el cheapo predators (315)
= 1685
100pts to burn on whatever you want. I took some editorial license with this list because a 4 plasma dev squad is pretty slowed, but you can drop your tornados to multimeltas and drop one predator and buy that squad.

List is still way, way better.

How is this better? My list would beat this one easily, baring dice rolls. I have a more mobile element in the three small combat squads with sarge and the plasma. This will let the plasma be more useful than in your build. The plasma cannons will tip the balance against the las cannons unless you stretch your units out to their max and then most likely the P cannon could only see part of your unit making it easier to kill the Lascannon (though this depends on terrain). The only thing I see as a problem are the three tanks since my army needs the fast attack to strike at them for any large chance of success. In escalation I would also have all the plasma cannons on to pick off your force as it came on the table peice meal.

5 lascannons, 5 plasma guns, 3 assualt cannons. 6 heavy bolters, 2 melta guns, plus whatever a cheapo predator has (sorry, I dp not have my book here to look up the points an what that give you), 35 guys, 6 light tanks, 3 heavy tanks, and 12 units. Compared to 7 plasma cannons, 7 heavy bolters, 2 auto cannons, 4 multi-meltas, 3 plasma guns, and 2 melta guns, 44 guys, 6 light tanks, 2 heavy tanks, and 14 units. Do the three predators make up for the difference?

Also, what is so bad about four plasma cannons in a dev squad? Especially when you can split them.

 

The Wraith

"Also, what is so bad about four plasma cannons in a dev squad? Especially when you can split them."

Read the 4th edition rules for blast templates.

Posted By the_wraith on 04/04/2007 5:47 AM

5 lascannons, 5 plasma guns, 3 assualt cannons. 6 heavy bolters, 2 melta guns, plus whatever a cheapo predator has (sorry, I dp not have my book here to look up the points an what that give you), 35 guys, 6 light tanks, 3 heavy tanks, and 12 units. Compared to 7 plasma cannons, 7 heavy bolters, 2 auto cannons, 4 multi-meltas, 3 plasma guns, and 2 melta guns, 44 guys, 6 light tanks, 2 heavy tanks, and 14 units. Do the three predators make up for the difference?

Also, what is so bad about four plasma cannons in a dev squad? Especially when you can split them.

Three cheapo Preds are Destructors with HB sponsons.  1 AC and 2 HB each.  That makes his gun count 5 lascannons and 3 assault cannons to your 7 plasmacannons and  4 multimeltas, 5 plasmaguns to your 3 plasmaguns, 12 heavy bolters to your 7, 3 autocannons to your 2, and 2 meltaguns each. 

While your multimeltas are neat when they work, his list has vastly more anti-troop AND anti-tank firepower, because lascannons put out consistent long-range, high strength and low AP shots, while Multimeltas usually only get off one or two shots a game.  You have more models, but your units are not as effective at their jobs.  And he still has 12 scoring units to your 14, making that one advantage a rather slim one.

I'm also trying to get my DA to work, but it's a tough row to hoe.

Sadly, plasmacannon are terrible against everything except squads piling out of transports or deep striking.  Everyone else can reliably and regularly spread out enough to keep you from getting multiple hits.  And S7 is really inadequate against vehicles. 

Plus my vet in the biker squad has a powerfist

Anyway, I don't want to oversell my point and piss people off, but this is just the way I see it. Every iteration of a list I come up with is better as vanilla. The margin can be small, so that the vanilla is only a tiny bit better, as it is in Mannahnin's list (posted in army lists).

But being only a little worse in every way than SM:Blueguys doesn't make you a codex. Every codex is supposed to have strong points, where it can make a certain type of list better than other codexes can.

Codex DA and codex BT are missing that which makes them failures in my book, and not worth using unless you really want one of the unique things.

As far as building a functional DA army, there're a few things you get that are worth taking advantage of:

No cover save whirlwinds
cheap predators
splittable devsquads
librarian with the uber leadership save power
Sammael
cheap transports

Most of the functional things here are in the heavy slot, making the army a really tough sell.

Everywhere else you lose points or gain nothing over either Chaos or SM.
-Your bikes are worse
-Your landspeeders are no better, but cost more
-Your terminators are no better, but cost more (even Chaos termies are better due to range of reapers)
-Your tac squads are no better, but cost more (significantly - double the cost for a lascannon)
-Your jump pack squads are about the same but can't form the optimal 6-8 man units. 10 is OK though so this is a wash.
-Your dreadnoughts are no better, but cost more
-Your HQs are craptastic with few options
-Your scouts are elites but get sexy shotguns. Still mostly useless.
-Your veterans are ok if you really want to fight, due to the fairly cheap termy honors, but too expensive for most applications.


The challenge is to come up with a list that is either better, or drastically more flexible than a normal marine list with similar components.

One big problem to keep in mind is that, when buying cheap transports, your squad does not get to split during escalation. This is a severe neutering to the combat squads rule and imho makes it almost worthless for tactical squads who intend to take transports. Dev squads with no transport sound fine of course.

Maybe you could do something like:

Sammael (speeder)
3 x Landraider (normal, for lascannons)
30 scouts with pfist vets
2 x 3 man bike squad with meltaguns (troops)
assault marines to fill out points

Probly the best landraider army since it gets a fourth Av14 guy (skimmer) and can use cheap bikes as troops while still getting assault marines.

still kind of sucks though, and takes 2k pts to be happy. slim at 1850.

longshot, I think the veterans are a bit more of an advantage then you make them out to be but other then that your list is spot on.

the only build not mentioned that has potential to be better then codex is the marine horde list (which is more of a gimmick list and not that great in 4ed but still has potential). Problem is the list isn't that great until about the 2000 point level.

The other factor which doesn't bear mathematical calculation is the usefulness of the combat squads rule. This rule MAY have enough tactical utility to make up for a lot of the stupid little handicaps they take (like being forced to take veterans in every squad, and paying more for virtually every effective weapon than regular marines do).

Unfortunately, as Longshot has pointed out, the idiotic way Combat Squads works with Escalation utterly nullifies its utility in those missions. That's 1/3rd of games if you roll by the book, and literally 50% of all games played at UK GTs.

I do think I will be painting up a Librarian with a jump pack, though. He's 140pts and gets 1 fewer attack than a marine one, but his powers are unique. The flamer one averages S5 and has a 50/50 shot of low enough AP to penetrate power armor. That's not too shabby.

I find it strange that there is this mentality that if 'X' it is not as good as the last edition had it, then 'X' sucks in the new edition, period. Did template weapons become downgraded, yes, but they are still viable. All it takes is one patrial to make it better than a lasconnan shooting at a unit and that is normall not that difficult to find. There is also the intangible of forcing you opponent to spreadout ansd disperse their firepower, while you can stay in a tighter formation. Not to mention I have always found S7 weapons to be good secondary vehicle killers. Maybe to comes from playing the Tau too much with their combined arms feel, but this army has that feel as well.

Yes, those predators do tip the balnce of heavy weapons in his favor, but I do not see how his is better against hordes. The extra heavy bolters fielded are offset by the plasma cannon. Yes, yes, the template thing.... A horded has a terrible time not bunching up around terrain and if they do stay spreadout then the army will come in way too peice meal to be that effective.

I would still love to have this battle. I think the outcome would suprise many on this board. Thanks for the replies though

The Wraith

That's why I think a marine horde seems like a decent build with Dark Angels. Unlike any horde build using the marine dex, the dark angels can take the necessary 10 man squads and not have most of them sitting arond babysitting a heavy weapon.

Posted By the_wraith on 04/04/2007 11:11 AM
I find it strange that there is this mentality that if 'X' it is not as good as the last edition had it, then 'X' sucks in the new edition, period. Did template weapons become downgraded, yes, but they are still viable. All it takes is one patrial to make it better than a lasconnan shooting at a unit and that is normall not that difficult to find. There is also the intangible of forcing you opponent to spreadout ansd disperse their firepower, while you can stay in a tighter formation. Not to mention I have always found S7 weapons to be good secondary vehicle killers. Maybe to comes from playing the Tau too much with their combined arms feel, but this army has that feel as well.

The problems are that in many circumstances you won't get that partial, and that slots for lascannons are so precious in a DA/SM army that taking S7 guns in them is really shooting yourself in the foot when a heavy vehicle comes on the table.  Yes, S7 is great for "secondary" vehicle killers, but you need primary vehicle killers.  And a combination of Multimeltas and Plasmacannons just can't substitute for S9 with 48" range.

IME (and I just got back from a weekend in which I played 7 games of 40k), the instances in which squads bunch up are not common enough to make the small blast template very effective.   I like the concept of having one or two in an army to make people worry a bit about their movement and deployment, and to punish Deep Strikers, but taking them en masse in place of Lascannons is akin to madness.

Posted By the_wraith on 04/04/2007 11:11 AM

Yes, those predators do tip the balnce of heavy weapons in his favor, but I do not see how his is better against hordes. The extra heavy bolters fielded are offset by the plasma cannon. Yes, yes, the template thing.... A horded has a terrible time not bunching up around terrain and if they do stay spreadout then the army will come in way too peice meal to be that effective.

I would still love to have this battle. I think the outcome would suprise many on this board. Thanks for the replies though

The only horde army I faced this last weekend that had any trouble spreading out was a rare footslogging Ork force.  And they had grot screens to give them a 5+ cover save against any blast templates coming their way.

Against the Genestealers and other light infantry I saw, heavy bolters were quite effective, no matte how the enemy spread themselves out. 

Posted By the_wraith on 04/04/2007 11:11 AM

I would still love to have this battle. I think the outcome would suprise many on this board. Thanks for the replies though

Hey, it could certainly come out with a win.  Apart from the Plasmacannons vs the lascannons when it comes to killing each other, his advantage in the matchup isn't enormous.  But it's there and it's demonstrable in simple math.  And it means that, on average, you'll win a bit less than an equally skilled player using a nearly-identical list built with C:SM.

When an army can be shown by arithmetic to get less of the stuff it needs for MORE points, players wonder what incentive exists to play it? 

Certainly sweet models are one.  But you can use most of them with the regular codex. 

Combat squads are a joke. Combat dev squads you say? Just take the trait that allows you to play 6 dev squads if you want to so bad.

People have these medium sized tac squads with las cannons for a few reasons. Mostly because they get shot at and die. So the extra marines are there to soak wounds for the las cannon. And they still have enough bolters to put some dakka on the field.

This whole "well you can take some guys and move foward" thing is nonsense. You can do the same thing with the SM codex, just take 5 guys give them what ever and move them forward! It's another troop slot but big woop, when's the last time you maxed out your troop choice with sm's in a 1500 point game?

And with all those 5 man squads running around, torrent of fire bends DA over the table.

Since the concept of "sucks" is relative, once they release Codex: Nerf Marines, then the Codex: Nerf Angels will look decent again. Or at least be equally weak.

Then they'll have to release Codex: Nerfzilla to match up with the upcoming Codex: Nerfdemons. After they've done all that, we might actually see Codex: Orks, which will probably just suck, since nerfing would be redundant.

There really isn't a mathematical way to make a list with Codex: Nerf Angels that can't be built a little better with C:SM. I think you've all proven that here.

The best chance is to take the AV 14 Landspeeder and then build something that will be just as good as Vanilla once "C:SM redux" removes half the assault cannons from everyone else's terminator squads and forces power armor into combat squads too. Hey, maybe non-combat squad formations will be a Trait!

Then we can all go buy Tau, since they will be the last in line for rebalancing.

I was going to say /sarcasm but I just realized I'm probably not far off...

I'm beginning to think seriously about converting my Ravenwing army to Fallen DA (using the Iron Warriors rules), using obliterators as corrupted Deathwing members, bikers as bikers, marines as marines, and converting a landspeeder or two into tanks (would make a pretty cool looking defiler .

This total nerf of my 7000 pts of marines burned me very very badly.

I wouldn't. The day you finish the conversion Chaos will be nerfed worse and a new 'FAQ' will be released saying that DA and BT can still take Chapter traits from C:SM and players were stupid and unfluffy for thinking otherwise.

I no longer consider the dex worthy to be called Dark Angels as I once remembered them (Ahh the good ol days) and don't really like Nerf Angels so I think I will go with Jervis Angels at my local FLAGS. That way when a youngster comes up and asks "but I thought they were called Dark Angels" I can start with my good ol days stories prior to codex Jervis Angels. If the trend continues others could follow: Codex Jervis marines or how bout them Chaos Jervis marines. Then the youngsters will give me those strange looks like I have gone senile and play with thier combat squads anyway.

Posted By Recklessfable on 04/04/2007 2:10 PM
Since the concept of "sucks" is relative, once they release Codex: Nerf Marines, then the Codex: Nerf Angels will look decent again. Or at least be equally weak.

Then they'll have to release Codex: Nerfzilla to match up with the upcoming Codex: Nerfdemons. After they've done all that, we might actually see Codex: Orks, which will probably just suck, since nerfing would be redundant.

There really isn't a mathematical way to make a list with Codex: Nerf Angels that can't be built a little better with C:SM. I think you've all proven that here.

The best chance is to take the AV 14 Landspeeder and then build something that will be just as good as Vanilla once "C:SM redux" removes half the assault cannons from everyone else's terminator squads and forces power armor into combat squads too. Hey, maybe non-combat squad formations will be a Trait!

Then we can all go buy Tau, since they will be the last in line for rebalancing.

I was going to say /sarcasm but I just realized I'm probably not far off...

Lol.

Why not just make a new edition, instead of reprinting every codex just so that DA players can sleep warmly at night knowing theyre not the only redheaded stepchild?

A new edition isn't a bad idea. The 4th edition rulebook has a wide range of easily correctable errors.

I'd be happy to see 5th edition released this Christmas or so with some balance tweaks and a better written core rulebook.

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/04/2007 11:29 AM

The problems are that in many circumstances you won't get that partial, and that slots for lascannons are so precious in a DA/SM army that taking S7 guns in them is really shooting yourself in the foot when a heavy vehicle comes on the table.  Yes, S7 is great for "secondary" vehicle killers, but you need primary vehicle killers.  And a combination of Multimeltas and Plasmacannons just can't substitute for S9 with 48" range

Maybe it is part of the meta game around here, but I rarely have problems finding atleast one partial with a template. I also do not see a problem with not having lascannons in troop squads. The Tau I play do not have that option and they do well without. Now, the thing I would worry about is how fragile my tank busters are and that might make me reconsider if I ever made this army. Still, few armies field moer than one or two AV13+ vehicles and hopefully I have enough to deal with that.

Right now I am working on two other armies, though this one is moving up on the list because I like taking armies people think suck and win often with them....

The Wraith

The number of all Av12+ skimmer armies in this edition has made lascannons necessary. You're shootin yourself in the foot having more than one or two plasma cannons. Period. Even with one and a partial, that's only 50% more effective than a lascannon at killing guys but infinitely worse than a lascannon at taking out AV12 (the benchmark).

Winning often isn't hard. It's playing against good players with good armies and winning often that's hard. I have lost zero out of 40 or some-odd tournament games in the last couple years because frankly most of the people who play 40k are scrubs.

You won't have enough to deal with the following common lists in my area anyway:
Drop pod dreads.
Mech eldar
Mech tau
Mech marines (5 razorbacks, 3 predators, dreadnoughts)
Mech Sisters (3 exorcists, tons of rhinos)
Mech guard (5-6 chimeras, 3 hellhounds, 3 leman russes)
Godzilla nids (wound my gunfexes on a 4 v. wound my gunfexes on a 2. thanks for making the +1 toughness worthwhile)

Perhaps your local metagame is different but over here there's either a ton of vehicles or none, mostly, in good lists. And no I'm not counting your cousin's blood angels.