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The mechanized army is playable. buy everything but devsquads rhinos or razorbacks and split the squads when you have the opportunity. I don't see a lot of reason to use rhinos though, and think power-for-point ratio you'll find any good vanilla army to be better.

Ravenwing is useless. Deathwing is useless.

That's my complaint. My 12 landspeeder ravenwing army now has about 7 superfluous models. Thanks GW!

I can't get rid of my tornado speeders at 12-15 dollars apiece (built, painted to a gaming standar - some in not the best shape due to missing footpegs/pointy things, but whatever). Why? Because who the hell wants to buy them at 100 points for an AV10 skimmer with a 24" range main gun.

I can't recall the last time a codex was so completely fumbled. At least Eldar players could still use most of their units.

I wouldn't say most of their units, but the Eldar got enough cheese to somewhat make up for their share of bad army/unit design. The Dark Angels only have a bunch of disadvantages and a couple of weird units.

This thread should be renamed:

"Why dark angels suck more than anything ever known".

I have to agree with the seeming general consensus that 32 models @ 3000pts are no match for many normal 2000 pt armies made, armies that arent even at their full cheese potential such as iron warriors or siren princes.

man you got off easy.

out of the 27 models in my pure RW force at 1850 i managed to salvage TEN to put into my mult-wing force.

 

sheesh what did he spend the points on? my old DW list had 30 terminators and 3 dreads all with vet skills , 2 heavy weapons per squad, homers and being led by a top end librarian at 1850 points....

at 3,000 points i would expect a bit more.

It seems obvious enough that the DA did take some hits. But what I am hearing from a lot of folks is that if a list isn't optimal then it just won't work at all.

That's kinda stupid. Do you all drive ferrari's to work? No! Then anything else just won't work. No, a Corolla will not get you to work, Can't happen. Sheesh.

How about stretching our tactical knowledge beyong merely making a strong list and try to make the DA work. Or is that too much to ask? Is that above our collective tactical ability? If it isn't dropping termies, iron warriors or siren we just CAN'T figure out how to make it work?

The DA list is NOT even nearly as powerful as others. But what about in an objective game or grabbibg table corners? Having up to 12 scoring units in your troops should count for something. As we often use drop pods as cover and to close lines of fire can't we also do that with the cheaper rhinos? The things are worth at least a turn of moveable terrain. Losing a 30 some point rhino to a lascannon is worth it if that shot would have taken out a 40 point terminator.

Come up with some ideas.

ender502

It's more that: "If a list isn't decent, it won't work for me."

If you can't hang against even half-assed tournament armies, why bother?

This list can do one type of list that is essentially the same as a vanilla marine list, but not quite as good.

That isn't enough to make a codex worthwhile to me.

I think it's safe to say that other than the mechanized/shootie type list, every other DA build is a sack of crap incapable of beating down your little brother's foot slogging dark eldar.

Hope you never get beat by them...

I can tell you with certainty I will never lose a game to the new dark angels that doesn't involve me rolling d4s.

I have come up with two lists and two lists only. A Ravenwing/Deathwing combo or a mechanized list involvoing cheaper Rhino's, Razorbacks, and Predators. Both lists after playing and number crunching are still sub par with equivalent lists taking from the generic Space Marine dex. Believe me I have tried because I am one of those personality types who likes to make impossible things possible. I hope to be presently suprised and see someone achieve success with the new DA dex. I could possible see a mechanized build rising up but I doubt it.

Wow, this is all very exciting...

As someone who doesn't even own the codex yet, I feel the need to take up this challenge. Somebody buy me the book, and any minis I would need to add in (assuming my opponent would be unoffended by blue dark angels for the sake of debate), and I will take anyone on in a 1500 point alpha level cleanse.

Come on, buy me stuff so I can beat you with it...

Good luck with that one, sparky.

If you build a DA list and beat a 1200pt Therion list with it I'll eat my hat.

So just buy you the whole army and gosh you'll beat me with it. Ristrict the game to Alpha level cleanse to boot. Sounds like a great deal to me. Sir, Bolter and Chainsword need your posts back.

A sense of humor is a rare commodity 'round these parts.

Looks like someone's hard at work decreasing the clue supply as well.

This is the one reason I'm bummed about deploying in a couple weeks. I'm building a DA army, but I won't have it done for the Baltimore GT. I'll have to use my Eldar instead. I'll take the handicap. Heck, I do it now with non optimized lists and do just fine.

Posted By Longshot on 03/30/2007 9:52 AM
I can tell you with certainty I will never lose a game to the new dark angels that doesn't involve me rolling d4s.

The anonymous internet allows all to be the best generals ever! Me? I have never lost a game. No list can beat me. I have a stratagem to destroy anyone. Yeah, and i've also won every Golden Demon ever. All those guys holding the trophies bought the mini's from me already painted... And maybe you'd like to meet my wife.. Morgan Fairchild! Who i've seen naked!

The right circumstances and the right rolls can beat any list.. No matter how tooled up it may be. Saying that we will NEVER lose against a particular list is kinda silly.

ender502

Too late; he's stuck his neck out already.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

Mechanised doesnt work, because what the Codex gives it takes away. I run a Razorback mounted Marine army. I built the army this way for fun, and because I think that marines should have a low model count and lots of toys as befitting an elite force. I expect to get spanked for it, but it is suprisingly effective.

A Razorback neatly contains a six man squad ot a five man command team with character. With the exception of the Command squad and maybe one tac squad with fist the passengers and ride never mix. Think of them as tracked turrets backing up shooty squads. Despite being entirely mechanised the army is not for assault.

Now I can now have a much needed 20pt discount on razorbacks if I choose DA. Though I also have only five man squads, no heavy weapon and mandatory sergeants all round. Yes I can take combat squads and a Razorback, but I refuse to use my turrets as transports (except for objective grabbing and spcial forward deployments). All in all I would lose valueable firepower, size optimisation a ton of points. DA mechanised, no thankyou.

For me the only build is Ravenrush. ake three or four 3 man bike units attacks bikes and maybe tornados if you want them. Scout thebikes forward and drop deathwing a further 6" forward from that. Done right your termies are ready for a second turn assault. If you dont get first turn you will take casualties from your bikes (rapid fire range) but if you have enough enough will survive. If you get first turn you are golden.

In either case shoot with your termie assault cannon, and then pile in your bikes (suicidally if needed) to block LOS to your termies with close combats. This should let your lighning claws get into play on turn two. They should be able to assault targets as far up to within 6" from the opponents table edge. Not bad for termies.

The second wave of termies carry heavy flamers, and are dropped very close to the action. The core of the army is either Belial led termies, or podding tacticals. I see no need for a firebase with this type of army.

I am not sure as yet how I would handle a super mobile army, but Ravenrush works well against static deployments like Tau or Guard easily enough. Ravenrusgh works, but is an eggs in one basket approach, and only the versatiklity of the Ravenwing contingent prevents it from beinmg a one trick dog. You get a lot of mobility with your army to begin with, but as you deploy Deathwing they act as anchor points for your army, and force you to focus. This is what makes DA interesting, far more tactical than other Codexes, a finess list.
This is why I like to codex, but 40K is sadly not a tactical game beyond choosing your focus of army list, and therefore DA fails to deliver.




I would love to try a Ravenrush army with mechanised shooty tacticals/devastators for friendly games at 3000pts. The DA codex is strong on versatility that way, but sadly weak on costings.

Longshot- Brought a smile to my face. We need more humor here.

I'm building a DA army, but I've discovered I really need to decide on either shooty; mechanized or fast. The points are too prohibitive to mix it up.

Three Devastator Squads with 3 Razorbacks has a lot of appeal. I can get 15 heavy weapons and 9 seperate units out of just 3 Force Org slots. However, it costs a good deal and I have a very hard time justifying the Ravenwing. Synergy has got to work and points are becoming an issue. I'll totally concede this point.

Orlanth- I haven't played against a static Tau army in quite some time. Must be refreshing. However, an Inquisitor w/ Emperor's Tarot seems to help getting 1st turn. 35 Points and a spare Elite slot. I'm seeing min size RW squads w/ Melta guns, Melta Bomb and a MM Attack Bike for the mech lists. Getting first turn against Mech Skimmer lists is where they can be hurt. If one RW squad can stop a WS, Falcon or Hammerhead, I'm happy. I'd be even more happy if the 50 point Attack Bike successfully pulls this off.

ROFLO

static tau, thats a good one

 

4th ed, new dex tau-static/footslogging tau=dead tau.

 

Mughi3 - Broadside lists still work. However that another topic.

Sarigar - I dont think you can afford the Elite slot. But as you noticed Ravenwing have enough firepower to take out enemy armour.

My Random 2 cents

The new DA Dex is a forshadow of what is to come in the SM:redux, the needing 10 men in a tact squad to get a heavy weapon, Plasmaguns at 15 points, Pods going up in price,  Tornados/Land speeders going up in price!

Mark my words its going to happen the Nerf bat shall know no mercy to the space marines and when the dust settles you will look upon the DA with new light...

Now back to your regulary scheduled forum-cast.

The only defense this codex has is "You can build a list that isn't quite as horrible as your 9 year old cousin's mandrake-heavy dark eldar."

In other words, it's indefensible. Stop it. Any time you can take your list and make it bette with the vanilla dex while retaining your concept, you're invalidating the codex. All it does is trade a lot of points for a tiny bit of tactical flexibility and a few special characters.

Some people will say, "But, the army gives me the ability to make a fluffy list with Dark Angel background, and use the special characters I know and love." That's great. But Eldar, Tau and Tyranids and Vanilla SM show that you can make a list both competitive and fluffy at the same time.

They've made plenty of competitive dexes this edition that are truth be told fairly balanced amongst each other.

Why do the random SM offshoot dexes suck? There's simply no reason for it and there's zero reason for people to be defending such crap development with phrases such as, "But I can make a list that's almost competitive," or "I saw it win a game once."

And no. Ravenrush is not good. It is horrible. The worst design of the dex by far, other than say, the 30 scout and devastators with no guns army.

There is one name of the game with this codex - lots of marines and cheap transports. 100pt tinfoil speeders, 35pt bikers, and 250pt terminator squads with one assault cannon can bite my arse.

Try playing Ravenlush against a real terminator army like, say, Mauleed's pods or Lysander, and let me know who comes out on top.

Last edition subcodices were basic marines with boosts. This edition GW learned. Now its basic marines with boosts and drawbacks. OH NOOOOEE!

Its not too hard to make a competitive list from codex DA. Simply start with stuff that got boosted, add stuff that complements the powerhouses and avoid stuff that got nerfed.

DA step by step:

1. Powerhouses:

- Take 2-3 Predator Destructor with HBs.

- Take that HQ on a Landraider-Speeder guy.

2. Stuff to complement these:

- Take 1-6 of 5 Marines with Plasmagun, Powerweapon Vet. and a naked Rhino + 5 Man with Lascannon.

- Take single Speeders with MM and Flamer.

Take these and you get a strong all comers army that can deal with any opponent. The MM speeders are slightly worse then 80 point Tornados, but do benefit a lot from all the mobile cover your rhinos (and preds) can provide. Also you saved quite some points on the Predators allready.

Rhino-sniping might become quite popular: You leave a small gap between two advancing rhinos so that your hanging back lascannon can only see an opponents special weapon trooper.

These gaps can be used by Speeders as well to minimize returnfire to the fragile crafts.

Finally you can have your 5 man units jump out and rapidfire through such gaps, while being protected by the rhinos from enemy charges. Think of a wild west corral here.

For flavor one could ad a few bikes and a single terminator unit.

Anyone who thinks the DA can still be competive needs to play the chaplin in term armor game.

Take a Chap in term armor and say he's a DA chap with stormbolter oh boy 3 attacks... Now make him a normal Sm chap in term armor with stormbolter 4 attacks all the same rules and less points!

The problem is all the restricions and being nickled'n dimed to death. Every time you write up a DA list you can re-write the list with the SM normal dex and gain 100-150 points back in a 1500 point army.

And as for this redo of the SM codex... it's been confermed allready that the dex isn't coming out for awhile/being worked on. So don't hold your breath waiting for that book.

And Raider, There are no boosts in this codex aside from a few of the special hq's.
If you point out free bolt pistions I'll be happy to point out where people with a pistol and a bolter cannot fire and charge under RAW.  The codex needs(like all of them) an FAQ to fix a few things and maybe open up some options again.

Posted By ender502 on 03/31/2007 11:52 AM

And maybe you'd like to meet my wife.. Morgan Fairchild! Who i've seen naked!

...yeah....thats the ticket....

The Pred destructor got a boost. He got quite a bit cheaper. And the thing has been in winning lists for the old price.

Now consider that he is a great counter to Landspeeders, MeQs in cover, everything with 4+ save, light tanks etc...

Add that hes mobile and has an AV13 front.

These things are undercosted, extremely versatile and(!) durabel.

The only thing you miss are a few guns versus heavy tanks and AP2, like Meltas and Lascannons. Both are not that hard to get for DAs.