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I find the oposit to be true. If you beat someone with a normal list they think its ok and your running a normal list (or as normal as 6-9 oblits can be. But if you beat them with an underpowerd army they acuse you of being a gimic army and docking your soft scores.

Do you play with crackheads? That is the exact opposite of what I've seen since I got into the game. That reasoning astounds me.

Not defending it, just what I have seen.
The same goes for new armies such as necrons and grey knights being called overpowered (with the obvious exception)

It would be easier to just say you get docked on soft scores if you win.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 03/22/2007 9:57 AM
It would be easier to just say you get docked on soft scores if you win.

QFT

I still hold out hope that there are some good strong lists that can be made from the Dark Angels. Looking at the codex again I think you can make a good list by sticking with the "bargains" that are there. Mainly Plasma Cannons, Razorback, and Destructors. What about the below list?

Company Master w/ 2 lightning claws 130

3x Tac Squad (10) w/ 1 plasma gun, 1 Plasma Cannon, Power Sword, and Razorback 260x 3 = 780

Ravenwing bikes (3) w/ 2 melta guns, multi-melta attack bike 190

2 Land Speeders w/ multi-melta 130

1 Land Speeder w/ multi-melta 65

Devestator Squad (10) w/ 4 Plasma Cannons 265

2x Preditor w/ auto cannon,2 hvy bolters 95 = 180

Total: 1750

This can have 14 scoring units by splitting the tacs, devs, and Ravenwing. Has 7 plasma cannons, 7 heavy bolters, 4 multi-meltas, 2 auto cannons, 3 plasma guns, and 2 metla guns. It has a little Hth in the split tac squads and the commander who could join one of the squads. Deepstriking termies beware because of the plasma cannons. Escalation has all seven plasma cannons on the board, but no dedicated armor killing, though the p. cannons can do some light work if needed.

I just see that many marine armies will be hurt by this list since it has great AP killing, while the templates and and vehicles will seriously hurt a swarm army. It even has its mobile elements. I see Zillanids being a problem since this list would only kill slightly over one Carni a turn and that drops big time as the nids start shooting (duh).

The Wraith

Posted By IntoTheRain on 03/22/2007 9:57 AM
It would be easier to just say you get docked on soft scores by players who are themselves poor sports if you win.

Fixed your typo.

My suggestion: Find better opponents.  Even at tournaments, the local play environment generally determines the quality and sportsmanship of the players. 

Posted By the_wraith on 03/23/2007 5:47 AM
I still hold out hope that there are some good strong lists that can be made from the Dark Angels. Looking at the codex again I think you can make a good list by sticking with the "bargains" that are there. Mainly Plasma Cannons...

This is your error.  I like your reasoning and your list otherwise, but Plasma Cannons are inherently poor in v4 due to the requirement to put the hole in the template over a model’s base, as well as the removal of infantry screening (which actually gave people an incentive to bunch some units into base contact).  An opponent playing even marginal attention to unit spacing can easily prevent you from getting multiple hits.  The only times you will generally get multiple hits will be against Deep Strikers, Necrons piling out of a Monolith, or occasionally units squeezing into a small piece of terrain for cover. 

 

A 5pt savings vs a Lascannon for a weapon which rarely gets to use its single advantage, and is always an inferior choice against any vehicle or any creature T6 or higher, is a false economy.  I’d suggest putting no more than one or two Plasma Cannons in any given list for fluffiness and to take advantage of those above-mentioned tactical situations if they come up. 

Mannahnin, I agree that V4 hurt the blast weapons, but I have found that being able to move the blast marker's hole around on the base usually will allow me one to two partials. Also, I have found most people start the game with good spacing, but as they move units, they start grouping together. Still, I could easily adjust the list by giving the Company Master a power weapon instead of the LCs and replace the plasma in the tac squads with lascannons. I still like a few blast weapons just to keep my opponent spread out some.

The Wraith

After playing yesterday, I unloaded my Dire Avengers out the back of their Wave Serpent. I had to withstand a round of 4 Frag Missiles in the following turn. While I suffered very little damage, I was actually thinking how a Plasma Cannon would have prevented me from ever getting into that position with the Avengers. One or two in an army definitely has merit. Sammael having one that can move 12" and still fire should be one of the mandatory Plasma Cannons.

I have a Dev Squad with 4 Plasmas in my army.

They're very hit-and-miss. Some games they'll pulzerize the core of the opponent's army, other games they'll overheat, miss and plink off individual models.

It's a gamble taking them.

Right now, I've got one in the my current DA build; Sammael. Ever since the change to the Salamanders (who could get Signums in their Dev Squads, 3rd edition), I wouldn't run 4 in a Dev Squad either. I agree that is a big gamble.

Right now, Sammael seems to be the best suited for it. Mobile heavy weapon who can wait for Deep Strikers (5 Terminators is pretty much on full hit and 4 partials if it is a 5 man unit).

I just had my first chance to read through the codex yesterday and think the list has potential, just not spam potential.  It seems like the all Ravenwing Army is more viable than it was before, but the all Deathwing Army got neutered.  The new psychic powers struck me as being very useful for a Librarian arriving via Ravenwing/Deathwing strike.  Granted, the Hellfire power is not reliably devastating, but the Librarian and his Deathwing backup could be placed on the board Turn 1 and put out a respectable amount of firepower even without the 2nd Asscan.  It is possible to put him in a position where he will have several chances to make good use of the Hellfire power.  Half the time it will be abe to kill MEQ's without armor saves.  Combine this sort of hammerfall with concentrated fire from divided devastators, tac squads split between aggressively postured HB razorbacks teams and plas/plas or las/plas stationary squads,  land speeders, small groups of bikers turbo boosting willy nilly, with the odd attack bike thrown in.  I think this army has the potential to be a real headache for mech skimmer armies and several other competitive builds..

If everything in the DA army did not cost 10 to 20 points more per model I would agree.

The codex nickles and dimes you to death like taxes, you end up paying more points for less.

I've been thinking of a da army using ravenwing plus one squad of dw termies that have two hq's attached to deathwing strike lately. But when you buy term armor for a chaplin or libarian, they loose an attack! Models in Term armor need to have term honors again. Not only that, a 3 wound  da chaplin in term armor costs 15 points(20 more if not in term armor)! It gains no special ability over a normal SM chaplin, and it only has 3 attacks with no way to get more.

The units are too expensive and too weak to just shove infront of an enemy army.

The army just flat out sucks. No two ways about it.

Although I agree that Dark Angels are weaker than Vanilla marines, I do love the rules for Ezeikel. Mind worm would work great on Canifexes and Hive tyrants in a Nidzilla list, which is becoming common.

I thought Mind Worm was great too.... Untill I saw it counts as a heavy weapon shot.

I finally got my copy of the codex. If you were already playing mechanized, it's not awful. I took the tournament army I used most recently (December) and converted it over as directly as possible:

From 1850 the list wound up at 1855, two six man tac squads had been turned to a single ten, an eight man assault squad went to five, I lost three models net, one lascannon, one plasmagun, and 1A and blades of reason on my chaplain. In return I got Frag and Krak everywhere, two vet sgts I don't realy need (but who do help with Target Priority rolls) and the use of the combat squads rule- for three tac squads and a dev squad. Honestly, it's playable. If I drop Extra Armor from my vehicles, I'll actually wind up 55pts under, instead of 5 pts over.

If I actually modify my list to account for the rules, it's in better shape. If I drop my (now) 165pt 3-Las Pred and either the Dread or the Speeder, I can afford a second 10 man Dev squad with 2 Las and 2 HB. If it's the Dread, that leaves me only 15pts shy of a ten model assault squad. Not bad.

More list analysis in the following Army Lists thread:

http://dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/14/view/topic/postid/151375/Default.aspx

   I know it wasn't totally effective, but I have always played my Dark Angels with veteran sergents and 10 man Squads (except for the devistor sqaud in a razorback).

   I just always thought that it looked better that way, even if I did suffer a couple more defeats. So, as a whole I do like the Dark Angels codex.

   The one thing I hate is the absence of an armory. I really like being able to give my characters artificer armor, which I now can't. Plus I hate it that techmarines are not independent characters.

I was just glad my local FLAGS was cool enough to exchange my copy (DA Codex) for other GW products which I put toward another Fex for my bug list.

Posted By Lemartes on 03/27/2007 1:23 PM
I was just glad my local FLAGS was cool enough to exchange my copy (DA Codex) for other GW products which I put toward another Fex for my bug list.

best idea in this thread.

I can't stop myself from posting another substance free rant about how crappy the DA Codex is.

There's a million reasons to hate it, but the biggest one, the one that makes me wonder if Jervis has ever even PLAYED THE DAMN GAME, is the way all the ICs have 3A and no option to buy Term Honors. Why? Has anybody in the history of 40K EVER fielded an IC without Terminator Honors? Or, at least, anybody who isn't slowed/Jervis?

The smart thing to do would be to just give them all Terminator Honors, roll the cost into their total, and move on.

I used to sneer at the "they're dumbing it down" crowd. It's getting to the point where I can't anymore, because they're plainly correct.

Jervis: Listen up, 'guvnah.' You don't need to make the rules simpler, you need to make them less idiotic. You gave Bolt Pistols to every Dark Angel, ostensibly so they can shoot and assault, and yet the rulebook says, by the RAW, that they can't if they're "carrying" a Bolter. The issue isn't complexity. It's quality. You're just making simpler crappy rules.

Don't forget that even when you buy a chap or librian term armor they loose an attack, as they loose a bolt pistol and the DA term armor does not give term honors.

These guys just have no clue, they remind me of the people who wrote the 4th edition tyranid codex. In the White Dwarf battle report before the Tryanid codex came out they said "we took vennom cannons to destory land speeders because they are open topped"  What the heck??!?! First off speeders aren't open topped and vennom cannons allways glance anyway!

except for the fact that they are immune to it because they are synapse creatures.

read how mind worm works then read the synapse rule in the nid dex

 

:|

are you outta your flippin mind samwise?

ravenwing got nutered just as bad as DW if not worse. jervis had them both re-written in such a way that niether of them make good stand alone armies but are rather only facets of a general battle company force or have to work together as per fluff.

it is still the same small number of models, still just as fragile, costs more points, lost most of its skills and now lacks the firepower balancer that made it an effective stand alone force. most of my RW is not boxed up in the closet.

 

 

I just watched a 3000pt game the other day between Dark Angels and Black Legion. The Dark Angels where primarily Death Wing. 4 Term Squads, 2 LRC's, 2 IC's with Term Armor, and 3 Dreads. Only thing not Deathwing was a 10 Man squad of Tac marines in a Pod.

The Black Legion got raped in ways that would make a Japanese business man weep.

The DA player in our group has only lost one game so far, and that was to my Codex Marine army. The list is far from neutered. From what I've seen, it's more a players problem if he can't handle the army, not the books problem.

Clearly the fact that you witnessed Dark Angels (with two LRCs) beat 'Black Legion' in a 3000pt random game at your 'local store' must mean that Dark Angels aren't nerfed. Because of the information you just brought us all the stupid rules that have been pointed out in this thread now suddenly changed to good rules and all the points inefficient units transformed into cheese. Or, not. What kind of slow was controling the Chaos army? What kind of an army did he play? If he didn't use Siren OR Iron Warriors he was already playing his army well below its potential. I don't even want to ask what his unit choices were or how he played his army because I already know.

Wow, that was harsh.

The point I was raising is that the "stupid rules" as you put it, do not fail at all in practice.

"If he didn't use Siren OR Iron Warriors he was already playing his army well below its potential."

Or you mean, he wasn't cheesing it to the extreme. The Chaos list was a strong build, but I'm not going to bother going into it. Won't matter, since it's obvious your one of those gamers who has to see an Army having a cheese list to be any good.

Posted By djones520 on 03/28/2007 3:49 AM
4 Term Squads, 2 LRC's, 2 IC's with Term Armor, and 3 Dreads. Only thing not Deathwing was a 10 Man squad of Tac marines in a Pod.

I don't see how anyone could lose to that list even if they were trying. 

32 models at THREE THOUSAND POINTS

You have no business being in a tactics forum if you find that a powerful list.  Or if you think dark angels got a buff. 

At 3000 points I can field a Lascannon for each one of those models with my Guard...

It would probably be a one-sided game unless I decided to kill each model with a particular designated Lascannon with no repeats.