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wight_widow wrote: Like Nuglitch says, it's not like they technically promise anything besides pieces of paper and lumps of plastic,

Err. no. They promise a game.

E.g.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/ wrote:you can re-enact exciting battles on the table top, fighting your opponents' armies to see who is the greatest general

That's more than just pieces of paper and lumps of plastic.

You're saying that when you go to the movie theatre all the theatre promises you is a seat to sit in for an hour and a half. That's missing the point. If the theatre didn't show a movie you'd be entitled to your money back, and you'd certainly have cause to complain if GW's products didn't enable you to re-enact exciting battles on the table top, fighting your opponents' armies to see who is the greatest general.

@Asmodai: well did they promise a GOOD game? or a game that anyone over the age of 12 would enjoy? (no disrespect to any of our younger posters, but I'm sure you all know precisely what I'm talking about) did they promise a game with replay value, or that the piece you bought for a hundred dollars when it was broken wouldn't be nerfed in the next edition? or that they wouldn't nerf your whole army in an attempt to get you to buy another one? (here's to you, stealer shock players) It doesn't matter, legally and ethically, whether you FEEL ripped off - if they didn't ACTUALLY rip you off, that's life in the big city. Ditto the theater. If I paid to see,ooh, I dunno, Waterworld, or Electra in the theatre I might FEEL ripped off. But a movie was promised and a movie shown, and having paid my ticket I can't very well go and demand a refund on my time for having my life wasted with (obscenity).

If you don't like it don't play. The good parts of the GW product are the sculpts and (for those who like pulp SF*/80s metal culture) the fluff. The only way they'll get the message is when they don't sell rulebooks and Codices any more. A poster here (whose ID I cannot reccolect) summed it up nicely: the best way to make 40k better is to play War Machine. Alternatively, take HBMC's route (again no disrespect intended) and throw out anything you disagree with when playing in house - 28mm SF games are very fun when you don't actually use GW's rules.

Trying to get GW to listen to us humble consumers and potential customers while continuing to make use of the products about which we complain is a dead end. According to basic + business logic, if a customer buys a product, they must have wanted it. If people truly did not like GW games, they would not play them. Hence, either a whole bunch of people have been hypnotized into wasting their money, or lots of people ENJOY (poor) games. If you don't like (poor) games, don't play 40k.

Frankly, even the argument that they're good for the younger demographic isn't all that great, now that Hasbro affiliates are starting to push the prepainted stuff. Wargaming will get its new recruits with or without GW, from the products of other corporations or from the grassroots. We've been around as a hobby at least since H.G. Wells wrote Little Wars, and we'll be around as a hobby long after GW's investors have yanked their money in search of greener pastures. The one thing we can't do is let a bunch of accountants and (sexual profanity implied) artists wreck our space for fun, 'cause these are OUR games, not THEIRS. They just happen to make things that we might buy.

* another acknowledgement I really ought to make - that's not my choice of words. I want to credit Nurglitch but it may have been beef - I really can't recall.
+ some might say skewed, but whichever it is it's the variety used by GW

wight_widow wrote:did they promise a GOOD game?

a game that anyone over the age of 12 would enjoy?

If you don't like it don't play.

either a whole bunch of people have been hypnotized into wasting their money, or lots of people ENJOY (poor) games.

these are OUR games, not THEIRS. They just happen to make things that we might buy.

They promised as good of a game as possible, and by most measures, they generally deliver.

There seem to be an awful lot of 13-and-overs out there...

If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya...

Or a whole bunch of people enjoy a good game that only a vocal handful dislike.

If they're OUR games, who actually owns the Copyright and IP?

Seriously, if you don't like 40k's rules, it's a free country. Create your own game with your own ruleset. HMBC and his team have been at it for a year. If you do better, please do so. Privateer demonstrated that there is room for more than one strong player, coming out of nowhere. So go for it!