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Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Remind me again how many times the GW cheerleaders have been right? Zero?

Polonius wrote:I voted Yay. The rules clear up a few things, and seem slightly tighter. The elimination of mandatory area terrain will probably be replaced by voluntary designation of area terrain. The game in general seems more dynamic, for lack of a better word, with infantry running, scouts flanking, and deepstrikers bopping all over the map. Tanks become pillboxes while transports got less awful. A few things that were universally considered subpar (snipers, bikes, footslogging assault units, and Troops selections in general) got better.

If properly supported with FAQs (both to the main rules and codices) this edition could be a really good thing.

Is it just me, or do these rules seem like they would work better for smaller games? Is 1500 the new 1850?

Playing with the new Codex's, they generally are much more balanced at 1500 Points. The exceptions to this, Nidzilla & Mech Eldar, are subsequently going to be balanced at 1500 Points under the new rules because at 1500 Points those lists don't get a whole lot of troops.

As much as people are thinking the new Orks are going to be this death machine in 5th Ed, they haven't run 1500 points of them, where you really start to run into problems in 4th Ed, let alone 5th Edition's rumored rules where their most effective anti-tank goes out the bloody window.

There isn't even a reason to take tanks in 5th, so its not something I would worry about.

Even if someone did, just take them out in CC. Stormboyz will hit their lines on turn 2, and the rest of the models will hit turn 3 at the latest. If they run it away, its not shooting anyway so who cares. Skimmers are neutered to the point that you don't even have to worry about them in 5th. (maybe hammerheads might pose a problem, but tau are going to be forced to the ground in 5th, so they will probably stick with broadsides)

JohnHwangDD wrote:

dietrich wrote:It sounds like we'll see Daemons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, and Necrons by the end of 2009 (any maybe something will sneak in there too) with Fifth Edition and Codex: Planetstrike also being released.

That sounds like too much for 1 year, especially as there is usually a lull before the new edition releases. I'd bank on a maximum of 4 Codices + the new edition & Planetstrike.

End of 09 not 08, so nearly two years away.

Personally, I like the direction of the game. I think it's got a lot more potential, both with the codex releases and 5th edition rumors, than it did a year ago. It's still not a perfect game, and if the fluff wasn't so strong and the game so popular, I might not play, but I'm at least liking how things are looking.

Good Point Voodoo.

To a degree, every current top army is getting nerfed to a varying degree: terminator spam, falcons, nidzilla, and mech Tau. the current wild card is going to be Orks: they seem good, 5th seems to make them better. GW has a nasty habit of cutting too deep, so it's possible that Orks will be the overpowered book for a few years. Unlike the old powerlists, though, this army has a genuine weakness or two.

And that's, I think why Nidzilla and Falcondar players are garnering so little sympathy on the web. Yeah, they're lists got donkey stomped, but they weren't just good: they were unavoidably good. There was literally nothing a Necron army could do against Zilla, or Ig against Falcondar.

While I'm not exactly preparing for unparalleled awesomeness in the new 40k metagame, I think it will be an improvement.

IntoTheRain wrote:There isn't even a reason to take tanks in 5th, so its not something I would worry about.

Even if someone did, just take them out in CC. Stormboyz will hit their lines on turn 2, and the rest of the models will hit turn 3 at the latest. If they run it away, its not shooting anyway so who cares. Skimmers are neutered to the point that you don't even have to worry about them in 5th. (maybe hammerheads might pose a problem, but tau are going to be forced to the ground in 5th, so they will probably stick with broadsides)

Leman Russ's in 4+ Cover shooting pie plates all game isn't something that you think will be done?

Especially considering that everyone is so concerned with this horde of Troops rushing at them, you don't think 3 S8 AP3 Pie plates where all partials are hits is something IG players will take?

3 Whirlwinds are the same deal, especially with screening being back, indirect fire with a tiny minimum range sounds good to me.

Hammerheads are still great tanks, and are very survivable even in 5th Ed rules. It's got a Pie plate, can move 6" and fire everything (including four 24" No LOS S5 Shots).

Fire Prisms are still pretty good, also give you pie plates, including AP3 ones if you combine them, and Holofield tanks are STILL good and resistant to damage, especially at long range.

Heck Preds become pretty decent, especially Annihilators with 3 Lascannons in 4+ Cover. For the Firepower that tanks can put out, and the fact that you can give them 4+ cover, easily, why WOULDN'T you take tanks?

Defilers can walk into terrain for the cover save, and shoot their ordinance, and again get that magic 4+ Woods Save now. They're tall enough to use LOS to not have models hiding behind a screen be partially obscured by other models in front of them, so they theoretically can shoot over the screen, or walk up onto a hill/building/cover to see over them.

Battlewagons bring those AP3 pie plates, still screen other units or vehicles pretty well (trukks), and can use a Mek in one to give all three the Obscured bonus when run in a tight formation. AV14 with a 5+ save against all Glances or Pens is pretty good don't you think?

Vindicators aren't as attractive, but give one a Dozer Blade (mandatory in the new rules practically), and it can move around and get pie plate shots off.

Seriously, all tanks got much more survivable in the new edition except Holofield Grav Tanks. AV14, using cover, is amazing.

The difference is that now they're going to be there to support their armies, not actually BE the army.

Polonius wrote:Good Point Voodoo.

To a degree, every current top army is getting nerfed to a varying degree: terminator spam, falcons, nidzilla, and mech Tau. the current wild card is going to be Orks: they seem good, 5th seems to make them better. GW has a nasty habit of cutting too deep, so it's possible that Orks will be the overpowered book for a few years. Unlike the old powerlists, though, this army has a genuine weakness or two.

And that's, I think why Nidzilla and Falcondar players are garnering so little sympathy on the web. Yeah, they're lists got donkey stomped, but they weren't just good: they were unavoidably good. There was literally nothing a Necron army could do against Zilla, or Ig against Falcondar.

While I'm not exactly preparing for unparalleled awesomeness in the new 40k metagame, I think it will be an improvement.

Orks are going to be sick, they are in 4th with the new book, IMO, a top tier list that can actually be a foil to Nidzilla and Mech Eldar as we generally know them.

They have foils now though. Play the horde Ork army vs. Mech IG and just prepare to lose. Too many AV targets, too many guns, and 3 Pie Plates makes life terrible as a horde player, even now, let alone when all partials are hits. I ran against 3 Pie Plates, 2 Hounds, and a bunch of Chimera's plus Las/Plas squads with a horde and it just didn't end well. Imagine what that many targets can do in the new edition, with cover saves to help the vehicles stay alive.

3 Whirlwind armies now are a problem. Just about anything with Templates. Tau are hard, but are actually very beatable through completely brute force tactics. I can ensure the delivery of a Warboss to the "hiding spot" of Crisis suits because of the IC rules, and while the Hammerheads are scary, they still have to hit with that pie plate, and I can space for limited effectiveness on the Tau's part, and since the Lootas are there, once the Hammerheads come out to play they start getting Glanced to the ground. In 5th Ed, Glancing Hammerheads doesn't do a whole lot, and Lootas work like Necrons and Venom Cannons - Glance a bunch till it dies. S7 just got a whole lot less appealing as Anti-tank since AV13 doesn't look so fragile anymore. Especially with cover and more forgiving tables.

People need to PLAY with the new Orks a lot to see just how strong or weak they are.

"3 Whirlwinds are the same deal, especially with screening being back, indirect fire with a tiny minimum range sounds good to me."

I remember back in 3rd, 3 Whirlwinds was considered the ultimate in cheese.

Then they got a 10 point price bump and suddenly they became worthless. I never quite understood the logic there.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with your assessment of tanks. If defensive weapons were S5, the new tank rules would be just about perfect.*



* Well no, perfection is a high mark. They'd be very, very good though.

Does any of that matter when your in CC by turn 2?

I don't care if they knock out 3 twenty man squads turn 1. (they won't) You would still have 50 models in cc on the next turn. Pie plates have never been the end all of orks, and no partials isn't going to change that when you consider how obscenely fast orks are now.

Why wouldn't people take tanks? Because they die horrible to every list in the game. Powerfist against rear armor sounds pretty simple to me.

And any tank that didn't rely on 1 large powerful gun got nerfed badly, not just Falcons. Tanks that rely on their one big gun are now pillboxes that are extremely easy to flank with the improved Kommandos.

The bottom line is that there is no reason to play anything but marines or orks in 5th.

I just don't get this idea that tanks will be utterly worthless. Other people (Therion) are saying they will become unstoppable killing machines. Someone must be wrong.

I also don't get that the entire Ork army will be in charge range at the end of turn 1. I just don't see that it can be done, as you set up more than 24 inches apart.

I think people are missing how much more powerful RF has got with the new shooting rules. The point blank fire from a decent size unit (10+ troops) is going to have a considerable effect.

Asmodai wrote:"3 Whirlwinds are the same deal, especially with screening being back, indirect fire with a tiny minimum range sounds good to me."

I remember back in 3rd, 3 Whirlwinds was considered the ultimate in cheese.

Then they got a 10 point price bump and suddenly they became worthless. I never quite understood the logic there.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with your assessment of tanks. If defensive weapons were S5, the new tank rules would be just about perfect.*

I think it had more to do with better options appearing than whirlwinds getting worse. Destructors become awesome for only 25 points more, and could claim objectives. Units couldn't be screened, so you can shoot anything you can see, eliminating 20-30% of the value to indirect fire. AS vehicles in general become more common, the usefulness of 4 ML devestators increased.

For more or less the same reasons, we'll see the return of WW. Preds can't move and shoot to any effect. Devastators can't shoot through any friendly or enemy units, so they're less good outside of sheer anti-tank, and las-plas are still the best at that. Just theoryhammer, of course, but it doesn't take much of a boost for make a unit a slightly better choice, and then copycat syndrome kicks in.

If you are a seriously competitve player, and you believe in maths and run the figures and find that a particular unit has a 1% advantage, that is the unit to play.

Of course there is always tactics and luck.

Whirlwinds are going to be *great* for CC defense.

Oh, noes! The S5 AP*4* Whirlwind template scattered back into Close Combat, and caught a couple Marines in Power Armour - too bad for those Orks they're fighting all clumped up on top of each other...

Kilkrazy wrote:I just don't get this idea that tanks will be utterly worthless. Other people (Therion) are saying they will become unstoppable killing machines. Someone must be wrong.

Infantry are getting a major upgrade in maneuverability in 5th. Tanks are getting a downgrade.

Tanks are no longer scoring, while infantry still are.

And now you have the threat of infantry coming in from the sides of the boards and taking shots at the side and rear armor. (those whirlwinds are anything but safe.)


There is just no way for them to compete.

Polonius wrote:

Asmodai wrote:"3 Whirlwinds are the same deal, especially with screening being back, indirect fire with a tiny minimum range sounds good to me."

I remember back in 3rd, 3 Whirlwinds was considered the ultimate in cheese.

Then they got a 10 point price bump and suddenly they became worthless. I never quite understood the logic there.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with your assessment of tanks. If defensive weapons were S5, the new tank rules would be just about perfect.*

I think it had more to do with better options appearing than whirlwinds getting worse. Destructors become awesome for only 25 points more, and could claim objectives. Units couldn't be screened, so you can shoot anything you can see, eliminating 20-30% of the value to indirect fire. AS vehicles in general become more common, the usefulness of 4 ML devestators increased.

For more or less the same reasons, we'll see the return of WW. Preds can't move and shoot to any effect. Devastators can't shoot through any friendly or enemy units, so they're less good outside of sheer anti-tank, and las-plas are still the best at that. Just theoryhammer, of course, but it doesn't take much of a boost for make a unit a slightly better choice, and then copycat syndrome kicks in.

Thanks for the analysis. I'm currently painting up the pair of Whirlwind's I got in the Apocalypse box, so I have a vested interest.

It seems that if the enemy has a good amount of firepower, and lots of infiltrators to get the right board edge to try to destroy your tanks, they might not have much else to grab objectives with. I'm not sure that's really as scary as people make out. If your opponent is fielding Scorpions you might want to keep a unit in your backfield to deal with them (same as when fighting Miners in Fantasy), but it won't be too bad. Space Wolves and Deep Striking Guard remnants can already do the same sort of thing.

IntoTheRain wrote:Does any of that matter when your in CC by turn 2?

I don't care if they knock out 3 twenty man squads turn 1. (they won't) You would still have 50 models in cc on the next turn. Pie plates have never been the end all of orks, and no partials isn't going to change that when you consider how obscenely fast orks are now.

Why wouldn't people take tanks? Because they die horrible to every list in the game. Powerfist against rear armor sounds pretty simple to me.

And any tank that didn't rely on 1 large powerful gun got nerfed badly, not just Falcons. Tanks that rely on their one big gun are now pillboxes that are extremely easy to flank with the improved Kommandos.

The bottom line is that there is no reason to play anything but marines or orks in 5th.

CC by turn 2?

How many mobz are you going to get "up front" that are going to lead this charge?

You're going to get high run rolls on turn 1 for these front mobs, that will not block your mobs in the back from moving up to their full movement? You're going to have these models spaced out so that the templates mentioned aren't as good, and pull all this off?

And then even if you do get a good fleet roll, say 5 or 6, with one front mob, you're going to blow your load on the one shot Waaagh that you've got in order to hope you "roll high" enough to get to combat, or your entire advantage is gone.

No, the "run" isn't going to completely make the Boyz some unbeatable force. As it is now, you can take a horde of boyz, but now we use Shootas. This means all mobz can see through each other now to combine fire, this wont' happen in 5th.

By constantly running, your army is dedicated to CC, lacking lots of shooting. The troops blocking LOS is a boon to Tankbustas, but not so to Lootas.

And when your opponent doesn't deploy on the 24" line, but instead deploys further back, what do you do?

What do you do in Dawn of War missions where only 1 HQ and two troops go down to deploy and the rest come on via your own long table edge?

What about mobile opponents who will see your horde and run, run, run away?

You say Infiltrators will put Power Fists through rear armor? They come in on table SIDES, not the opponents long board edge.

Deploy centrally, and you're fine. Even if you have to go on a flank, there's a 33% chance that they won't come in on the side your tanks on. Even then, unless they can fleet, they're not hitting you with power fists. Meltas and the like might not be in half range if you deploy right, and you should be in cover, 4+ save cover now for your tanks.

And even with that, people take deepstrikers and other throw away squads to deal with stuff like that now (Suicide Command Squads, etc). How is the fact that now they have to deepstrike into difficult terrain and the fact that they need to get close to use their guns in the first place, or the fact that you can "Screen" the vehicles with troops to prevent Meltas from getting in good position to work right. or the fact that now the vehicles they've always been targeting get a cover save?

I guess my point here is that it's not going to be the be-all-end-all list in 5th to just take masses of Boyz on foot and hope to win.

Sure it'll dominate "balanced" armies, because it's an extreme list. But if your army has the tools to take it out (like say multi-Monolith toting Necrons, IG, Tau, Whirlwind Marines), then you will lose. Or you will play a Dawn of War mission, and still lose.

I'd gladly debate a lot of these points with you, but as someone who is trying to think of the "ultimate 5th Ed Ork list", I'm seeing problems running the army against a lot of arch types that will likely show up.

People, did you all miss the part where 2/3 of the missions are decided by who's got the better troups able to hold some alpha level objective?

The old adage of 'who cares what the objective is if you can just kill all the other guy's models' is going to be turned on it's head. You will simply have to have alot of good troops units to win. So guard, orks, dark angels, eldar jetbike armies, etc will be at a huge advantage.

I don't feel like getting in a long drawn out debate tonight, so I'll just say this, you can respond, and that'll be it.

Orks pick up several new toys in 5th that make them much scarier than they are right now. Yes I do feel they should go the dedicated CC route because it forces so many nasty problems that are not easily dealt with. Kommandos appearing on flanks mean your opponents deploy zone is shrunk down considerably. (especially for the important, squishy stuff - means less fire lanes for them) Grot screens are back with a vengeance. (except now they get a 5+ invulnerable save) This is on top of the already extremely powerful Lootas, Stormboyz, and basic Orks. And Orks still have no trouble fielding 130+ models at 1500 points, a very large chunk of which are scoring. Meanwhile nothing that your opponent has that can realistically take on that many Orks is.

If they charge, Slugga Boyz should, on average move 24" in 2 turns. (6" move+D6 run+6" move+D6 run+6" charge, assuming that 2D6 average out to 6") That means they should always be in assault on turn 3, and have solid chances of being there on turn 2. If your worried about them stepping on each others toes, just lead with the stormboyz. If they die, then they did there job anyway of shutting down enemy firepower until your mobs can dogpile them. (granted its not the best outcome, but trying to go through that many stormboyz gimes me headaches just thinking about it)

On top of that, Orks greatest enemy, mobile firepower lists, are effectively dead in 5th. Move and shoot vehicles are gone. And basically every mechanized list is going with it. Lists are forced to become vastly more focused on basic troops, something else that plays right into Orks hands.

I have no idea why you think ordinance is going to be that much of a deterrent. They have to concentrate them in the dead middle of the field or flanking reserves will eat them for breakfast. They still scatter, you still get a 5+ invulnerable save, and basic spacing tactics make it difficult to ever get more than a few models a shot. Plus now you hit the rear armor in CC. (which almost guarantees you will knock it out the turn you charge it)

Just as holofields were overpowered before them. Six point Orks are under costed, and they are only getting stronger in 5th.

You just admitted they need 3 turns to get into melee.

If I'm on the other side of the table, I don't need to move and shoot. All I need to do is stand and shoot for 3 turns and waste away the entire ork front line preventing them from getting to me by turn 3.

Ordinance is a GREAT deterent. 9 whirlwhind or lemun russ strikes in 3 turns alone will put HUGE holes in your advancing ork line. 30 ork mobs are going to have to maintain coherency and fit betwwen interveening terrain. 180 Ork boyz marching across the board means ordinance practcally can't miss.

Your huge Ork front line also blocks line of sight for your army, so your stuck moving models forward for 3 rounds while they have 3 rounds to use them for target practice.

Will huge mobs of cheap troops help you hold objectives ? Possibly, but it's not just ork who have cheap troops. Aside from marine armies, everyone has some sort of cheap troops choice.

6pt Ork boyz SUCK at shooting. For some reason you keep ignoring that fact like it doesn't matter. Shooting is HALF the combat in 40K, just because you want to run them into melee and ignore shooting, doesn't mean it shouldn't get factored into their cost.

Dark Eldar WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 LD8 SV 5+ 8PTS
Eldar WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 LD8 SV 5+ 8PTS
Termigaunt WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 LD5 SV 6+ 7PTS
All can Fleet EVERY turn

ork boyz WS4 BS2 S3 T4 W1 I2 A2 LD 7 SV 6+ 6PTS
Can Fleet once per game and not in the 1st turn

WS on par with DE
BS 33% accuracy verses the 50-67%
S same
T top of heap. Making S3 weapons 17% less effective and not meaning much to anything S4 or higher
W1 same
I2 slow as mollases, drawback in HTH
A2 where orks shine, extra roll is great
LD meh
SV useless against anything with AP(damn near everything), and only a 17% success rate if youget to use it

So for a 2pt difference Orks suck at shooting, have inferior armor, and go last, but are slightly tougher, against lasguns mostly, and get an extra melee attack if they survive long enough to use it.

Seems about right to me.

Incidently, I haven't finished my 5th Ork army list, but I imagine it will have 45 Lootas and 9 Lobbas.

Sure it's 900pts, 180 points less than 180 ork boyz with Zero upgrades. who isn't going to take the 6 nobs with PK @35pts each, so thats another 210pts right there

900 pts but it's 45 to 135 S7 AP4 shots that wound troops on a 2+ and 9 S5 AP5 Blast Markers I can shoot from my deployment zone. I'm pretty sure that will be enough to deal with those pesky lightly armored troop choices.

I might even have a few points left over to buy some troop choices of my own to claim objectives after the smoke clears

45 Shots BS2 means 15 should hit, 12 should wound
.33 accuracy times .83 damage rate = .27 effectiveness
D3 shots per loota @45 llotas = 90 sots per turn
90 sots per turn translates to about 24 dead boyz per turn

180 boyz - 72 caualties over 3 turns = 108
40% casualties in 3 turns

9 Lobbas, assuming 4 hits per template, at S5 vs T4
36 hits, wounding on a 3+= 18 casualties per turn

24 Deffgun casualties + 18 Lobba casualties = 42 Dead boyz per turn

42 boyz per turn x 3 turns = 126 dead boyz

180 boyz - 126 dead = 54 remaining boyz

Sure this all in a vacuum, but at least it's a vacuum that remembers that the game actually has a shooting phase.

Incindently the Lootas and Lobbas are 390 Points cheaper than the footsloggers.

I could use those points to buy 2 squads of boyz of my own to fill out the Force chart requirements, screen my lobbas, and hold objectives (1 of the 2 objective type missions is take and hold, where you need to hold an objective in your own deployment zone. ) 6 Big Shootas, 18 shots, 6 hit, 3 wound, no saves = 3 more casualties per turn, 9 over 3 turns....

45 remaining footsloggers
VS.
60 Foot Sloggers
45 Lootas
18 Gretchen

MY POINT IS, ORKS, THE SUCKIEST OF ALL SHOOTING ARMIES, CAN DESTROY 180 ORK TYPE ARMIES, FROM THEIR DEPLOYMENT ZONE.

Now is someone going to explain to me how Footsloggin orks are going to unfairly dominate 5th Edition again, with a straight face, and an explanation that doesn't involve wishfull thinking and fairy dust ?

IntoTheRain wrote:I don't feel like getting in a long drawn out debate tonight, so I'll just say this, you can respond, and that'll be it.

Orks pick up several new toys in 5th that make them much scarier than they are right now. Yes I do feel they should go the dedicated CC route because it forces so many nasty problems that are not easily dealt with. Kommandos appearing on flanks mean your opponents deploy zone is shrunk down considerably. (especially for the important, squishy stuff - means less fire lanes for them) Grot screens are back with a vengeance. (except now they get a 5+ invulnerable save) This is on top of the already extremely powerful Lootas, Stormboyz, and basic Orks. And Orks still have no trouble fielding 130+ models at 1500 points, a very large chunk of which are scoring. Meanwhile nothing that your opponent has that can realistically take on that many Orks is.

Lootas value is drastically diminished due to the screening rules. Arguably, Tankbustas are much better than them now.

The utility of Storm Boyz is questionable now, since Sluggas do get the run move, but they may have their uses with a Screen.

And Grot Screens are still useless. 30 Grots buys me 20 Boyz. They're LD7 and T2. They have no mob size rules for their models, they get enough casualties, and they run away. They're still useless from what I can see as someone who plans on making Orks as competitive as I can.

And I've pointed out a number of army lists that will easily be able to take on the Orks.

Do you think that Mech Tau are now going to just go away all of a sudden? 3 Railheads are now much tougher for Orks to deal with at range. Especially if the Orks are relying on Lootas, who can only glance the front of the Hammerhead. Those blasts are more devastating now, and don't miss - just scatter. Placed right, they will always inflict good amounts of casualties. Remember the center of the template does not have to be centered over a model any more. That's a big deal and will net you more Orks, max coherency or not.

Given your suggestion of all CC, the Ork shooting is going to be minimal at best, the suits can run around at max range, in the open practically, and keep dancing around you while firing.

Firewarriors in Devilfish will still be around, they can move 6 and fire all guns, or move 12 and fire just the SMS. They're harder to kill. Fish of Fury may be dead, but coordinated fire should see the Firewarriors work out just fine. Heck some static squads (to capture your own objectives) in cover with Markerlights should do wonders (remove cover saves for one). Deploy them far out and where the Orks have to go (your own objective) and you can concentrate and eliminate the Orks. Due to the KFF rules, the "Horde" is tied together in one spot, so if they "break off" to try and engage the outlying units, they will lose their cover saves.

And then there are the 3 Whirlwind armies, 3 Pie Plate IG with lots of pill box's (Chimera's) and troops. Use deepstrikers or light infantry to score objectives.

Eldar with 3 Fire Prisms, jetbikes to score on other objectives, Dire Avengers on their own objectives, in cover, they can do well. You just need to play right and force the horde to deal with threats from multiple directions. If the horde can't keep steam rolling one direction with all the numbers, they fall apart since one squad generally can get wiped out, and once it's below that magic 9 models, you start to see them as likely to break.

If they charge, Slugga Boyz should, on average move 24" in 2 turns. (6" move+D6 run+6" move+D6 run+6" charge, assuming that 2D6 average out to 6") That means they should always be in assault on turn 3, and have solid chances of being there on turn 2. If your worried about them stepping on each others toes, just lead with the stormboyz. If they die, then they did there job anyway of shutting down enemy firepower until your mobs can dogpile them. (granted its not the best outcome, but trying to go through that many stormboyz gimes me headaches just thinking about it)

They WILL get on each others toes. All it takes is one mob up front to flub their Run roll and all that crap you've got behind them, trying to stay at max coherency to avoid templates, just got screwed.

You want Storm Boyz? They're good no doubt, better with screens (except against indirect fire), but they cost twice as much as a normal Boy and don't score. Max size of 20 and with counter charge they will go down.

On top of that, Orks greatest enemy, mobile firepower lists, are effectively dead in 5th. Move and shoot vehicles are gone. And basically every mechanized list is going with it. Lists are forced to become vastly more focused on basic troops, something else that plays right into Orks hands.

See above what I said about the Tau. Many units still move and fire to full effect, maybe not as fast, but they still do. Many tanks can move and fire big pie plates still, which are now the #1 weapon to deal with hordes of low armor troops.

I have no idea why you think ordinance is going to be that much of a deterrent. They have to concentrate them in the dead middle of the field or flanking reserves will eat them for breakfast. They still scatter, you still get a 5+ invulnerable save, and basic spacing tactics make it difficult to ever get more than a few models a shot. Plus now you hit the rear armor in CC. (which almost guarantees you will knock it out the turn you charge it)

You need to re-read the rules.

That whole "all CC attacks hit the rear armor" is false.

You scatter, so what? You can see the front mob, that mob is going to be huge. You can place the template so the center isn't over a model, have it clip a ton, and be far enough back of this giant horde you fear so much that no matter which direction it scatters, there will be a lot of Orks under it.

And you focus on the Orks best case scenario. What about when I have to deploy 130+ models in a Table Quarter instead of the long table edge? What about when I can only place 2 Troops and then the rest of my "horde" comes in from my LONG TABLE EDGE?

You say I always get a 5+ Inv save? Focus on the unit that now has to hold the Big Mek to get that save. Kill enough models to make them run and watch him go with them.

Just as holofields were overpowered before them. Six point Orks are under costed, and they are only getting stronger in 5th.

The problem with Orks, IG, and all other horde style troops is that they either completely suck or are too good. Add a point and they start to be outclassed by MEQ's, like they were BEFORE the new Codex. Even now, before we heard anything about 5th ed, people loved Ork hordes because of Shoota Boyz, who can engage the enemy on turn 2, and are still a CC threat.

Now the Orks block their own firing lanes, and as you've said, Sluggas become an attractive choice, but one that brings limitations of not being able to really hurt the enemy unless you're in combat with it. This is a big deal since you know, stuff can run away from YOU now too, and you've only got one Fleet move to make it count.

I'm not saying Orks aren't going to be top tier. They're going to be one of the strongest lists in the game, but unlike Nidzilla and Mech Eldar before them, they have real foils. And these foils aren't all that uncommon, and will likely become more common as Orks get more popular or as people just adjust to 5th ed's rules.

The thing that will make Orks very good in 5th is that if an army doesn't account for facing them at all and doesn't take the right weapons, they will lose. Unable to cope with that many models.

But if you plan accordingly, they're not that hard to beat.

Lootas value is drastically diminished due to the screening rules. Arguably, Tankbustas are much better than them now.

I disagre about this point

Lootas are BS2 48" D3 S7 AP4 hits while Tankbustas are BS2 24" S8 AP3 Single hit, and they cost the same.
Average of a D3 is 2, BS2 hits 33% of the time, and S7&8 wound most things 2+ (83%)

Sooo,
10 Tankbustas hit 3 times and wound 2
10 Lootas hit 7 times and wound 5

Against marines, with 3+ saves, the lootas are half as effective as they were, bringing them down to Tankbusta levels.

At an additional cost Tank Bustas have Alqueda squigs, but also have the insufferable Glory Hogs rule.
Squigs are 83% accurate, +5 points each, max of 3, single shot and usable only against vehicles within 18"

As for the screening rules making the difference, I'll just shoot the screen

Polonius wrote:

I think it had more to do with better options appearing than whirlwinds getting worse. Destructors become awesome for only 25 points more, and could claim objectives. Units couldn't be screened, so you can shoot anything you can see, eliminating 20-30% of the value to indirect fire. AS vehicles in general become more common, the usefulness of 4 ML devestators increased.

For more or less the same reasons, we'll see the return of WW. Preds can't move and shoot to any effect. Devastators can't shoot through any friendly or enemy units, so they're less good outside of sheer anti-tank, and las-plas are still the best at that. Just theoryhammer, of course, but it doesn't take much of a boost for make a unit a slightly better choice, and then copycat syndrome kicks in.

Hmmm...will the much-impugned IG Mortar squads be worth their points now, with indirect more important and templates hitting everything touched? Krieg Heavy Mortars and Thudd Guns will be awesome...

Even the humble grenade launcher might not be a bad deal now: 4 move-and-shoot 24" range small blasts against Orks or horde Nids could be worthwhile...

adamsouza wrote:

Lootas value is drastically diminished due to the screening rules. Arguably, Tankbustas are much better than them now.

I disagre about this point

Lootas are BS2 48" D3 S7 AP4 hits while Tankbustas are BS2 24" S8 AP3 Single hit, and they cost the same.
Average of a D3 is 2, BS2 hits 33% of the time, and S7&8 wound most things 2+ (83%)

Sooo,
10 Tankbustas hit 3 times and wound 2
10 Lootas hit 7 times and wound 5

Against marines, with 3+ saves, the lootas are half as effective as they were, bringing them down to Tankbusta levels.

At an additional cost Tank Bustas have Alqueda squigs, but also have the insufferable Glory Hogs rule.
Squigs are 83% accurate, +5 points each, max of 3, single shot and usable only against vehicles within 18"

As for the screening rules making the difference, I'll just shoot the screen

I'm thinking about it in terms of damaging vehilces, not so much against MEQ's. Lootas are great, but now they work under the premise of "Death By Glances", which really isn't so much of a good idea anymore. Against stuff like Hammerheads, the Tankbustas can Penetrate, Lootas can't.

It's a bit of a toss up, the Orks are going to have a lot more anti-tank problems in the new edition than they do right now in 4th.

My mindset is always tends to revolve around how to defeat MEQ armies.

Your right about the tankbustas being better against vehicles. S8, Alqueda squigs, and Tankhammas make the superior choice when dealing with tough to crack vehicles.

Lootas are just better against everything else. I'd still take Lootas, and rely on the rest of my army to deal with such threats.

That's just my style of play though.

If you look at the vehicle damage rules in the 5th edition pdf going around you'll notice that vehicles can be destroyed solely by glancing hits.

All open-topped vehicles have a chance of being destroyed with every glancing hit. Ordinary vehicles have a chance of being destroyed by glancing hits from AP1 weapons. All vehicles can be destroyed by cumulative Damage such as Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized results. As such have extra weapons like sponsons and whatnot will have a defensive function.

A Leman Russ with a Battlecannon, Heavy Stubber, Lascannon, and two Heavy Bolters can be Destroyed: Wrecked after 7 glancing hits (minimum). One glancing hit for each weapon and one extra to immobilize it.

Voodoo: What do you think of the trukk horde in the new edition? 6 mobs of trukks are mobile and cheap scoring units that can pounce on any threat, and pack decent antitank if you kit them properly.
I'm using it currently and winning all my games without much difficulty, possibly because people haven't learnt how to deal with it properly. It seems to do better than the foot horde, though I'll admit I made mistakes when playing that.
In 5th they seem to take a slight hit in speed, but I think overall they remain effective.

Nurglitch: True, it is possible, but more difficult than it was.
Not a bad thing really, it's good to have some tactical challenges.

I just have to say that 1) I really liked beef's first post on the thread. If people wanted a better 40k, they would stop playing the existing one. Corporations only ever react to market pressure. 2) the comments on DE and unsupported lists paralel my feelings on the whole game and business plan. (gakky and verging on sleazy respectively - frankly dope dealers have more respect for their customers than GW) Like Nuglitch says, it's not like they technically promise anything besides pieces of paper and lumps of plastic, and no-one is forced to use the product at any time. Whether or not 5th makes 40k better or worse frankly doesn't bother me at all because Yahtzee is easier to set up and involves just as many tactics. Just my $0.02.

Some of us HAVE stopped playing 40k. I like being able
to model in plastic, but I spend more of my money on
other games.