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There are very few really cruddy units in WM or Hordes which no one ever bothers with.

If WM/H is as mature of a game as some say, then this is hard to believe. In any system, there will be advantages to exploit, and the hardcore players will gravitate to them.

How is it, you come in and argue against Pp, and have NO first hand knowelege of it, and expected to be taken seriously?


The point of PP is that EVERY faction has advantages and expliots. And everything, as long as its within the rules, legal. You can knock down your onw models, throw your own models and completely legal.

Nothing cheesy, beardy, not within the spirit...legal is legal. Illegal is not. Works well for balance.

PP constantly goes back over rules and models to try and keep things viable and balanced.....mechanics fo cygar and khador sucked ass...they came back and gave them jack marshal and made useful.

More like total volume of stuff and installed base. 40k or WFB alone has more armies than WM/H combined. Each has more players with far more stuff "invested". So I see that as the core difference in terms of support impact.

The difference is GW doesnt even try......THAT is a core difference. Tewh fact designers say they make them "good enough" and years of support inbetween books.

They dont try, not that they cant.

carmachu wrote:

If WM/H is as mature of a game as some say, then this is hard to believe. In any system, there will be advantages to exploit, and the hardcore players will gravitate to them.

How is it, you come in and argue against Pp, and have NO first hand knowelege of it, and expected to be taken seriously?

Oh, don't be silly. I've got a Cryx army and I've played tournaments and so on. I've just moved away from WM because PP broke the promise that they started with, that the games would be cheap fun skirmish games that revolved around Warcasters and Warjacks. WM pretty much lost me in the first year because they didn't stick with what they did to bring me into the game. WM turned their fun little game into a just another WFB clone. And then they made my all-Warjack, Slayer-based army non-competitive with the Seether and infantry focus.

So I don't believe that PP is "better" than GW. PP makes stuff obsolete just as fast as GW. But because they're not the "evil empire", people cut them way more slack than GW. As far as I'm concerned, they're the same.

Except the PP game engine is still a RT/2E skirmish engine. It's not nearly as refined or suitable for mass battles as GW's 40k or WFB systems.

Sure, PP fills a nice niche as an alternative. But it's really the same stuff in a different wrapper.

The difference is GW doesnt even try......

You really believe that?

Jervis tries harder than probably any other designer in the industry, because he has a harder job than any other designer in the industry. He's in charge of the industry-leading game (from a $$$ perspective), with a larger installed base of players, and more people on his back trying to drive sales from what is likely a fully-saturated base.

PP can afford to throw stuff and see what sticks. They don't have to worry about backwards compatibility or decades of rules and Fluff having been established. And they can afford to be loosey-goosey with the rules. They can just make stuff up as "errata" to change things, publish FAQs, and then charge for a new rulebook supplement. It's a hell of a model for generating constant sales churn in both rules and models.

It will be interesting when the average PP army pushes 50-100 models and people get out of the incremental mode, but move into an army mode. If PP can swing the transition, they'll come out like champs. Maybe they'll even bring me back.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, don't be silly. I've got a Cryx army and I've played tournaments and so on. I've just moved away from WM because PP broke the promise that they started with, that the games would be cheap fun skirmish games that revolved around Warcasters and Warjacks. WM pretty much lost me in the first year because they didn't stick with what they did to bring me into the game. WM turned their fun little game into a just another WFB clone. And then they made my all-Warjack, Slayer-based army non-competitive with the Seether and infantry focus.

Thank you. But you have to admit you appear to be someone who is talking like one that doesnt have any clue. That you didnt know PP constantly updates things on their site and fields questions?

You really believe that?

Jervis tries harder than probably any other designer in the industry, because he has a harder job than any other designer in the industry. He's in charge of the industry-leading game (from a $$$ perspective), with a larger installed base of players, and more people on his back trying to drive sales from what is likely a fully-saturated base.

PP can afford to throw stuff and see what sticks. They don't have to worry about backwards compatibility or decades of rules and Fluff having been established. And they can afford to be loosey-goosey with the rules. They can just make stuff up as "errata" to change things, publish FAQs, and then charge for a new rulebook supplement. It's a hell of a model for generating constant sales churn in both rules and models.

Believe it? If you have been paying ANY attention to GW over the last couple years, no they DONT try to keep things balanced...until the next edition. FAQ's that langished fo years unattended. Codex updates that lingered dead for years....(orks), the attitude of "good enough"

One person, is not the company. If he's in charge of a industry leading company...then perhaps the company should start acting like it instead of coasting on their heels like they have done for the last couple years before. Its always "what have you done for me lately"..and GW has NOT done anything for me lately. PP? I can count on to keep it active.

Decades of rules? What crack are you smoking? They do NOT worry about whats come before that much...2nd edition, hell even third is of no issue anymore. Hello....crappy chaos codex redux anyone? Traitior legions got thrown to the trash been with the last redo. Spare me the decades of rules to consider. They way they keep invaliding certain things and elevating others show that.

It will be interesting when the average PP army pushes 50-100 models and people get out of the incremental mode, but move into an army mode. If PP can swing the transition, they'll come out like champs. Maybe they'll even bring me back.

I'm content with what is now. I have one solid Hordes army, and a good WM faction. I can add incrimentally without breaking the bank.

Hope you find what yoru looking for.

I'll weigh in on the GW vs PP marketing and current strategy with their games. GW has a much better marketing program because they are more visible than PP in most areas. This is directly linked to pure GW stores in the more populace areas. PP markets their product through local gaming stores, many of which don't have or take the time to do demonstrations of WM and/or Hordes. I became familiar with Warmachine through a fellow gamer who frequented the LGS where we played 40K. From a marketing and exposure stand point, GW has more and therefore should sell more product.

The strategy the PP and GW use to develop and progress their games are vastly different. The two main reasons I like PP over GW is that they have better customer service and they update ALL the armies together. PP has official forums, which they respond to. They post updates fairly quickly on their website and those updates aren't just as ambiguous rules which generated the questions. GW trashed their archaic forums and the FAQs take months to come out. When the FAQs do come out, they're usually just as vague or make so little sense that they aren't useful (see Imperial Tech Priest Sevitors counting towards wargear).

Secondly, PP updates all the factions at the same time. This means that even if their is creep, everything creeps together. I tend agree with a previous poster that units don't become junk as much as the do with GW games with new releases. I use units from Prime, Escalation and later books in my core WM army. Each addition allows you to either keep your list the same or change things up to try or tweak your strategy. When GW releases a new edition, codex, drastic changes happen in the army which require completely retooling the army. Previously useful models are now drastically less effective, while the once bad is now awesome (see obliterators).

I'd say that if GW was running WM and PP was running 40K, I'd be a much happier 40K fan and would have never grown my WM army to the size it is. As it is, every time I think about getting a new GW army, I become ill. Everytime WM releases something new, I'm usually elated because of the value I get from their products.

I'd like to ask about the people who keep talking about "kiddies" keeping GW in business. I don't know about the GW chain stores, but there are plenty of younger gamers in my LGS, and none of them play Warhammer or 40K. I think a lot of the young blood that got into 40K with the release of LOTR has disappeared witht the fad, and I really feel that GW is marketing to them still, despite the fact that the market has dried up. Most of the 40K players I know are 18 and older, hold jobs of one sort or another, and have experience playing other games.

Also, in what way is a GW chain store a welcoming image to a new gamer. Sure, maybe a 12-16 year old would be fascinated by the store, but their income source (parent, guardian, whatever) would probably be somewhat daunted by the overwhelming nature of the stores. They don't sell ANYTHING but GW products. It's a bit much if you're new to the game, or with someone who is looking to get into it. What can you assume from a first glance? If all this stuff is for the same game, how much do they need to play? That was the first question out of parents' mouths whenI worked for GW, and it seems pretty reasonable. I really think the corporate offices would have more success NOW (as opposed to a few years ago) by shifting their focus BACK to adult gamers with disposable income and raising the quality of the products to meet the expectations of the adult gamer market. While we were dwarfed by the temporary surge in popularity among young people, adults now form a much more significant portion of GW's customer base, and I think it's something they need to recognize.

I tend to agree with the above poster in the fact that GW should shift from the 12-16 focus to the 20+ age group. There are several GW chain stores around my area, all of them are full of 14 to 18 year olds. The main reason is that the parents see the store as baby sitting service where they can drop $30 on product, leave their kid there for 2 hours while they roam the mall. This age bracket change occurred for two reasons.

The first reason the age bracket changed was because they shifted the points and qualifications for playing games in the store about 4 years ago. They moved from 1500+ point games to 500 point games on the weekends. Secondly, they also dropped the requirement of based and 3 colors for the army to be put on the table. This allowed newer players to access the game more quickly, but because of the low entry cost, the baby sitting syndrome started. Many veterans were put off because of the low points values and the new abundance of kids in the game. Don't get me wrong, some of the kids are pretty reasonable, but some are awful. Thankfully, the points for the games have been raised, but many veteran gamers have moved on to other stores or their own clubs to find games. Therefore, your left with a bunch of kids playing in the GW stores.

I think GW needs to move revise the rules so they are smoother and make logical sense. 40K in it's current formate has quite a bit to be desired as far as logical rules. I love WM over 40K for the fact that the rules, while they have some issues, flow much better and make more sense. I also think people under estimate how much a 12 year old can understand given time and GOOD guidance. Look a MTG, it's more complicated and yet many 10-14 year olds play it.

I also think GW needs to lower their prices and make up the gap in volume. They're current pricing turns many people off from buying new armies and is or has approached the point where it's no longer allowance level money to buy the product. This means veteran players aren't investing more money because they see it as too expensive and the "kiddies" are getting left out because they can buy something else to satisfy their ADD for less money or of better quality for the same money. Fantasy is pretty much non-existent in my area because of the investment needed in order to field an army. People are not willing to spend $700+ for an army when the can buy an Xbox, PS3 and several games for the same money. Just to put in perspective, $700 is about 4 YEARS of World of Warcraft. Based on the fact that I have 2 Fantasy and 2 40K armies, I could have played WoW for 16 YEARS for the same money.

GW also needs to improve their customer service. This has been gone over multiple times in the thread.

I think people need to better define "customer service." What is better customer service? Is it...

-updating FAQs?
-teaching you how to build/paint?
-trying to prevent army creep?
-teaching you how to play?
-communicating more with your customer fanbase?
-providing you with a place to play?
...etc

On some points, PP wins out. On others, GW wins out. Interestingly, I would argue that GW specializes more in getting new gamers, while PP is better at maintaining veteran gamers.

And just for the record, GW mall stores aren't designed to be veteran gaming clubs. They are designed to be recruitment/training centres for new gamers. Battle bunkers and store front locations serve veteran gamers better (bigger and more tables,) so don't be surprised when you see the mall locations crawling with kids.

Zoned wrote:I think people need to better define "customer service." What is better customer service? Is it...

-updating FAQs?
-teaching you how to build/paint?
-trying to prevent army creep?
-teaching you how to play?
-communicating more with your customer fanbase?
-providing you with a place to play?
...etc

On some points, PP wins out. On others, GW wins out. Interestingly, I would argue that GW specializes more in getting new gamers, while PP is better at maintaining veteran gamers.

And just for the record, GW mall stores aren't designed to be veteran gaming clubs. They are designed to be recruitment/training centres for new gamers. Battle bunkers and store front locations serve veteran gamers better (bigger and more tables,) so don't be surprised when you see the mall locations crawling with kids.

Not really. Anyone thats paid any attention to the boards any amount of time knows whats been talked about:

Staying ontop of the game problems: ie...FAQ updates, or hell FAQ's at all....."good enough" really isnt.

Communication with the fanbase would be nice, especially with game problems....the sticking their ear in the fingers doesnt cut it.

Updates in army books in a more timely manner....you shouldnt have 8 years for codex orks...thats criminal, considering most ork players are fairly loyal.



And the usual other items that have been mentioned.

If you believe Jervis is "in charge" and "responsible", you are sorely mistaken.

This is the problem at GW, has been for 15 years. The only accountability came with Andy Chambers.

Thankfully, all the "damage" Andy C did (tongue in cheek) will soon be undone.

Personally I can't wait for the power gaming abuses about to be unleashed upon all of you in the form of 2nd edition.

You'll never see a FAQ again, either.

GW will shout 'eff off' to all of us in a few months time.

I guess we'll just all wait and see. I figure 25 mil in debt end of this year, the old guard gone (management and designers), GW closing 50+ stores, and sales tanking completely. I could be wrong. That whole LOTD thing looked like a total cockup from the beginning, and so far it's been as successful as one could hope.

If you wanted to go out of business.

Rejoice, 5th edition is here to save us! Rules designed entirely around 'we are the designers and we are FED UP with you cocks ignoring troops and taking everything else, so eff yourself mates we'll put the screw into the Codices AND the main rules'. Top it off with a healthy dose of worldwide recession, and boy oh boy with the LOTD cash depleted...I guess we'll see just how GW gets through the year.

My accountant buddy wonders who's giving GW money, he read the annual reports and told me to sell what stock I have left. Exciting days, these.

Oh well, at least I've never had a LATD or Squats army, right?

Actually LOTR was successful...too much so that it masked all the problems.

Anecdotally, whenever I see people look at GW stuff in a
shop, they typically only really look at the LotR stuff and
tend to not notice or ignore the rest of the lines. These
people are walk-ins, and probably not going to try to game
at the store or follow the company online or convert up a
LATD army or post pictures of their minis on the Internet.

These people are new customers, so I think LOTR helped
GW out there. As far as how much these people actually
bought compared to how much GW invested in production
and design, I think the answer is they are profiting from
the investment, but not enough for a public company.

Never said LOTR wasn't successful.

It was, for the first two years.

The rest of the lines suffered, and as you pointed out the LOTR cash flow covered this up.

Better actuarial controls would have seen this immediately.

Sadly, GW dropped the ball on that one. Always has.

Which is indeed surprising for a publicly traded company.

I saw that Ork Shok Attack Gun in "painting and modelling" and was tempted to buy it. Then I noticed that it is 160% more expensive here in Canada (before taxes) than across the border. Thanks GW, that immediately killed any enthusiasm I had.

carmachu wrote:
Thank you. But you have to admit you appear to be someone who is talking like one that doesnt have any clue. That you didnt know PP constantly updates things on their site and fields questions?

Excuse me? Just because I'm not waving the pirate flag of a PP fanboi and singing their praises from the mountaintop, that doesn't make me clueless. I'm well aware that PP constantly churns their line. And I'm well aware what a WM/H army costs.

But if we're going to admit things, how about you admit that PP did a 180 in game design from what they originally released, and that they appear to have no intention of getting back to the very roots that made them attractive as an alternative to GW, but rather appear to be in the process of becoming the very thing that you appear to loathe so much: an American clone of GW.

Hope you find what yoru looking for.

Me, too.

But oddly, GW is doing a better job of giving me what I'm looking for.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

carmachu wrote:
Thank you. But you have to admit you appear to be someone who is talking like one that doesnt have any clue. That you didnt know PP constantly updates things on their site and fields questions?

Excuse me? Just because I'm not waving the pirate flag of a PP fanboi and singing their praises from the mountaintop, that doesn't make me clueless. I'm well aware that PP constantly churns their line. And I'm well aware what a WM/H army costs.

But if we're going to admit things, how about you admit that PP did a 180 in game design from what they originally released, and that they appear to have no intention of getting back to the very roots that made them attractive as an alternative to GW, but rather appear to be in the process of becoming the very thing that you appear to loathe so much: an American clone of GW.

Hope you find what yoru looking for.

Me, too.

But oddly, GW is doing a better job of giving me what I'm looking for.

Please explain your statement in italics, above (italics mine), as there are a lot of ways to understand 'GW clone'. Do you mean taking the company public? 'Codex'/New Release creep? going from skirmish to larger point/model count battles? I'd like clarification please.

If you go through my previous posts, my basic thesis is that PP appears to be following the GW model, and is currently on the verge of completing their RT-equivalent era. They have the same issuses with skirmish bloat, rules bloat, power creep, rebalancing, etc. It's *everything*.

Granted that PP has the advantage of hindsight and streamlining in their favor. But otherwise, the development is the same.

Stelek wrote:You'll never see a FAQ again, either.

GW will shout 'eff off' to all of us in a few months time.

You know, Jeremy Vetock stood in front of 200-300 players at the Baltimore GT and told us that FAQs were imminent. But we all know that 5th edition is on the way. So are they actually going happen? And if so, will they be of consequence?

Fourth edition FAQs don't make any sense now. Fifth edition FAQs make more sense, but how effective and complete can they be if they roll them out right after 5th edition is released? Or will they be more of a watered-down errata sheet with more general clarifications? It's pathetic that they actually have me wanting them to wait another year so that they might have substantive FAQs that actually address the real issues! Argh!

I've defended them so many times on this forum, but I'm tired of being lied to and tired of being told we aren't playing "the right way" by designers who are in absentia for the better part of each edition (they usually pop their heads up at the beginning and near the end of each new edition). Fifth edition is GW's last chance to keep my business.

" Jervis tries harder than probably any other designer in the industry, because he has a harder job than any other designer in the industry. He's in charge of the industry-leading game (from a $$$ perspective), with a larger installed base of players, and more people on his back trying to drive sales from what is likely a fully-saturated base."

It's probibly because he's so busy writing, rewriting, and then throwing away the FAQ's. Someone should go and tell him to go take a vacation.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Jervis tries harder than probably any other designer in the industry, because he has a harder job than any other designer in the industry. He's in charge of the industry-leading game (from a $$$ perspective), with a larger installed base of players, and more people on his back trying to drive sales from what is likely a fully-saturated base.

You mean the guy who refuses to fix errors he admits about and doesn't even know the game's basic rules?

Yea, right. Don't make me laugh.

Out of curiosity, to GW staff wear a cup to official events here in the US?

This malarky with BLI and Dark Heresy smacks of more of the same sillyness. Sad, because I'm really enjoying 40K again for the first time in 4 years. My biggest beef was Orks, and that's sorted.
But all the problems are still there. No faqs, typo laden codices, sluggish release schedual, expensive models, no interaction with customers, no feedback.
If something shady and suspicious ends up with the company tanking, I'm going to be annoyed. But they do seem to be incredibly mismanaged, and contemptous of their fanbase, and this is something they really, really need to address. We all want to like GW, but they make it bloody hard.

Yep. They were saying right up to release that they were going to be releasing support for Space Marines and Rogue Traders - then reversed course as soon as it sold out. That's not very ethical - and maybe not even very wise in the long-term.

BLI makes no sense. If the product is hot enough to sell out on preorders, it's crazy not to do the supplements.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Excuse me? Just because I'm not waving the pirate flag of a PP fanboi and singing their praises from the mountaintop, that doesn't make me clueless. I'm well aware that PP constantly churns their line. And I'm well aware what a WM/H army costs.

What did you really expect? No one expects you to be PP flag waver, but look at some of your posts. When you come into a debate of flaws and merits of PP and GW and you dont even seem to come across as KNOWING the strengths of PP but are willing to poo-poo them....you looked ignorant.

But if we're going to admit things, how about you admit that PP did a 180 in game design from what they originally released, and that they appear to have no intention of getting back to the very roots that made them attractive as an alternative to GW, but rather appear to be in the process of becoming the very thing that you appear to loathe so much: an American clone of GW.

Nope. Sorry that doesnt past the muster. They, as of this moment, will never be an american clone of GW. The are repsonives and lilsten and are on top of the game. They keep it tweeked for all factions, and fairly balanced. Something GW isnt and wont.

I have no idea of what 180 yoru talking about, unless the expansion to 750-1000pts....but you never have to play there. I get along fine at 500pts for the moment.

But oddly, GW is doing a better job of giving me what I'm looking for.

*shrug*

I find it odd, but to each their own.....

carmachu wrote:I have no idea of what 180 yoru talking about, unless the expansion to 750-1000pts....but you never have to play there. I get along fine at 500pts for the moment.

The core of JohnHwangDD arguement against PP is that they advertised the game revolving around Jacks and Warcasters, with low emphasis on infantry. WM now plays infantry heavy, with few jacks, thus the "180". He's all hacked off because his all jack 500 point army is pretty useless when compared to what other factions are running. Instead of playing 350 points of Mangled Metal (caster and jacks) he wants to play Jacks and Casters at 500 points. While I'll admit infantry in WM is a bit stronger than Jacks, most lists still run 1-2 jacks. My standard list has 1 marshaled heavy jack which for fills the "shoot at this" and AOE slot for the army. I run a higher percentage of jacks in my WM lists than armor in my 40K lists. Some of that has to do with the FOC, rest has to do with how awful armor is.

Techboss wrote:

The core of JohnHwangDD arguement against PP is that they advertised the game revolving around Jacks and Warcasters, with low emphasis on infantry. WM now plays infantry heavy, with few jacks, thus the "180". He's all hacked off because his all jack 500 point army is pretty useless when compared to what other factions are running. Instead of playing 350 points of Mangled Metal (caster and jacks) he wants to play Jacks and Casters at 500 points. While I'll admit infantry in WM is a bit stronger than Jacks, most lists still run 1-2 jacks. My standard list has 1 marshaled heavy jack which for fills the "shoot at this" and AOE slot for the army. I run a higher percentage of jacks in my WM lists than armor in my 40K lists. Some of that has to do with the FOC, rest has to do with how awful armor is.

To which, he has a point.

However, the point doesnt hold up under more intense scrutiny....again, he comes off ignorant as to PP.

Infantry has/does rise to promiance in warmachine. BUT, PP is/has addresss that problem....unlike GW who tends to ignore problems. Introducing things like trample and two-handed throw and other items to bring jacks back into a more prominant position. Or casters that work better with jacks.

They also learned that lesson and adpated it in hordes....beasts are necessary. and you wont leave them out.

carmachu wrote:you dont even seem to come across as KNOWING the strengths of PP but are willing to poo-poo them....you looked ignorant.

*What* strengths? As far as I'm concerned, there are none.

They keep it tweeked for all factions, and fairly balanced. Something GW isnt and wont.

I dunno. They're buffing and nerfing, same as GW. They just have a lot fewer factions and stuff.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

carmachu wrote:you dont even seem to come across as KNOWING the strengths of PP but are willing to poo-poo them....you looked ignorant.

*What* strengths? As far as I'm concerned, there are none.

I don't see why arguing an opinion on this with JohnHwangDD matters
to you, carmachu. He dismisses PP because he wants to, not because
he has any reason to. PP fans do the same thing with GW (though some
of them do so like lapsed *insert religious group here*).

If either fanbase doesn't want to see the strengths or weaknesses of
the other, that's their own loss.

Aside from having invested time and money into a small pile of rules & minis that I'm unlikely to play, yeah, I've got no reason whatsoever.

...

What I find most amusing is how, when the shoe's on the other foot, somehow, GW is evil. But PP can do no wrong. WTF?

No.

The difference is that PP is reacting to the situation, making interaction a priority, and, even though they are bringing out more and more for the game, the company is making an ATTEMPT at balence, consistancy, and using feedback from the players as to the nerfs. The fact that they HAVE to do all of the above should tell you that more people play the game, hence... the need for the nerf bat.

The only issue I see with them is that of continuality. "Where do they go from here", kind of thing.

What is PP's Long Term business plan?

GW is in serious trouble. Because... they don't maker ANY attempts at any of the above.

Somewhere along the line, they went from offense to defense, and never gained the initiative back.

The deal is that it isn't about being Evil, its about being stupid.

Stupidity is worse in this case in my opinion.