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JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, of course, when a rule/army *is* too powerful...

For example, why didn't C: Daemons get Lash as worded in C: CSM? Why did Rending get toned down? Perhaps because they were too powerful as-is and as-used?

Proving conclusivley that you didn't understand Drake's post at all.

BYE

so with pedro kantor and inspiring presence if a unit of 5 sternguard are within 12' does the unit have 11 basic attacks if charged or 15. if the former how would this work with mixed weapon squads(power weapons/basic, pw/pf/basic). just wondering if the unit gets an additional attack or each model. i would think each model gets the bonus( even though that is really powerful)but the wording (or posting) suggests otherwise

there are already a ridiculous number of marine players. yay for more! ¬.¬

Okay, so here, then.

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Chaos come out, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Many players don't like the lists, and at GTs and cons and such the Dev team fields many questions about "OMG WHY DO THESE SUK NOW." Clearly the path they were going down (while, in my opinion, not a bad one to tread) was not well-received.

So, for the new Space Marine codex, they rework a lot of stuff. People then scream about how it's not fair and Chaos got shafted or whatever.

Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

Isn't this more or less exactly what you said you wanted? Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options? Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are? This is completely ignoring the fact that we have no idea how much any of these options are going to cost.

Fixing the mistake would be to re-release a revised DA, BA, and Chaos codex. Not leave them vastly inferior for the next four years.

People want balance. GW wants sales. This is why we bitch about an overpowered codex and GW smiles as a new legion of 12 year olds beg momma for the shiny blue box.

GW might still be able to 'fix' the BA and DA via FAQ.

GW claims that we'll get Chaos Traitor Legion codices for the "Big 4" 'eventually' (if you believe Jervis and JohnHwangDD ). So, maybe a 'fix' there, which confirms that the latest CSM codex was really Codex Renegades/Black Legion. Though that still leaves the major Undivided Traitors out in the cold.

The new SM codex clearly looks like a minor (or major?) repudiation of the "Jervis Philosophy", though we won't know for sure until the next 40K Codex is released.

These Space Marines seem extremely... ahem... flexible. There is a wide variety of potential power lists from Brimstones thread. Some of them won't pan out as well as others and a few of them aren't gleamed yet.

It does appear that the Marines have the ability to field a list that, on paper, can hammer most power lists out there right now, however that marine list would be so specific enough that the marine player would have some trouble against another top list.

I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

I'm gradually forming the opinion that Marines are going the way of the Eldar. They seem to be incredibly flexible when taken as a whole, but (as long as point costs are costed reasonably, i.e. high) people will have smaller armies of specialized squads good at doing a few things well instead of everything [badly].

Now, considering the power of the eldar codex, that's really not a bad thing overall. However, if your Marine army is, say, decked out with the 2handed S6 power weapons and super elite vets geared toward Nidzilla killing, then how are you going to do against the Ork Waaaagh!, or gunline IG, that sort of thing...?

Although I think the new options look to open up some insane power plays, until we get the points costs we don't know if Ultramarines are going to sweep all before them or if it's just overcosted fluff.

At the moment, I'm kind of predicting one pretty good all-comers list, like Double Lash Chaos, and a whole bunch of awesome counter lists that only do well against specific matchups but fail due to high cost and few options in a general sense.

Salvation122 wrote:Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

No one will ever stop them from fixing a mistake. Of course, none of us have seen them fix one yet.

Releasing a new Marine Codex doesn't 'fix' the problems with BA/DA/CSM. The notion of of "we'll do better on the next one - promise" is of little meaning to those who lost thier legions (whereas Marine players get to keep their Chapters, allbethem tied to fething special characters).

BYE

DarthDiggler wrote:I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

Nope. But that doesn't mean that these very same termies are immune to massed power of flashlights either.

The extraordinary save of the storm shield is so that that very same termie squad who has absolutely no range capability, can actually have one or two surviving members to do their job from high powered range weapons.

You have to see it in context as opposed to a vacuum.

TH/SS termies sucked big time in 4th ed. GW is trying to make them usable. This is certainly a step towards doing just that. But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Stelek wrote:

You must remember the unwashed masses who are lazy is what BOLS is for.

Hey! I'm an unwashed mass!!!

Hellfury wrote:But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Agreed. This is not a codex change that worries me or screams 'unbalanced'. It's just another piece of design to pull people away from relying on the mathammer of lasplas to kill MEQs, in favour of troop numbers.

Salvation122 wrote:

Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

Isn't this more or less exactly what you said you wanted? Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options? Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are? This is completely ignoring the fact that we have no idea how much any of these options are going to cost.

I am all for interesting and dynamic options. After becoming a victim to GW's streamlining experiment, I'm just not sure I want to wait for years and years for them to get around to giving me those options again.

Fixing a mistake involves admitting you were wrong and going back to correct the problem. Moving forward and telling the people that were directly impacted by the mistake to wait for some unidentified period of time is NOT fixing a mistake.

I don't deny the new CSM 'dex is competitive and can win. The problem is it is BORING. A boring CSM army is a tragedy IMHO.

Alpharius wrote:The new SM codex clearly looks like a minor (or major?) repudiation of the "Jervis Philosophy", though we won't know for sure until the next 40K Codex is released.

Wait for Codex: IG. It may just be that SM are the exception to the rule (as per usual).

Salvation122 wrote:Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options?

Yes.

Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are?

The only thing I like better than winning is watching you lose.

Hellfury wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

Nope. But that doesn't mean that these very same termies are immune to massed power of flashlights either.

The extraordinary save of the storm shield is so that that very same termie squad who has absolutely no range capability, can actually have one or two surviving members to do their job from high powered range weapons.

You have to see it in context as opposed to a vacuum.

TH/SS termies sucked big time in 4th ed. GW is trying to make them usable. This is certainly a step towards doing just that. But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Exactly!

THAT is the fix I'm still waiting for.

I know I've said it a few times before ( ), but the only time Terminator armor 'felt' right was when it was a 3+ on 2d6 save. You rarely lost one to massed low strength firepower.

I don't know how to 'fix' this using the 1d6 AP system we're apparently going to be stuck with forever.

Easy.

Make all termies FNP and it replicates the old 3+ on 2D6 they had in 2nd ed.

Of course that isnt going to happen, as termies are no longer tough as nails, just an overpriced excuse for a cool looking model.

I could live with T5 W2 Sv2+/5+ termies too for that price. FNP might not be too bad either instead of all that.

stonefox wrote:Iron Warriors and Rhino-rushing Blood Angels were both space marines.

These were both nerfed into oblivion.

Da Boss wrote:I think it's a big deal because it takes what was unique and cool from those armies and gives it to marines. If marines get all the special bits from everyone else, then everyone else is going to be annoyed.

Lemme know when Predators get Holo Fields

Lemme know when Land Raiders get Living Metal, and don't pay extra for ubercool Extra Armor

Lemme know when the new Librarian powers come even CLOSE to the uberness of Lash, or Fortune

Lemme know when Marines can field 8 multi-wound Monstrous Creatures

Lemme know when Devastator squads can move and shoot their heavy weapons

Voodoo_Chile wrote:I bought a Space Wolves army off a friend I had planned to turn into more Chaos but now I think Ill hold on. This Codex sounds great and if there is just enough momentum it might carry on into a Space Wolves codex of equal worth

Rumor has it that Space Wolves will be getting love pretty soon.

Kallbrand wrote:Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

You sure about this? How much whining about the Dark Angel codex was there? If anyone here claims that's an overpowered codex now, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

Edit: Sorry about the multi-posts, I was getting caught up on the thread

Lormax wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

You sure about this? How much whining about the Dark Angel codex was there? If anyone here claims that's an overpowered codex now, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

You are actually proving his point though.

We knew before the DA codex was released that it was a pile of dreck. There was much whining to be had there, although on the opposite spectrum.
Just like we knew how broken Fzorgle was before it was released..etc.

My last 10 cents... we all talking about the CSM, Eldar, IG, will be okay with this ... What about the Tau....!

Hellfury wrote:Easy.

Make all termies FNP and it replicates the old 3+ on 2D6 they had in 2nd ed.

Of course that isnt going to happen, as termies are no longer tough as nails, just an overpriced excuse for a cool looking model.

That is a good point!

And it makes so much sense that it is sad that it isn't happening...

Yeah, I could live with termies having a limited firing capability in the form of one heavy if termies were tough again.

But 40+ points for a single heavy weapon in a squad? With the way they die now? Give me a break. GW missed its chance yet again to balance terminators out. Giving them two heavies in 10 men is a nice start, but it doesn't address the issue. This is just Jervis being a chaod monkey again.

I only hope that DW apothecaries will be able to utlize the new FNP apothecary rules. DW need that more than anyone.

Though go to the B&C and you will see a huge amount of wailing regarding it being changed. Its really spit regarding how they want it to work. I don't understand. FNP is superior to the old way apothecaries worked because it works in close combat as well. Sure, you don't get an auto save versus high str weaponry, but this make termies survive against everything now.

5th ed is all about high volume firepower, so AP weaponry is rather passe. The FNP apothecary will help termies survive all this attrition.

You could make the old apothecaries work in melee too, you just needed to keep them out of base. Still, I agree with all your other points; terminators are just far to cool for how poor their rules are. Come to think of it... I have way too many cool models that have crap rules... there must be something wrong with me.

FNP on terminators will go a long, long way to making them immune to small arms fire, however, so that is a good start. (Not that they are making that their start.)

AgeOfEgos wrote: I think the Vets do pay for the ability though...it was said before they were around 30 pts/each. Pretty pricey for assault marine stat lines. Of course, they have more options than assault marines...but again that's even more points too. I don't think the vets will be that common (Perhaps Kantor armies?).

If Vanguard Vets are only 30pts, expect to see a lot of them. 30pts seems a lot, but unlike most assault units you dont have to account for casualties on the way in. for example. I buy 30 genestealers to get a dozen of them in combat, and find it worthwhile. If stealers could deepstrike and assault I would only need to buy one brood. Thus the price cound be as high as 40pts and they would still just about break even on potency. 30pts is too damn cheap.

I think hope that the points for a lot of these specialist units are pretty high. I know I don't want to see nothing but Vanguards, Sternguards, Assault termies, with two units of tacs in my games.

What I hope will happen is that if you want to take all these spiffy guys, play Apocalypse where point values don't matter so much. Lots of fun really tough guys in the size of games where these sort of things will show up. Thats where these guys belong. Not in my 1750 pt three hour just for fun games.

Jayden63 wrote:I think hope that the points for a lot of these specialist units are pretty high. I know I don't want to see nothing but Vanguards, Sternguards, Assault termies, with two units of tacs in my games.

What I hope will happen is that if you want to take all these spiffy guys, play Apocalypse where point values don't matter so much. Lots of fun really tough guys in the size of games where these sort of things will show up. Thats where these guys belong. Not in my 1750 pt three hour just for fun games.

Jayden you do realize that assault termies die like flies to concentrated firepower right? Flashlights make a mockery of termies. I know orks arent the best shooty army, but they are definitely better than before.

The other stuff like sternguard and vanguards...meh. Gimmicky crap to sell models with. I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that those two units wont get too much playtime due to cost versus effectiveness.

What I realize is that if you cut out the junk and focus on the strength you can do VERY well with only 5-6 squads of even the high point value stuff.

Don't expect guys who take 3 units of Vanguards to for some reason take 3 HB razor backs just for filler. Focus, focus, focus. Set an army play style and ignore everything that doesn't fit into it. Suddenly you have lots of room for lots of 30 point guys.