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BBeale wrote:God of War let's you choose to pass or fail a morale test. If you choose to pass, you pass...Passing happens automatically. As a result, No Retreat applies.

Brice

pg. 44 No Retreat!: "These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back."

So I just chose to pass the morale test that I do not take?

I didn't buy a lottery ticket! I choose to win the lottery! What?

BBeale wrote:God of War let's you choose to pass or fail a morale test. If you choose to pass, you pass. Full stop.

No need to go beyond that. Full stop. If you choose to pass, you pass. If I roll a 2, I also pass. If I didn't need to roll or check for a result, then whatever that result was was automatic.

No, Sourclams, the pertinent question is, "Did you take a morale test?" No, you chose to use God of War. Fine. You did not take a morale test and you automatically passed due to the special rule. Now you've met the conditions for No Retreat to apply.

Brice

BBeale wrote:No, the pertinent question is, "Did you take a morale test?" No, you chose to use God of War.

BRB under Morale Tests. Some Codexes will let you use another means to make a morale test other than what is listed in the BRB. Such as, with God of War, choosing the result rather than rolling it. The morale test was still taken. The unit was not immune to taking it, and was not required to pass it or fail it.

Having to take the test and actually taking it are not the same thing. If you choose the outcome of the test via God of War you are not actually taking the test, since taking the test requires rolling the dice. Not to mention, all precedent we have from GW, and even rules interpretations by paid judges at GTs, supports this position. If this ever gets a FAQ, God of War WILL trigger No Retreat if used to pass a morale test. Lots of people with more experience and perspective than I have already said the same in this thread, but I guess this is what dead horses are made for.

Brice

Timmah wrote:
Why in EVERY SINGLE OTHER circumstance of passing leadership INCLUDING IN THE SAME BOOK WITH ATSKNF, it specifically states that it is an automatic pass, yet in this 1 entry it does not?

You can cite the definition of automatic all that you want but in terms of game rules, as it stands now, this is not an automatic pass and is not subject to no retreat. If it was GW would have written they can choose to automatically pass or automatically fail any leadership test.

Why does everyone arguing that it's an automatic keep ignoring this question and citing what the definition of automatic is. I know what it is!

The only answer I have got to the above question is that GW is inconsistent with rules. However that doesn't really refute this point as GW has been consistent with this rule up until now including in the same book.

So once again one of you people claiming it is an automatic pass please explain the above question to me.

BBeale wrote:If this ever gets a FAQ, God of War WILL trigger No Retreat if used to pass a morale test. Lots of people with more experience and perspective than I have already said the same in this thread, but I guess this is what dead horses are made for.
Brice

Also on a side note, here is the problem all of you for this triggering no retreat are having. This is clearly an assumption that all of you have and that is why you are claiming it triggers because you believe if it does get FAQed it will trigger no retreat.

Timmah wrote:

Timmah wrote:
Why in EVERY SINGLE OTHER circumstance of passing leadership INCLUDING IN THE SAME BOOK WITH ATSKNF, it specifically states that it is an automatic pass, yet in this 1 entry it does not?

You can cite the definition of automatic all that you want but in terms of game rules, as it stands now, this is not an automatic pass and is not subject to no retreat. If it was GW would have written they can choose to automatically pass or automatically fail any leadership test.

Why does everyone arguing that it's an automatic keep ignoring this question and citing what the definition of automatic is. I know what it is!

The only answer I have got to the above question is that GW is inconsistent with rules. However that doesn't really refute this point as GW has been consistent with this rule up until now including in the same book.

So once again one of you people claiming it is an automatic pass please explain the above question to me.

BBeale wrote:If this ever gets a FAQ, God of War WILL trigger No Retreat if used to pass a morale test. Lots of people with more experience and perspective than I have already said the same in this thread, but I guess this is what dead horses are made for.
Brice

Also on a side note, here is the problem all of you for this triggering no retreat are having. This is clearly an assumption that all of you have and that is why you are claiming it triggers because you believe if it does get FAQed it will trigger no retreat.

I asked it and I do believe you replied.

arguments that support GoW as UNAFFECTED by NR:

1.) No Retreat includes the following text to describe who it affects "These models do not take morale checks and will never fall back from combat"

there are 2 conditions in that statement coupled with the word 'AND' which indicates BOTH conditions must be met.
-condition 1 "...do not take morale checks...":
-condition 2 "...will never fall back"

For the sake of argument lets assume no check happens because no dice are rolled, allowing condition #1 to be met. However, GoW units clearly can/will/do fall back which is in direct opposition with the 2nd condition that needs to be met for No Retreat to take effect.


2.) People are hung up on the word automatic

-according to dictionary.com:
-Automatic: Ocuring independently of volition; involuntary.
-Volition: the act of willing, choosing, or resolving
-by definition choosing the outcome of the test is the exact opposite of being automatic



3.) Comparison of syntax between GoW, Fearless, ATSKNF and the Commissar entries

-the entry for Fearless in the basic rule book (pg 75) uses the word automatic twice in the brief 4 sentences that describe the rule. "... automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests..."
-the Commissar entry in the IG codex (pg 41) also uses the word automatic "This happens automatically..."
-the ATSKNF entry in the SM codex (pg 51) uses the word automatic when talking about Morale tests "... automatically pass tests to regroup...". This entry also explicitly states that NR will be in effect under certain conditions
-the God of War rule never uses the word automatic in its description


4.) The intent of No Retreat is to describe what happens to units who lose a combat but are too zealous/stubborn/stupid/etc to run. The intent of GoW is that calgar and posse are so smart/experienced/tactically wise/etc that they can set aside their emotions and make decisions based on logic


If someone of the opposing viewpoint could give some clear explanations of all the reasons they think the rule should apply, I would love to see it. Unfortunately my quick summary of the opposing view falls back to the following arguments:

-"events with more than a single possible outcome can be considered automatic" (only on opposite day)
-"unless dice were rolled everything is automatic" (i dont roll dice to see if i am going to shave before going to work every morning but i don't automatically fire up the razor after every shower either)
-"gw doesn't proofread/edit/control the specifics of the language they use when writting rules so consistency can't be expected" (my firewarriors have toughness 5 and 3+ saves but unfortunately gw doesnt have any quality control and there are typos in my codex)


*edited for a spelling typo*

BBeale wrote:Having to take the test and actually taking it are not the same thing.

BRB pg. 43: "Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value...

"Some units have special rules pertaining to Morale checks that are detailed in the appropriate codex. For example, some particularly fanatical units may be immune to the effects of morale. Some units always pass Morale check, while a few others always pass all Leadership tests. This is a subtle but important difference..."

-----

SM Codex, pg. 84: "Mareus Calgar can choose whether to pass or fail any Morale check he is called upon to make..."

----

God of War uses a Codex-mandated Morale test or Morale check mechanism. Morale tests are taken and don't need to use the standard 2d6 check versus leadership mechanism. It's replaced by the mechanism given in God of War. This should be indicated by the quoted rule sections above. I'd also like to point out that this is probably a dead-end argument. Even Fearless units pass their Morale check or Morale test according to the Morale check rules (according to the Fearless USR).

The dice are not a requirement. God of War units are taking Morale tests, and passing or not passing them as Mareus-freakin'-Caligar chooses.

If a Morale test doesn't use dice, that by itself does not make the result of the test automatic. If it was automatic, you would already know which of the two possible results would happen by what the special rule says. Since you don't know that with God of War, any Morale test passes chosen by the player should not be considered automatic passes of a Morale test.

Now that I think of it, the morale check text is relevant. I hope you don't if I respond to something from the poll thread here. Or maybe it's 3 a.m. thinking. You tell me.

First, accept that God of War legitimately replaces the mechanism for Morale checks or tests as given two posts ago. Morale checks for units with God of War means "choose whether to pass or fail any Morale check..."

Secondly, the part of the No Retreat! rule (BRB pg. 44) we're arguing over is "or to automatically pass them for some reason", which by the meaning of the rest of the sentence, is the same as "or to automatically pass Morale checks for some reason". I think this word replacement is not controversial.

People who say No Retreat! applies say that after the player chooses to pass a Morale check under God of War, it automatically passes. Or that choosing pass means it's automatically pass.

Look at that No Retreat! rule again. It's the Morale check itself that must be automatically passed. "...to automatically pass Morale checks for some reason". Only what happens during the morale check itself is relevant for consideration. The Morale check mechanism, however, is the text of the God of War. "Choose whether to pass or fail." We determine whether it's automatic by looking at whether "choose whether to pass or fail any Morale check" alone means you must pass. What happens outside, after, or before the Morale check is not relevant to No Retreat!.

No Retreat! asks whether you automatically pass the Morale check, not pass after the Morale check's result. So even if choosing to pass means it's an automatic pass later, since that later part is not part of the Morale check, it doesn't matter.

sourclams wrote:It'll have to wait on an FAQ then because as-written Marines still have the option of passing or failing the test. Any time you have a choice, it's not automatic.

The choice to pass is not automatic, but once you choose to pass the Morale test is passed automatically.

The choice to roll low not automatic, but once you roll below the LD, the Morale check is passed automatically.

gaylord500 wrote:The choice to roll low not automatic, but once you roll below the LD, the Morale check is passed automatically.

To go back to the transmission analogy.

The choice to change gears is not automatic, but once I shift into third, the car shifts into third automatically.

And we could go on all day, his post has a point, yours is just being stupid.

gaylord500 wrote:The choice to roll low not automatic, but once you roll below the LD, the Morale check is passed automatically.

QFT BUUUURRNNNNN!

The word Automatic means as follows:

Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eyes in strong light. See Synonyms at spontaneous.

This indicates to me that there can be no choice in the matter.

For example:
Synapse for Tyranids: They do not have a choice or an option to fail and also will not fall back. Thus they are subject to no retreat.

Commisar's Ability: The unit fails a moral check but has no choice but to pass due to the rules for summary execution thus subject to no retreat.

These both illustrate the fact that there is no choice to pass the leadership test and thus it is an involuntary action. For GoW there is a choice that choice is pass or fail and because of it the unit voluntarily passes the test. The dice roll is a random of way of doing this process. This just takes the randomness out of it.

So GoW marines are not subject to No Retreat.

I have a question with regards to GoW. If the affected unit rolls morale and passes, there is no No Retreat. If you fail, it becomes pass. Is this automatic?

Homer

Drunkspleen wrote:

gaylord500 wrote:The choice to roll low not automatic, but once you roll below the LD, the Morale check is passed automatically.

To go back to the transmission analogy.

The choice to change gears is not automatic, but once I shift into third, the car shifts into third automatically.

And we could go on all day, his post has a point, yours is just being stupid.

You see that doesn't make the car an automatic one.

And it's not a stupid point - it's the reason why folks don't see No Retreat! from this rule. It doesn't matter that if you shift into the third the car automatically shifts to third. If you roll below LD, you automatically pass the Morale check, too. That part being automatic cannot be what No Retreat! is talking about when it asks whether an automatic pass of the Morale check happens. Otherwise, there would never be a time it doesn't apply.

It's whether the transmission is an automatic or manual, whether the Morale test is resolved or needs to be resolved. Can you shift the car into third? It's not automatic, then.

gaylord500 wrote:

BBeale wrote:Having to take the test and actually taking it are not the same thing.

BRB pg. 43: "Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2d6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value...

"Some units have special rules pertaining to Morale checks..."

The portion you do not address is that the "no retreat" rule on the next page states that units that use those "special rules" are subject to no retreat.

I don't think the special rules mentioned in the Morale test are necessarily the same as the ones mentioned in No Retreat!.

That said, No Retreat! says some special rules may mean No Retreat! applies. And then it says those special rules are ones which the units can never fall back or do not take Morale checks (2nd paragraph of the No Retreat! rule). God of War is a Morale check mechanism and those units can fall back. Therefore, it is not one of the special rules No Retreat! says it covers - units covered by it can fall back and do take Morale checks (albeit their own rather than the BRB's).

Homer S wrote:I have a question with regards to GoW. If the affected unit rolls morale and passes, there is no No Retreat. If you fail, it becomes pass. Is this automatic?

Homer

If you fail a morale check as a space marine it does not "become a pass" you then roll to fall back and the enemy rolls to sweeping advance, if they catch you then instead of being wiped out you stay in combat and are subject to no retreat. This is a clear exception where the codex tells you no retreat applies where it normally would not.

gaylord500 wrote:I don't think the special rules mentioned in the Morale test are necessarily the same as the ones mentioned in No Retreat!. (snip) God of War is a Morale check mechanism and those units can fall back. Therefore, it is not one of the special rules No Retreat! says it covers - units covered by it can fall back and do take Morale checks (albeit their own rather than the BRB's).

God of War does not replace the morale check requirement, so the codex does not override that portion of the rules - instead it overrides the need for the God of War to actually take the check itself.

The special rules in the one rule match up perfectly with the special rules for the no retreat rule. I do have to disagree with the assumption that the two are different.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Homer S wrote:I have a question with regards to GoW. If the affected unit rolls morale and passes, there is no No Retreat. If you fail, it becomes pass. Is this automatic?

Homer

If you fail a morale check as a space marine it does not "become a pass" you then roll to fall back and the enemy rolls to sweeping advance, if they catch you then instead of being wiped out you stay in combat and are subject to no retreat. This is a clear exception where the codex tells you no retreat applies where it normally would not.

I understand ATSKNF, but thanks! It does if the unit has GoW, which is what the whole discussion is about.

Homer

Dude, how about this.

Do you roll dice?

if yes, it is not automatic

if no, it is automatic

It isn't the talmud, it isn't rocket science, and it isn't unclear.

Somnicide,

Do you have a choice?

if yes then its not automatic

if no then it is automatic.

This is simple folks automatic means, without choice, or involuntary. In this case passing the test is a voluntary action and thus is not automatic.

Antonin wrote: God of War does not replace the morale check requirement...

Sure it does. God of War units aren't immune to Morale checks. They take them as they say they are taken.

Fearless units aren't immune to Morale checks either. They take them as they say they are taken; they "automatically pass."

Walkers are immune to Morale checks in close combat. They don't take them. As an additional benefit to being walkers, No Retreat! doesn't apply to them.

A Morale check is a mechanism. Pass or fail are the results. 2d6 compare to LD is the most common way to take a morale test. God of War and Fearless have two examples of alternate ways. This is perfectly fine according to the BRB.

Or are you saying the only alternate morale test is something like "roll 3d6 and compare to LD"? If that's so, I'd ask why you would assume that. There's nothing that says the dice have to be used by Codex-replaced Morale test rules.

Wow, I will just agree to disagree. My group has decided that we will play by no retreat until a faq reverses that and will make sure and check with tourney organizers before hand.

In all other situations, a morale check that you automatically pass is one where you do not the dice.

Automatically is not a game term, stop trying to turn it into one. It is a descriptive term which is saying you don't roll the dice, you just pass.

Calgar does not roll the dice, he just passes.

If you pass without rolling, that is qualification for No Retreat.

Trasvi wrote:In all other situations, a morale check that you automatically pass is one where you do not the dice.

Automatically is not a game term, stop trying to turn it into one. It is a descriptive term which is saying you don't roll the dice, you just pass.

Calgar does not roll the dice, he just passes.

If you pass without rolling, that is qualification for No Retreat.

Actually, nowhere in his ability does it say you don't roll, you just choose whether to pass or to fail.

Trasvi wrote:In all other situations, a morale check that you automatically pass is one where you do not the dice.

Except possibly for this rule and Iron Will.

You assume that's true and rely on that assumption to criticize the rule. Since I don't believe that's so, I can believe the following. (If it was written that automatically means use the dice, you'd have a case for it.) It's written that alternate methods of Morale testing are acceptable. Such as choosing. Or not being able to choose; passing automatically.

Fearless replaces a roll of the dice with automatically passing. A bunch of other rules that don't use dice do, too. God of War and Iron Will replaces it with choosing to pass or fail.