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No, the unit DOESN'T take the test; choosing to pass the test means no Morale Check. You can roll the dice, but they mean nothing... because you automaticly passed it, by choosing to.

The second paragraph of the Morale Check description on page 43 notes that "Some units always pass morale checks..." So choosing to pass the test still means a Morale Check took place.

RogalDorn wrote:I don't see the rules debate here.

"Can choose to Pass or Fail any Morale Check they are called upon to make." -p. 84 SM Codex

The unit does take a Morale check...and then it Passes it. Where does that constitue No Retreat?

I've never seen Iron Will ruled as Fearless.

Because of pg 44 of the rulebook "...or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule)."

Choosing to pass seems to mean that it automatically passes, right?

Somnicide wrote:
Because of pg 44 of the rulebook "...or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule)."

Choosing to pass seems to mean that it automatically passes, right?

Automatic is a specific term utilized under the No Retreat rule.

This specific term does not appear in Calgar's entry.

Until it does, this is Rules As Interpreted. And when GW FAQs it, your interpretation might even be the correct one. But, again until then, it is not Rules As Written.

I can get into my car. I can open up a six pack. I can drive erratically and endanger other motorists. But until I actually ingest enough alcohol to put myself over a testable legal limit, no court can ever charge me with driving under the influence. Specific terms, and conditions.

Most states will charge you for open container actually...

lord_sutekh wrote:No, the unit DOESN'T take the test; choosing to pass the test means no Morale Check. You can roll the dice, but they mean nothing... because you automaticly passed it, by choosing to.

No. You didn't 'automatically' pass the test without rolling, you instead chose to pass the test without rolling. If you choose, then it's not automatic.

But if you chose to buy and take to your car was budweiser then the beer you opened would be budweiser. You couldn't argue that you were now drinking a coors even though you had to choose.

sourclams wrote:

Somnicide wrote:
Because of pg 44 of the rulebook "...or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule)."

Choosing to pass seems to mean that it automatically passes, right?

Automatic is a specific term utilized under the No Retreat rule.

This specific term does not appear in Calgar's entry.

Until it does, this is Rules As Interpreted. And when GW FAQs it, your interpretation might even be the correct one. But, again until then, it is not Rules As Written.

This.

Every other time a test is automatic in every rule book it states that it is automatic. Until this one does, it is not.

I will not be using this "interpretation", when using Calgar. If an opponent chooses to argue this viewpoint, I'll shake their hand, tell them "good game", and declare a draw for ignorance of basic concepts of equality in effects.

It seems alot of people are still caught up on the idea that if the player chooses to do something it inherently isn't automatic but the answer to that is staring us right in the face

Codex Space Marines wrote:Combat Tactics: "A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can CHOOSE to AUTOMATICALLY fail any Morale Check it is called upon to take"

It seems pretty plain to me that a choice doesn't necessarily mean what happens isn't automatic. I definitely agree a FAQ would be best, because you could still use this tidbit to argue that because automatic is stated here and not under calgar's rules his aren't automatic.

Then next thing you know, your opponent is telling you to roll your morale tests because calgar's rules don't say you automatically pass or fail depending on what you chose, and if it's not automatic you still have to check, sure it's super dubious, but it's the sort of thing you will end up with trying to automatically pass a test without it counting as automatic.

Drunkspleen wrote:It seems alot of people are still caught up on the idea that if the player chooses to do something it inherently isn't automatic but the answer to that is staring us right in the face

Codex Space Marines wrote:Combat Tactics: "A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can CHOOSE to AUTOMATICALLY fail any Morale Check it is called upon to take"

It seems pretty plain to me that a choice doesn't necessarily mean what happens isn't automatic. I definitely agree a FAQ would be best, because you could still use this tidbit to argue that because automatic is stated here and not under calgar's rules his aren't automatic.

In every other entry pertaining to no retreat, the term 'automatic' is very clear and obvious, as you have yourself pointed out.

Except for Calgar's. Now, when I see every single entry, save one, with the key term 'automatic', do I take my ballpoint pen and write new words into the rule to enforce 'sameness', or do I accept that this is a clear exception based on a specific individual's special rules? GW has been consistent about including the term automatic everywhere they want it.

I will not be using this "interpretation", when using Calgar. If an opponent chooses to argue this viewpoint, I'll shake their hand, tell them "good game", and declare a draw for ignorance of basic concepts of equality in effects.

So you're "that guy" that refuses to play when he doesn't like the rules. Gotcha.

Good find, Spleen.

As I was saying (or at least thinking...lol) "Automatic" refers to a lack of a roll. I still don't see how a Choice and Automatic are opposite.

sourclams wrote:
It seems pretty plain to me that a choice doesn't necessarily mean what happens isn't automatic. I definitely agree a FAQ would be best, because you could still use this tidbit to argue that because automatic is stated here and not under calgar's rules his aren't automatic.

In every other entry pertaining to no retreat, the term 'automatic' is very clear and obvious, as you have yourself pointed out.

Except for Calgar's. Now, when I see every single entry, save one, with the key term 'automatic', do I take my ballpoint pen and write new words into the rule to enforce 'sameness', or do I accept that this is a clear exception based on a specific individual's special rules? GW has been consistent about including the term automatic everywhere they want it.

Exactly if GW had wanted this pass to be automatic they would have added the word in. If you disagree that this is NOT an automatic pass please show me somewhere in any rulebook that has a non-rolling leadership pass that doesn't have automatic in the explanation.

Of course you can just keep arguing that GW wanted to save a little ink for this one entry, even though they used automatic elsewhere in the book to describe ATSKNF.

All the definitions and interpretations of Automatic are moot since they word is not in the description which obviously means GW didn't want it to be considered automatic.

sourclams wrote:So you're "that guy" that refuses to play when he doesn't like the rules. Gotcha.

No, I'm that guy who doesn't like to play people who purposefully stretch the rules to places they don't actually go through purposeful blindness or a need to cheat. Easy mistake to make. If I didn't like the rules AS THEY ARE, I wouldn't play the game... but what you're purporting isn't the rules, so I'm good.

Heah, Aduro: Completely off topic but what is with your choice of avatars. I notice that they have been changing quite often, but definatly share commonalities?

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=255

sourclams wrote: GW has been consistent about including the term automatic everywhere they want it.

We are talking about GW here right? The same company that will write in a codex one set of rules in the armory description and then turn around a write a conflicting set of rules for the same wargear in the summary section .

Drunkspleen wrote:
Then next thing you know, your opponent is telling you to roll your morale tests because calgar's rules don't say you automatically pass or fail depending on what you chose, and if it's not automatic you still have to check, sure it's super dubious, but it's the sort of thing you will end up with trying to automatically pass a test without it counting as automatic.

Interesting point. What I believe Drunkspleen is saying is that we are infering that the term "automatic" exists when we read the statement: "can choose whether to pass or fail any Morale check he is called upon to make" and conclude that by making a said choice the outcome of the choice automatically occurs without the roll of the dice (which is the litteral written case in combat tactics). (or in otherwords, without the implied "automatic" you would still be forced to make a 2D6 morale check even though you "chose" to pass it). Meanwhile others ignore the implied "automatic" in God of War when dealing with the conscequences of No Retreat.

This is not Rules as Implied its RAW.

Why would GW write it in the ATSKNF entry as being automatic and not this one.

The only RAW conclusion we can come to as this pass is not considered automatic.
If it was they would have written automatic as they have in EVERY OTHER CASE.

Sure maybe they forgot, maybe they were saving ink, but there is no way possible for you to claim that without turning this into RAI.

You are arguing what you feel should be right, I am telling you what the rules say.

lord_sutekh wrote:

sourclams wrote:So you're "that guy" that refuses to play when he doesn't like the rules. Gotcha.

No, I'm that guy who doesn't like to play people who purposefully stretch the rules to places they don't actually go through purposeful blindness or a need to cheat. Easy mistake to make. If I didn't like the rules AS THEY ARE, I wouldn't play the game... but what you're purporting isn't the rules, so I'm good.

Prove it. Show me where Calgar's rule states that it's automatic.

Just like how Black Templar storm shields are only 4+ invulnerable saves and certain Imperial armies have smoke launchers that downgrade to glancing without granting a cover save, is it "cheating" to insist that units and abilities costed for certain benefits adhere to the rules as written for their codexes? Because you and your buddies can play the game however you want and I'm perfectly fine with that, but whatever house rules you create to enhance your gameplay doesn't matter one iota to how the rules are actually written down.

Timmah wrote:This is not Rules as Implied its RAW.

Why would GW write it in the ATSKNF entry as being automatic and not this one.

The only RAW conclusion we can come to as this pass is not considered automatic.
If it was they would have written automatic as they have in EVERY OTHER CASE.

Sure maybe they forgot, maybe they were saving ink, but there is no way possible for you to claim that without turning this into RAI.

You are arguing what you feel should be right, I am telling you what the rules say.

I screwed up, I meant to refer to combat tactics not ATSKNF: "A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called upon to make"

Drunkspleens arguement is that units with God of War can choose to pass or fail a test but the choice will not dictate the outcome because unlike in combat tactics, the term automatic is not included. Instead, units must fall back to taking a 2D6 test with the outcome of the dice determining the units fate, not the players choice. However, because this does not seem the logical intention of the rule we infer that the choice must automatically dictate the outcome rather than the 2D6 test.

wyomingfox wrote:However, because this does not seem the logical intention of the rule we infer that the choice must automatically dictate the outcome rather than the 2D6 test.

And here is your problem. You are attempting to interpret what the writers wanted instead of using what they wrote.

Also I am willing to agree that this is an automatic pass in terms of definitions and such. However when it comes to 40k rules there is no where that this says that this pass counts as automatic so hence it is not.

They don't automatically pass it, they just pass it by choosing to. They conversely wouldn't automatically fail a test either, they would just choose to.

Where does CHOOSE and AUTOMATIC become the same word in meaning?

I thought it was about time we brought it to a vote , so here is the link to the poll: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219633.page

Where does CHOOSE and AUTOMATIC become the same word in meaning?

When the choice becomes the result automaticly, that's when. If your choice had a chance of not happening, then it ceases to be automatic.

Let's go at it mathematicly. Unit of Marines loses 2 guys more than their opponents in CC. Assuming Ld 9, minus 2 for the loss, they have a 21/36 chance of passing, 15/36 chance of failing. Using God of War and choosing to pass, the chance becomes 36/36 pass, 0/36 fail. In other words, the chance of success using GoW to pass the test is 1-to-1, thus a statistical certainty, thus automatic.

As long as people are deciding to be thick about this, it'll go round and round forever. Automatic is not a game term, so it's not subject to definition under fixed terms. If something happens automaticly, it's automatic, whether the word is used or not.

sourclams wrote:

lord_sutekh wrote:

sourclams wrote:So you're "that guy" that refuses to play when he doesn't like the rules. Gotcha.

No, I'm that guy who doesn't like to play people who purposefully stretch the rules to places they don't actually go through purposeful blindness or a need to cheat. Easy mistake to make. If I didn't like the rules AS THEY ARE, I wouldn't play the game... but what you're purporting isn't the rules, so I'm good.

Because you and your buddies can play the game however you want and I'm perfectly fine with that, but whatever house rules you create to enhance your gameplay doesn't matter one iota to how the rules are actually written down.

Ask yourself, seriously, when has yakface been wrong? Calgar will follow the commissar and zagstruck as "no retreat!" despite the poorly written description. And it's only under 'house rules' that Calgar will be exempt from 'no retreat!'. Be sure to check back with this thread after the next GT (granted, one can ignore GT rulings and repeat 'not until its FAQed!' over and over).

Uh, didn't Yakface write FAQs? If so, doesn't that mean his choice is as close to RAI as we can get?

Oh, and can someone please explain how Combat tactics "Choosing to automatically fail" and Marneus's "Choose to pass or fail" are different?

It seems as if they are the same things, minus one word.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

NaZ wrote:I agree with yakface here for sure

no different than if you choose to fall back with combat tactics and are caught.

if you didn't roll, then you automatically passed. simple enough

NaZ

It's not automatic. There is the *choice*. The decision is simply moved from luck (Dice) to the player. As long as there is the option to retreat, it cannot be considered automatic I'd say.

Of course it is automatic. If no dice are rolled the result is automatic. The choice is between an automatic fail and an automatic pass. How can it be anything else?

Like some-one elses example, you can turn up for a test an automatically pass it without answering a question or you can not bother to turn up in which case you automatically fail.

The fact that no dice is rolled means that you are deciding which of the two events you are going to automatically do. Normally the choice isn't to automatically pass or fail as the dice decide for you.

@fullheadofhair
Your squirrel is drinking my pint!

RogalDorn wrote:They don't automatically pass it, they just pass it by choosing to. They conversely wouldn't automatically fail a test either, they would just choose to.

Where does CHOOSE and AUTOMATIC become the same word in meaning?

Because, dear reader, one CHOOSES not to roll dice and AUTOMATICALLY passes or one CHOOSES not to roll dice and to AUTOMATICALLY fail. When does not rolling dice be anything but an automatic pass or failure.