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God of War = auto-pass = No Retreat.

You make the choice to pass the test, it automaticly is so, thus No Retreat applies.

In a normal test, you choose whether to pass or not; the dice slap you around and call you a girl and do what they feel like, thus no No Retreat.

No Retreat Pg.44

These units do not take Morale Checks and will never fall back. Instead....

Marneus may choose to pass or fail any Morale check, and while he's on the board, any unit with combat tactics may choose to pass/fail.


Since Marneus and units still take the checks- they just choose to pass/fail- Trigger #1 is invalid. Since they may(and sometimes will) choose to fail thus falling back, Trigger #2 is invalid. No Retreat doesn't apply.

I will disagree, Breton. There is pretty solid precedence here in the Tyranid synapse. They aren't fearless but they still suffer from it. It is the same thing.

coredump wrote:Some are getting hung up on getting a choice, and that the choice isn't automatic..... No Retreat doesn't care if you get a choice or not. It only cares if you had to take the test, or if you passed it automatically. And Calgar can.

To use your same analogy, your teacher gives you the option of taking a test and accepting whatever grade you get as the result, or opting for pass/fail, which gives you credit but does not affect your GPA. Or, if Marneus Calgar is sitting in the desk behind you, you can just let him take the test for you and get an 'A' which will count as a 4.0 toward your GPA.

No Retreat does not apply because Marneus Calgar says so.

Somnicide wrote:I will disagree, Breton. There is pretty solid precedence here in the Tyranid synapse. They aren't fearless but they still suffer from it. It is the same thing.

Tyranids don't get a choice. Marneus Calgar Marines do. We've got a 5th ed rule book that spells out many rules. We've got a 5th ed Marine Codex that ignores several rules out of it because of different, special Marine rules. Precedence can apply both ways.

Deleted

sourclams wrote:

Somnicide wrote:I will disagree, Breton. There is pretty solid precedence here in the Tyranid synapse. They aren't fearless but they still suffer from it. It is the same thing.

Tyranids don't get a choice. Marneus Calgar Marines do. We've got a 5th ed rule book that spells out many rules. We've got a 5th ed Marine Codex that ignores several rules out of it because of different, special Marine rules. Precedence can apply both ways.

No, actually they don't. The rule is quite clearly to automatically pass or automatically fail. It gives you options beyond what people normally have. It is a good thing, but don't try and make it something it isn't.

Breton wrote:No Retreat Pg.44

These units do not take Morale Checks and will never fall back. Instead....

Marneus may choose to pass or fail any Morale check, and while he's on the board, any unit with combat tactics may choose to pass/fail.


Since Marneus and units still take the checks- they just choose to pass/fail- Trigger #1 is invalid. Since they may(and sometimes will) choose to fail thus falling back, Trigger #2 is invalid. No Retreat doesn't apply.

Breton, you're beating a dead horse. I wish you were right for Zagstruck's sake. I urge you to read the rules regarding both Zagstruck and Commissar. As I've said previously, both of these make a much stronger case than Calgar and yet in FAQs and at the Las Vegas GT it was ruled that "no retreat!" applies to them (for f*ck's sake in the case of zagstruck and the commissar you actually do roll dice and fail a test! That clearly shows that Trigger #1 doesn't apply yet GW has ruled consistently "no retreat!"). If you're opponent is unfamiliar with the new SM codex, zagstruck, 'nids, or commissars there is a chance you will be able to pull this off but do not plan a list around Calgar expecting this to work in any other setting than a game at a FLGS.

edit: btw, in the case of Commissars and Zagstruck, the "codex trumps rulebook" line was presented with much hand-wringing to no effect.

Look, bottom line is, til an FAQ comes out you can make a case for reading it however you want. Might even be that GW FAQs it the same way you all say they will. I see more support, RAW, for No Retreat! not applying than for it.

You can cite precedence til you're blue in the face but regardless of how some Ork from last year or a political officer from a 3rd ed codex have been declared as mechanically similar, you've got nothing on Rules As Written.

Disclaimer: I don't own, use, or even like Marneus Calgar.

sourclams wrote:You can cite precedence til you're blue in the face but regardless of how some Ork from last year or a political officer from a 3rd ed codex have been declared as mechanically similar, you've got nothing on Rules As Written.

Really? You really think that? Uhhh... okay?

sourclams wrote:Look, bottom line is, til an FAQ comes out you can make a case for reading it however you want. Might even be that GW FAQs it the same way you all say they will. I see more support, RAW, for No Retreat! not applying than for it.

You can cite precedence til you're blue in the face but regardless of how some Ork from last year or a political officer from a 3rd ed codex have been declared as mechanically similar, you've got nothing on Rules As Written.

Disclaimer: I don't own, use, or even like Marneus Calgar.

As I said, good luck to anyone that uses Calgar if they want to try this. It will work against clueless players. Other things they could try including moving their guys 6 1/2" instead of 6", occasionally throwing an extra die into a roll, etc.

Because your Mom said so. Using RAW is cheating. Gotcha.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So chosing to pass a test is not automatic? Rubbish. No roll is made (despite suggested phantom dice rolls that are incosequential) so I would say you automatically passed it. Automatic means there is no chance of it not happening, so if you choose to pass, with no roll, it's automatic!

Choosing to pass a test will no roll being made and automatically passing a test with no choice in the matter can be seen as two different situations. Personally I'm undecided on the matter and can see both sides of the argument as being valid.

OK, since the term automatic is going nowhere ...how about a different direction .

The language of No Retreat on pg 44 also states "It is not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault...When such units lose a close combat, they are in danger of being dragged down..."

A morale check is defined on pg 43:
"Morale checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's leadership value."

If you choose to pass or fail (as is the case with Calgar) then you are not rolling the 2D6 and are thus not making a morale check. As such, is not Calgar immune to having to make morale checks and therefore subject to No Retreat :S?

No, he's not immune to a Morale check. His rules simply allow him to choose to pass or fail any Morale check he has to make.

Tyranid synapse specifically says that those units "can't fall back" and "automatically pass their leadership tests". No option, no choice. Not the same situation as Caligar where you can fall back and do have a choice to fail the leadership test.

Ghaz wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So chosing to pass a test is not automatic? Rubbish. No roll is made (despite suggested phantom dice rolls that are incosequential) so I would say you automatically passed it. Automatic means there is no chance of it not happening, so if you choose to pass, with no roll, it's automatic!

Choosing to pass a test will no roll being made and automatically passing a test with no choice in the matter can be seen as two different situations. Personally I'm undecided on the matter and can see both sides of the argument as being valid.

Let me just say that I've got healthy respect for your understanding of rules and their nuances, Ghaz. Both here and on Warseer when you weigh in on a YMDC-esque question, I've rarely found reading your posts to be a waste of time.

NaZ wrote:I agree with yakface here for sure

no different than if you choose to fall back with combat tactics and are caught.

if you didn't roll, then you automatically passed. simple enough

NaZ

It's not automatic. There is the *choice*. The decision is simply moved from luck (Dice) to the player. As long as there is the option to retreat, it cannot be considered automatic I'd say.

The No Retreat rule doesn't care if the player gets a choice. It only cares if the Morale Test was passed automatically.

What the *test* passed automatically.

The test is rolling dice and comparing to Ld. Did you do that, or did you just pass......

If you pass the test, without taking the test, then you passed automatically.

Choosing to pass a test will no roll being made and automatically passing a test with no choice in the matter can be seen as two different situations.

Yes, and auto passing due to Fearless and due to Synapse are also different situations. But both make you pass without taking the test.
Calgar gives you a choice, but you *still* get to pass the test without actually taking the test. You pass it automatically, the No Retreat rules don't care if the player has input into a decision or not. It only cares about the actual *test*



As for Nids. Sometimes those gaunts will fall back, and sometimes they will still take morale checks. It depends on the 'player decision' to leave them in synapse range or not.
Again, the No Retreat rule doesn't care what led up to the test, it only cares if it was passed without having to take the test.


People keep reading too much into the rule. The rule does *not* say you can't have a choice, or you can't effect things, or it can't be an option, or anything like that. It only cares if you pass automatically, if you pass without taking the test.
You can be given a choice to pass automatically.... but you still pass automatically.

Is the word "automatic" anywhere in Calgar's entry?

Because I can see the word 'Automatic' under the definition of both fearless and no retreat-and pulling out my Guard codex I even see the word 'automatic' in the Commissar entry-but I don't see the word 'automatic' in Calgar's entry. Now, you can infer whatever you like, but without the key term 'automatic', it's RAI, not RAW.

Well, the Tyranid player can CHOOSE not to be in synapse.
So OBVIOUSLY they do not take the wounds.

Right Breton?

sourclams wrote:Is the word "automatic" anywhere in Calgar's entry?

Because I can see the word 'Automatic' under the definition of both fearless and no retreat-and pulling out my Guard codex I even see the word 'automatic' in the Commissar entry-but I don't see the word 'automatic' in Calgar's entry. Now, you can infer whatever you like, but without the key term 'automatic', it's RAI, not RAW.

I pulled out my nids codex and in there it states they are assumed to "automatically" pass any leadership test if in synapse range. SO now we have multiple other rules that say its automatic. So unless Calgar's entry states they can choose to AUTOMATICALLY pass or fail leadership tests I would have to say they are not subject to No Retreat.

You guys can assume all you want that its automatic but in every other instance that GW has printed it specifically states it is automatic. I have to believe if they considered these automatic pass/fails they would have added 1 word to the codex.

So until it is FAQ'ed I am going to have to agree with sourclams here as this is RAW.

kirsanth wrote:Well, the Tyranid player can CHOOSE not to be in synapse.
So OBVIOUSLY they do not take the wounds.

Right Breton?

No:

A) It says in synapse you pass automatically.
B) That's daisychaining a few too many things together. At that point, If I choose to deepstrike my chaplain, does he take wounds before he even gets on the table because he chose not to be there?

I think I'll pass on any further comments for your strawman.

As for being immune to the morale check- they aren't. They still take it. The rulebook says roll 2D6, the codex says may choose. Last I checked codexes can still modify and alter the rulebook, and codexes still trump rule books. So if they're choosing to pass or fail, they're taking the test since if they were immune, they wouldn't be ABLE to pass or fail. An important if esoteric distinction much like rerolling immovable object/irreistable force collisions. (Must reroll all failed invuls and successul invuls for the same model for example) You still take the test, thus anything triggered by such a test is still triggered. If you played a one-off story driven mission where the first failed morale check will, from the despair caused by failed morale, summon a unit of Legion of the Damned to fight on your side, or a Greater Demon of Slaanesh to feed on your misery, etc... That would still occur.

Automatic = no way to fail in this case. The unit is incapable of falling back.

But choose....they can fall back, but choose not to.

If you want it to count as Fearless, then surely any unit which passes it test, whether through choice or not, counts as Fearless, seeing as they stuck around.

It doesn't count as Fearless. Fearless pass morale and pinning. GoW doesn't work on Pinning. Fearless is specifically mentioned in No Retreat. And there is a way to fail. Choose to. According to the Nid Player, Synapse says Automatically. Combat Tactics says automatically fail. GoW doesn't have automatically in either choice. So if GoW'ing marines were confronted with an automatic fail I'd have to say they either dice off to see which rule triumphs, or just as likely would have to choose fail.

Somnicide wrote:I will disagree, Breton. There is pretty solid precedence here in the Tyranid synapse. They aren't fearless but they still suffer from it. It is the same thing.

Its not the same thing. Synapse, firstly, apparently says assumed to automatically pass, actually using the word automatically according to a nid player who quoted it to me.
Second it says, according to the same quote from the same nid player, they don't even take them... thus invoking immunity to morale checks hitting BOTH triggers of No Retreat.


GoW doesn't prevent taking the test, just alters how you take it. Nor does it make passing automatic, since failing is still an option.

Your argument makes no sense. If you think it is not an automatic thing, then GoW should not affect an auto fail and there should be no question. It appear obvious, based on this last post of yours, that you think it should be automatic when it benefits him and not automatic when it doesn't.

Gotcha.

No, I think being able to choose to pass or fail is not automatic. I think if confronted with another rule that made morale checks automatically fail both rules would butt heads, and depending on how this hypothetical rule is worded would either cause an irresistable force/immovable object dice off every turn, or could force the SM player to have to choose to fail.

coredump wrote:The No Retreat rule doesn't care if the player gets a choice. It only cares if the Morale Test was passed automatically.

And if you have a choice in the matter, then it was not passed 'automatically'. For it to be passed 'automatically' you would not have a choice in the matter. You don't 'automatically' pass a test if you have the choice to pass or fail said test. Forgive me for bringing the dictionary into this discussion but I feel it clarifies the matter. From The American Heritage Dictionary:

au·to·mat·ic

ADJECTIVE: 2a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eyes in strong light. See synonyms at spontaneous.

So how can you pass a Morale test 'involuntarily' if you have a choice of passing it or not?

Remember, too, that the No Retreat! rules describes these automatically passing units as ones that "do not take Morale checks and will never fall back." Units that fall under God of War don't fit this - sometimes, they do fall back. A lot of other rules wouldn't either, EXCEPT that you're told to treat them as automatic anyway. This doesn't happen here. So, you shouldn't.

I don't see the rules debate here.

"Can choose to Pass or Fail any Morale Check they are called upon to make." -p. 84 SM Codex

The unit does take a Morale check...and then it Passes it. Where does that constitue No Retreat?

I've never seen Iron Will ruled as Fearless.