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Can someone explain to me how dawn of war does this?

Prize Support: Those prizes were awesome. Was someone complaining about that?
Dudley: “36 presents? Last year I got 37.”
Aunt Petunia: “We’ll got out and buy you two more tomorrow.”

David Strimple


Not quite that. It was just a little more exciting last year. Even people who were out of the running had the chance to win a box of guys or some other relatively small thing. I was on the low side of the event and I feel for those guys who traveled great distance to have there hopes dashed. Not hardly a plea for more loot, just some of it thrown about as booby prizes like it was last year. Harry Potter quotes indeed.

AshesNei wrote:
Then there seems to be some confusion on your part. When I talked to Donovan he said he never told you that you could do that. The gamers on the tables to either side of me brought me to the scoring guys who also had no confusion along the lines of what piece of literature takes authority on this matter, because when they found out what you did they were incensed as well.

Either I'm mistaken, your mistaken, or the judge forgot or is mistaken. In any case I have been nothing but honest in this thread and with my intentions during the game.

AshesNei wrote:Regarding why I didn't take this up with you personally Gareth, when I came to at the tournament after finding out what happened and told you, you shooed me off, told me that you got the ruling from the judge and shrugged, ignored me after that (much like when you started another whole round after I told you not to, when there was 7 minutes left for the game and the judges had already called "stop rolling". You had to get that extra attempt at shaking me off the objectives and turning the game to a massacre). I don't believe that this was all "on the level" as you state.

I didn't shoo you off. Sorry you got that impression, as it was not my intention. I would have been happy to talk to the judges with you after it. And as for the round, there were 12 minutes left. I know that because I said as much about 8x while I was playing. Things along the lines of "look we did that in way less that in 12 minutes". You even admitted after I insisted on the round and did my turn that we did indeed have time.

AshesNei wrote:You took this to a public forum, and being the individual who was the subject of what occurred, I felt it was necessary to offer my perspective. I'm sorry if I started a flamewar and I'm done with the matter.

No. I did not. Cheirmd brought this to the public eye. Some friends of mine told me that people were bad mouthing me on the internet, so I went to have a look see.

I'm also done with the matter. See that everyone? Were both done with it. We can all go home now...

Gobstomp420 wrote:Prize Support: Those prizes were awesome. Was someone complaining about that?
Dudley: “36 presents? Last year I got 37.”
Aunt Petunia: “We’ll got out and buy you two more tomorrow.”

David Strimple


Not quite that. It was just a little more exciting last year. Even people who were out of the running had the chance to win a box of guys or some other relatively small thing. I was on the low side of the event and I feel for those guys who traveled great distance to have there hopes dashed. Not hardly a plea for more loot, just some of it thrown about as booby prizes like it was last year. Harry Potter quotes indeed.

There were a number of prizes given through-out the course of the 'Ard Boyz finals. These ranged from boxes of the new washes to army figure cases to mega paint sets. Unfortunately, given the PA system, we had the judges ask the individuals who won these prizes to come pick them up in between rounds, rather than announce it (cuz you couldn't of heard it if I tried).

Roadway (shipping company) and the PA system are both in my Book of Grudges for the weekend.

Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.

Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.

biztheclown wrote:Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.

Scroll back through the posts then. Instead responding to me from like 3 pages ago .

biztheclown wrote:Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.

I have to agree with this post I am afraid. Under no circumstances would I allow this to happen against me and if a judge ruled this way I would be calling for a meeting of all of them and ask them to re-read the codex.

To be fair can someone explain to me how dawn of war rules allow you to deploy daemons differently? I cant figure out how the wording would imply that.

chiermd wrote:To be fair can someone explain to me how dawn of war rules allow you to deploy daemons differently? I cant figure out how the wording would imply that.

I believe the reason people are confused is because dawn of war states (or people incorrectly thought) that you can bring in units turn 1 that you are not designating are being held in reserve. Even if this is wrong, the matter was brought to the judges. Who apparently gave 2 different rulings. Did the two persons in question probably word their questions slightly differently (possibly causing more judge confusion)? Probably.

Anyway, they both said they're done, have agreed to disagree, and haven't posted since. That should be good enough.

I'm fine that he's done. I want to know how the wording is ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. I'm just curious about other people's interpretation and perspective.

yakface gave a detail explanation as to how the rules for daemon coming in from reserve work as well as how the DoW work. I am sure you can find it here buried amongst all the other posts.

G

chiermd wrote:I'm fine that he's done. I want to know how the wording is ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. I'm just curious about other people's interpretation and perspective.

Same here. Exactly what is so ambiguous. People keep saying it is but I have yet to see an argument that demonstrates this ambiguity.

p.s pound to a penny, if the question was asked in the context of droppods, terminators and demons I am willing to bet the judge was assuming Chaos SM and lesser demons and not codex demons - haven't played against them for about 6 weeks or so but don't they use normal DS rules except they don't scatter?

So, the judge just forgot that his ruling? That he told you that you could break almost all the rules in the codex? Does anyone think thats what happened?

That kinda leaves it that you, told Ash you got the ruling but didnt and then played it that way. Now thats how you cheat(actually one of the worse ones I have hard of ever during my 15 years of playing).. Too bad it will ofc get caught on when you have so many spectators... YUK :(

And regardless of what Ash sais about WC, if you share the glory you share the shame.. Is this how you guys play it?

Let's face it. The Daemon player cheated and used the cover and confusion of a possible erroneous judges ruling to hide behind that fact. In the end it is not the dark Elder players responsibility to make sure the Daemon player is playing on the up and up, it is the Daemon players responsibility to make sure he is playing on the up and up.

GW expects it's players to abide by the rules and not look for a possibile loophole in wording when the community at large does not believe there is one. Hide behind ignorance all you want, the man cheated. It wasn't a huge cheat like claiming all your models move 16" a turn, more like always fleeting an extra inch or measuring a little long when it is helpful. Some people call it cheating and some people call it gamemanship.

I can see how it made such an big difference in the course of the game. First you get the entire linchpin to the whole army down right away and with no scatter, then you bring in the most powerful units (crushers) off the icons which were illegally placed to begin with. Nice form. Good win. You can keep the Ork sword, but your punishment will be the picture GW has of you on the website. Goodluck trying to go to a major tournement outside your local area. People will know and they will be watching. We had names and a few pictures at Adepticon in the past of people who had a 'judge' over their shoulders every turn of every game. Welcome to the club.

Ultramar Custodian wrote:I seem to be missing something, because I don't quite understand the controversy.

Dawn of War scenario doesn't have anything to do with Daemon deployment. Daemons always Deep Strike and can do so on turn 1.

regardless of scenario.

What exactly did the judge say that allowed Gareth to do anything that was out of the ordinary?

Normally you divide your army into 2 groups, and roll a d6, depending on what the roll half of your army will come down first turn at the same time and then you ds the rest in normally starting turn 2. Well the gw judge who (dropped the ball here) said that the ENTIRE daemon army comes down first turn which gave the daemon player a huge advantage.

Now im not saying the daemon player cheated but this is not the first time I have heard gw judges dropping the ball on rules. This is the reason I didn't even attempt to go to the finals. IMO gw needs to remove their current judges and replace them with ones who know the rules or at least put a system in place where a WRONG ruling can be argued so the judges dont make them selves look like fools and the winner of a 3 month long torny is not decided by a judges ruling that is WRONG.

With that said grats to the daemon player, it takes skill to get that far with daemons.

After lurking this post (and loving every second of it), I have a question:

First, you all wanted to hear Gareth's side of it, or else it wasn't true and was just some guy spreading rumors.
Gareth posted.
Then, you all wanted to hear the DE player's side of it, or else it was just a butthurt opponent trying to make Gareth look bad.
He posted.
NOW, you all want to hear from the judge?

Come on guys, stop giving Gareth outs. Its a little more than obvious by now that he cheated, and on top of that tried to use a judge as a scapegoat. If what was said is true, and he did have a copy of the playtest Daemon Codex, you'd think he would know how his codex worked, in and out, and that this situation wouldn't even pop up for him unless he was specifically looking to abuse the wording


And, just to play devil's advocate...when you get to a level of tournament like the 'Ard Boyz finals, you should expect powergaming, and rules lawyering, and even shady interpretations of wordings. I'm not laying the blame on the DE player, but perhaps if we learn anything from this, it should be that if something sounds fishy to you, call a judge DURING the round, when the problem can be fixed, not after it when the judges' hands are tied?

It's not about the judges they cant make a wrong call on a rule that was never asked. According to them they said they never made that ruling. I believe the judges they worked hard to run a good tournament 95% of everything else requires us to police ourselves. There were only 2 judges at the tourney for ard boyz and the winner looks quite unique espicially since he had his sunglasses on the entire time while indoors. I read Yakface's posting I still dont see the ambiguity in Dawn of War where it says deploys your WHOLE army via deep strike. Deep strike comes in via reserves. If there was any ambiguitity then you walk them on the board from your table edge, but of course close combat Daemons would get killed by shooty DE. I agree with Bunker you expect power gaming and maybe stretching the rules but definitely not completely ignoring core rules of your army. It's like me saying nope during dawn of war my necrons dont phase out if I go below 25% because it says my whole army can be on the board. What?!

here is a line in the sand... Some people want Gareth's head on a stick... Some people are understanding. I know I got the shaft in a local tourney regarding DoW deployment because I did not know the rules as well as I should have. Did my opponent intentionally screw me? No way but I bet he interpreted the rules the way that looked the best to him at the time. I know him well and he would never cheat but we are all human. Of course we have to an acceptable limit or the game would simply be no fun at all. The size of the crusher bases is on question. We know a judge was involved in the ruling. Many of us have been the victim of a bad call by the judge... it happens. So we can move on or get down and roll in the SH*T. I am sure everyone hear has done at least one thing at one time that was questionable. Those screaming for blood are by no means saints. Gareth has publicly stated his name here and I think all the detractors should have the courtesy to do the same... that is if you are for real and have some balls.

G

Now your making fun of the dude's sunglasses? Where does it end with you people? Are you seriously getting your kicks flaming people? You guys are worse than stelek...

This is not the first time judges have made controversial rulings. AGAIN, it seems the questions you two asked the judges were slightly different, so it's easy to assume he doesn't remember "OMG you let a daemon player DS turn 1?" when that's not what Garth asked. He asked if reserves like daemons (and other things) can be brought in turn 1 if they are not held back.

And for those of you who haven't even read through the whole thread like you lot (DarthDigger still thinks he didn't scatter...) that just recently posted on this page: He didn't even DS his whole army in the first place. Stop flaming.

There was a GW judge a couple pages back who said he hasn't heard of any of this, from EITHER side. What does that tell you?

I believe he did ask, as he said. I bet if you guys went together to the judges and talked it over it would be fine. But instead you want to tarnish someones name, who (as GBF says) had the balls to give his name.

The GW official himself is in this thread. If he thought some horrible "cheating" as what you idiots keep spouting went on, then he wouldn't be awarding the prizes now would he?

Both Gareth and the DE player have agreed to disagree and stopped posting. When are you people gonna stop? Not only did you beat the dead horse to a pulp, but now your resurrecting it, killing it, and doing it all over again...

proximity wrote:Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.

The Ardboyz is not really representative though, in that it’s a free-to-play (except traveling) tournament series, with substantial prize support, and specifically focused and only scored on pure battles. No sportsmanship is scored. No painting is scored or even required (a friend of mine played a guy who still had mold lines and sprue bits all over his entirely-unpainted army- in the final). The latter factor, combined with the unusually high points level, makes it easier and more likely for players to use armies or units they are less familiar with, which in turn makes it more likely that they will make rules mistakes.

When the barriers to entry are low and the stakes are high (very nice prizes + bragging rights), IMO the environment becomes a little more conducive to disagreements and unpleasantness.

Despite all that, from what I saw, with the exception of the scheduling/third game length problem that was beyond the staff’s control, the event as a whole went very well. I didn’t get to participate in it because I had an unbreakable scheduling conflict the morning the first qualifier started, but I got to the store in the afternoon and saw a fair amount of it. A friend of mine came down from Maine to my local store for the regional too, and I hung out and got to watch some of that. I had two friends in the finals and was flying in for the GT, so I watched some of the finals too. Most of the games seemed to be very cordial and smooth. There were definitely some disagreements, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.

The Baltimore GT this year, despite having no comp scoring (which I prefer) was still a ton of fun. I had five excellent opponents- all really pleasant guys and skilled opponents. The organization, rules, and missions were top notch. I really think the current Community Events Team has their stuff down pretty tight. Any improvements I could suggest (and I will) will be minor tweaks. I’d definitely encourage you to try out one of the bigger US events at some point. Baltimore is a classic since it’s the US HQ, and tends to be the biggest; though if you’re Down Under, Las Vegas is geographically closer and is also very-well attended. Adepticon is possibly the most impressive and acclaimed of the Independent US events. I’ll wager good money that if you were to come over you wouldn’t regret it.

Budzerker wrote:Now your making fun of the dude's sunglasses? Where does it end with you people? Are you seriously getting your kicks flaming people? You guys are worse than stelek...

This is not the first time judges have made controversial rulings. AGAIN, it seems the questions you two asked the judges were slightly different, so it's easy to assume he doesn't remember "OMG you let a daemon player DS turn 1?" when that's not what Garth asked. He asked if reserves like daemons (and other things) can be brought in turn 1 if they are not held back.

And for those of you who haven't even read through the whole thread like you lot (DarthDigger still thinks he didn't scatter...) that just recently posted on this page: He didn't even DS his whole army in the first place. Stop flaming.

There was a GW judge a couple pages back who said he hasn't heard of any of this, from EITHER side. What does that tell you?

I believe he did ask, as he said. I bet if you guys went together to the judges and talked it over it would be fine. But instead you want to tarnish someones name, who (as GBF says) had the balls to give his name.

The GW official himself is in this thread. If he thought some horrible "cheating" as what you idiots keep spouting went on, then he wouldn't be awarding the prizes now would he?

Both Gareth and the DE player have agreed to disagree and stopped posting. When are you people gonna stop? Not only did you beat the dead horse to a pulp, but now your resurrecting it, killing it, and doing it all over again...

Hey Bud we get it. You joined on Monday to defend your friend good job. You don't want to hear any more said about this. You want it to go away. You want us to forget. You don't want to answer Bitz's question and instead ignore it with a backhanded comment. If you are done you can leave this thread now. Stop policing it with your own agenda. I did read all the posts. The crushers didn't scatter because the icons in troop squads were already down. Unless you have something more to say besides "hey everyone shut up' you can ignore this thread and spend more of your 25 posts in your fluffy thread.

So who was it that said GW should NOT have official tests to become a judge again?

There's a reason why the Magic card game makes you plow through dozens of pages of questions before even giving you a local-level judge badge.

DarthDiggler wrote:\Hey Bud we get it. You joined on Monday to defend your friend good job. You don't want to hear any more said about this. You want it to go away. You want us to forget. You don't want to answer Bitz's question and instead ignore it with a backhanded comment. If you are done you can leave this thread now. Stop policing it with your own agenda. I did read all the posts. The crushers didn't scatter because the icons in troop squads were already down. Unless you have something more to say besides "hey everyone shut up' you can ignore this thread and spend more of your 25posts in your fluffy thread.

The Paaaaain......

Perhaps you did read. But you lack reading comprehension. Did they not teach that in your school? What was ACTUALLY said was he started his troops in reserve anyway, not that they were on the board sporting icons. He also said they didn't end up coming in for like 2 turns. When they did, THEN they came off icons that were already on the board.

So now your up on the (dead) high horse your beating. What about your agenda? You gonna embark on a crusade now? Sounds to me you just want to get your kicks by flaming people, and now you've picked on me. Ohhh my poor thread.. it can never survive now that mr diddler has called me out...

Can we Lock this yet?

proximity wrote:Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.

Mannahnin basicly said it all.

The 'Ardboyz is a separate event put on by the trade sales department and has nothing to do with the GTs.

The GTs get nothing but rave reviews. If you were to go to one, you should go to the Las Vegas GT.

Second the locking. The way the guy worded the question is suspect, especially if he plays as well as all of you he would know the two armies he lumped in with his demons functioned completely differently. The other guy should have known the enemy rules and forced a ruling at the table. That's all that can be said. Lock and load this baby.

I would bet $$$ to donuts a lot of the fresh faced new users posting here against Gareth are either one in the same or close friends of the disgruntled DE player. I would love to see a list of the IP addresses.

G

WhiteDevil wrote:

I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.

1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).

2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.


-Gareth-

Hey Bud. He said almost all troops in reserve, that ment some started on the table illegally. He said units came on in subsequent turns off icons. Now look at what the DE player said.

"He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).

He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise. "

This means the crushers came out on turn 1, after troops were deployed with icons around Fateweaver. Bud you make no sense. Keep up the personal attacks though, it is really helping your and youir friends reputation.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I would bet $$$ to donuts a lot of the fresh faced new users posting here against Gareth are either one in the same or close friends of the disgruntled DE player. I would love to see a list of the IP addresses.

G

I would to seeing as the newest poster is Gareth's best friend Bud who joined Monday. After that one poster is a month old, another is 2 months old and everyone else seems to be years old on this site. Next excuse for cheating please.