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rcm2216 wrote:

What army did you play against. How did the battles go down.............

I played against nids, and then 2 of the 3 DE players. As for the battles, I would have to type up a whole Battle Report. Which of course would be inappropriate in this thread. I personally had no problems with any opponents, the games all went fairly smoothly, despite the time issue of course. As I've stated already, it was a great event, with great support, and an over-all friendly atmosphere.

I am not jaded in any way, and as Ozymandias, King of Kings stated above, I will not "let anyone put an * next to [my] Ardboyz win"

They are just hating because daemons aren't supposed to be able to win ;-) Usually when I win people think the same thing - they see daemons and the interwebs have told them that daemons are autolose and then if you win it had to have been because of either lucky/unlucky dice or shenanigans.

Seriously though, what did your list look like? I heard Kairos and some crushers, I would like to see the whole thing if you don't mind - you can just link me if it is posted elsewhere.

Congrats again!

So, out of curiosity, Devil, what are you going to choose for your army?

WhiteDevil wrote:Ah. I love Gamer gossip.

Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.

I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.

1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).

2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.

3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.

4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.

So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.

Have a nice night.

-Gareth-

Ok.

Firstly, Hello everyone! I'm a long-time dakka/warseer lurker but almost never a poster. One of those internet wallflower types I suppose.

The only reason I'm coming out and posting all of a sudden is this: I was that Dark Eldar player Gareth Hunt cheated on round 2.

Yes I know, cheated is a very strong word and should neither be used either lightly or without merit. Let me examine why precisely I feel it is merited.

1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.

It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in

Gareth did none of this.


He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).

He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.

All this of course after I mentioned that I had never played against demons before nor did I know anything about the list. Gareth knew the demon codex, heck, he told me that the wrecking crew gave him a copy of the pre-release codex and he was playtesting it before it even came out.

Also, regarding him getting an affirmative to pull this stuff off via one of the judges? When I found out about how he outright cheated in that game I told the gentleman taking scoring and organizing. He regretted that he could not change the scoring or do anything, but suggested that I inform Gareth that he was wrong and shouldn’t do that in the future.

I did, he told me that, “The black judge told me I could, and they let me do it in the semis”. The gentleman to whom he was referring to is Donovan, whom I asked about this. Donovan seemed incredulous that it was even suggested he had authorized such a blatant rules violation. He also stated that other people had complained about Gareth’s mis-sized bases on his bloodcrushers and that this wasn’t the first complaint.

Now I have to say this. I like the wrecking crew, I partied with them on the following night and played with them thereafter. I fought for first place with Neal Cauley in the GT on Sunday and they’re a great bunch of guys. Gareth’s chicanery does not speak for their group or represent their play-style in the slightest. Neal was an amazing player, but a fair and honest one and I’ve got nothing but good things to say about the rest.

Gareth’s outright cheating in the Ard’ boys finals and then winning the whole shebang leaves a sour taste in the mouths of all honest players that worked hard to get to that tournament however, and I wanted to get that off my chest.

@AshesNei,
Gareth already admitted to a "conversion mistake" in a previous tournament when he used smaller bases which, when involving units that need table space to avoid a DS error is an important consideration. In another thread I observed that unless you purchase and memorize every codex you are going to get hosed. It appears that this is what happened to you.

AshesNei wrote:
1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.

It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in

Gareth did none of this.

I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.

AshesNei wrote:He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).

He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.

Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.

AshesNei wrote:Also, regarding him getting an affirmative to pull this stuff off via one of the judges? When I found out about how he outright cheated in that game I told the gentleman taking scoring and organizing. He regretted that he could not change the scoring or do anything, but suggested that I inform Gareth that he was wrong and shouldn’t do that in the future.

I did, he told me that, “The black judge told me I could, and they let me do it in the semis”. The gentleman to whom he was referring to is Donovan, whom I asked about this. Donovan seemed incredulous that it was even suggested he had authorized such a blatant rules violation. He also stated that other people had complained about Gareth’s mis-sized bases on his bloodcrushers and that this wasn’t the first complaint.

That's not quite what I said. I told you again about my previous ruling. To which you responded you asked as well. I asked you which judge, and then told you it was the other. I also said that's the way it was ruled in the semis. If you wanted to discuss it further, I would have been glad to, which hopefully would have avoided all this.

I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."

Also, you should go through and read this thread. The bases have been explained several times.

AshesNei wrote:Gareth’s outright cheating in the Ard’ boys finals and then winning the whole shebang leaves a sour taste in the mouths of all honest players that worked hard to get to that tournament however, and I wanted to get that off my chest.

Everything I did was on the level dude. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. I played a fair and honest game in the manner I thought was correct at the time. Whether I/the judge made a mistake is irrelevant we both did what we thought was correct. Everything was on the level. What is a detriment to the gaming community is people like yourself whom, instead of just talking to the person they have a problem with, and working it out that way, they go and spout lies to whoever will listen.

Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.

This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.

This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?

Pretty sure he mentioned earlier that he deepstruck stuff in on turn one, scattered everything - but rolled a large number of hits.

What were the prizes?

proximity wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.

This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?

Pretty sure he mentioned earlier that he deepstruck stuff in on turn one, scattered everything - but rolled a large number of hits.

Yeah but;

AshesNei wrote:
He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).

The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.

I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...

Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...

The thread should not be locked because you do not like AshesNei's post. There are many many people on dakkadakka who complain about the weaknesses of GW rules in general and problems in tournament settings in particular. This thread is throwing some light--perhaps unwelcome light--on these issues.

What is the loot.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.

I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...

Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...

I second the motion. Before I become more disenchanted with a gaming community I've been a member of for 13 years...

donovan can settle this and anyone else who played him to verify the size base he used.

G

olympia wrote:
The thread should not be locked because you do not like AshesNei's post. There are many many people on dakkadakka who complain about the weaknesses of GW rules in general and problems in tournament settings in particular. This thread is throwing some light--perhaps unwelcome light--on these issues.

No, it should be ended because this is going nowhere. And it's not like we don't have plenty of other anti-gw threads. Have any of them ever solved anything? No. And neither will this.

WhiteDevil wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.

I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...

Ahh, then if you kept other stuff in reserve anyway...big farking deal. Gratz again on your win.

/Although I said the argument that DOW allows everything turn 1 was plausible, I think the Demon Assault rules over the mission. I can appreciate the question though !

AgeOfEgos wrote:Although I said the argument that DOW allows everything turn 1 was plausible, I think the Demon Assault rules over the mission. I can appreciate the question though !

I wasn't sure which took priority. Hence why I asked the question that started all this mess...

WhiteDevil wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.

I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...

Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...

I second the motion. Before I become more disenchanted with a gaming community I've been a member of for 13 years...

Congrats, what did you win.

I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.

No disputes that you can come in on turn 1 from reserves but why do you think that you dont have to seperate them into 2 groups like the codex says? It says At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units. Then you must face the unfathomable judgement of the Gods of Chaos, and nominate which of the two groups you wish to make a 'Daemonic Assault' at the beginning of the battle. Pick one of the two groups and pray to the Dark Gods by rolling a D6. On a 3-6 the Powers of Chaos agree with your choice, but on a 1-2 they choose the other group. The remaining units are held in reserve. I dont understand why you get to ignore this clearly stated rule.

Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.

You can bring your units in on turn 1 via deep strike the issue is how you deployed such a large amount of your army on turn 1 without following the rules stated in codex daemons. Interesting thing about the bases, didnt know that, but it doesnt surprise me.

I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."

I asked Donovan and the other Ard Boy judge about the question about the daemons and neither recalled being asked your question by you and stated that what had happened was incorrect and certainly not in the spirit of the game.

Everything I did was on the level dude. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. I played a fair and honest game in the manner I thought was correct at the time. Whether I/the judge made a mistake is irrelevant we both did what we thought was correct. Everything was on the level. What is a detriment to the gaming community is people like yourself whom, instead of just talking to the person they have a problem with, and working it out that way, they go and spout lies to whoever will listen.

The guy is just pissed that he was taken advantage of when you broke your own rules. The poor guy probably had to take days off of work, fly to Baltimore, get a hotel, and then play thinking that his opponent was being honest. What's he suppose to do what's done is done, but dont pretend the victory was pure. There's no benefit in him lying, but at least he can tell people what happened so it wont happen again. The game is over congrats on your "*victory*"

Prize was a warhound Titan and 6 Battleforce Boxes of Ravenwing, and something else I think. Oh BTW the criticism was never about the judges I thought that they did an amazing job given there were 2 of them and 50 of us which requires honest players to police themselves. There is no way that they can police that many games. Other than the time at the end which they were not able to control I thought it was an awesome time.

Perhaps if the DE player had done what White suggested and worked it out amongst themselves, they could have both gone to the judge.

It's conceivable that Donnovan doesn't remember a question of that "YAY Daemons can ignore their codex and DS turn 1". Because that's not exactly what was asked. Look at how he worded the question. It wasen't exclusively about daemons, but about reserves including daemons.

Perhaps if you guys hope off that dead high horse your beating and lighten up, you'd see that.

What ever happened to people being civil? This all could have been solved by the 2 opponents in question settling it amongst themselves. It didn't have to turn into this slander-fest.

Budzerker wrote:

What ever happened to people being civil?

It seems pretty civil that everyone allows him to use smaller bases on his deepstriking army.

olympia wrote:
It seems pretty civil that everyone allows him to use smaller bases on his deepstriking army.

Calling that small thing "civil" and then doing what they are doing now...

That's like saying: "I'll give you this dollar if you let me tell all your family and friends your a child-molester... "

:S

This is the final round of the Ard boyz

While I think that the judges got it wrong.

Not having played a Demon army is not an excuse for letting something like this happen to you. The codex it out. Read up on it like everyone else. At the end of the day there were at least 5 turns. Both players had a chance to win in those 5 turns. "Smaller bases" and an incorrect deployement may have helped some and I use the word may here. But it certainly would not have decided the battle. Personally when I play Demon armies I just put all my army in reserve. I have an Eldar force and having all his stuff in with my mobility allows me alot more latitude to shape the battlefield. With a mobile army like the Dark Eldar I would expect the same would work. I am sure his intent was to fortress up with the crushers/fatweaver and expand but again that can be worked out.

I think it sucks someone feels cheated and another may feel picked on. I applaud both of you for coming on and explaining yourselves. But it is called Ard boyz. Know the armies you are up against before you show up and be prepared for anything.

I was not in Baltimore for the event so i can't give any eye witness account but if White Devil said he used the 60 mm bases I trust him. White Devil played on my Adepticon team this year and there were no issues about the rules during of the four games and we played together twice.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I was not in Baltimote for the event so i can't give any eye witness account but if White Devil said he used the 60 mm bases I trust him. White Devil played on my Adepticon team this year and there were no issues about the rules during of the four games and we played together twice.

I had the bases. Showed em' to my opponents. Told them why the figs are the way they are and left it completely up to them.

WhiteDevil wrote:

AshesNei wrote:
1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.

It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in

Gareth did none of this.

I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.

AshesNei wrote:He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).

He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.

Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.

I popped in to this thread as I saw it go to four pages. The more I read the less I understand. You knew your rules and yet you deployed units on the 1st turn and didn't follow the deployment rules from your codex. How is that not strectching the rules when you personally know those rules? Why would you need a ruling when it is so cut and dried. Just play as your codex dictates. Since how will playing by the codex ever be cheating unless a mission specific over-rules it - a mission that follows DOW rules from the BGB would not trump codex. The rules are pretty damn clear.

Seems to me that if we ignore the word "cheating" that game was not played by the rules and that cannot be argued with.

As to those that say close the thread, this seems a totally valid topic that has totally changed since the DE person added some rather pertinent missing details to the argument.

fullheadofhair wrote:
I popped in to this thread as I saw it go to four pages. The more I read the less I understand. You knew your rules and yet you deployed units on the 1st turn and didn't follow the deployment rules from your codex. How is that not strectching the rules when you personally know those rules? Why would you need a ruling when it is so cut and dried. Just play as your codex dictates. Since how will playing by the codex ever be cheating unless a mission specific over-rules it - a mission that follows DOW rules from the BGB would not trump codex. The rules are pretty damn clear.

Before someone else posts, for the millionth time dude, there are people out there who don't think it was that cut and dry. What don't you get about that? What do you do when your not sure about a rule? Ask a judge. And that's what was done.

WhiteDevil wrote:

That's not quite what I said. I told you again about my previous ruling. To which you responded you asked as well. I asked you which judge, and then told you it was the other. I also said that's the way it was ruled in the semis. If you wanted to discuss it further, I would have been glad to, which hopefully would have avoided all this.

I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."

Also, you should go through and read this thread. The bases have been explained several times.

Then there seems to be some confusion on your part. When I talked to Donovan he said he never told you that you could do that. The gamers on the tables to either side of me brought me to the scoring guys who also had no confusion along the lines of what piece of literature takes authority on this matter, because when they found out what you did they were incensed as well.

When I qualified for the semis I figured it was a fluke. When I qualified for the finals, I had no intention of going, couldn't afford it really. My friends all encouraged me to suck it up and go, and I did. I have no "cronies" and I came to the event by myself and knew no one. This was my first major tournament ever. I had a great time with this second match of the Ard Boys finals being the only exception.

I've said my piece on this and have no reason to lie, I feel that you took advantage of someone who didn't know the rules and that's my bad. I wont let it happen again, picked up the codex as soon as I got home.

Regarding why I didn't take this up with you personally Gareth, when I came to at the tournament after finding out what happened and told you, you shooed me off, told me that you got the ruling from the judge and shrugged, ignored me after that (much like when you started another whole round after I told you not to, when there was 7 minutes left for the game and the judges had already called "stop rolling". You had to get that extra attempt at shaking me off the objectives and turning the game to a massacre). I don't believe that this was all "on the level" as you state.

You took this to a public forum, and being the individual who was the subject of what occurred, I felt it was necessary to offer my perspective. I'm sorry if I started a flamewar and I'm done with the matter.