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Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.

lol after going to the finals last year Im glad I made the decision to skip it this year .. My fears of more debacles werent unfounded

Saving travel money ftw

IIRC, which I don't have the book at work, DOW still uses the reserve rule as well (You can place units in reserve as normal). So I don't see why the Demons would be played differently due to scenario? *Shrug*, give us a 40k Demon FAQ please.

I think it would be insulting to release a FAQ that says

Q: Do Demons come in from reserve?
A: Yup!

Could always just not make completely wrong rulings imo

If a mission says that all the rest of your army comes in on turn 1, but the army rules are that its turn 2, I think its more than fair enough to say to a judge "hey, I'm a little confused on how you want to play this, could you please make a ruling?".

The only thing that has saved this thread from marring the entire US scene (throwing cheating accusations around right of the bat is pretty weak) has been Chris Gohlinghorst's genuine requests for feedback to improve, as well as interacting and being completely approachable. You guys honestly don't know how lucky you are to have someone who's not completely apathetic in charge of your tourneys, let alone someone you can actually approach and talk to.

To compare it to what you could have, I once won a GT with a total score of something like 180, a full 15 points or so ahead of whoever was second... except the maximum score you could get in the tournament was 77.
Two weeks later when they realised it might have actually been quite beneficial to read your own players pack for the tournament you're running, everyone had to play musical trophies.
Then they just decided the tournaments weren't economical enough to run, nor were they worth the effort, so decided to scrap them completely, and we now only have the GT because members of the community have stepped in (increasing the quality 10 fold in the process).

We would KILL to have someone like Chris down here, seriously... you should appreciate it.

If a mission says that all the rest of your army comes in on turn 1, but the army rules are that its turn 2, I think its more than fair enough to say to a judge "hey, I'm a little confused on how you want to play this, could you please make a ruling?".

That's only because for some reason 90% of 40ks tend NOT to read what Dawn of War actually says.. During 'ard boyz I literally had to remind the entire tournament 3 times that your units are NOT in reserve, they simply move on from the board edge.. However if you read BELOW that part it says "Units in reserve still come on via reserve rules" (Obviously that is paraphrased)

There is no confusion, just another example of people not reading what dawn of war says

Kirasu wrote:
That's only because for some reason 90% of 40ks tend NOT to read what Dawn of War actually says.. During 'ard boyz I literally had to remind the entire tournament 3 times that your units are NOT in reserve, they simply move on from the board edge..

So if you had to keep reminding the entire tournament, shouldn't Gareths confusion on the matter be more than understandable (as you say that everyone else needed clarification as well), and asking a judge for clarification on what he should do be the end of the matter? If theres any ill will on the matter, surely it can't be directed at him, but rather at a possible inconsistency in judgements, which Chris has asked for details on so he can remedy for the future?
I can't see any more amicable a solution than what's currently underway.

Also, being a new edition - I wouldn't be so rough on people for not knowing it like the back of their hand yet.

I have no quarrel with Gareth, I didnt attend for the reasons listed in this thread (I am weak on faith)

All I want to know is if the judge who made the ruling name started with a D

Congrats Gareth?

Are all your Blood Crushers still on the smaller bases?

Hey all. Here's my two cents, wanted or not. I had the esteemed honor of pulling dead last this year. Had some great games and terrible dice, but a blast nonetheless. Any ruling prblems and late starts aside, I thought it odd and maybe a sign of the times with the lessening of prize support. Not to say that the prizes given were shabby. On the contrary, they were great. And I love that as a complete loser, I got a fantasy army to take home. But last year, part of the fun was the random prizes won during the games for odd things. "First person to lose an HQ.....Baneblade for you!" It was great for people like me, who came just for the 'Ard boyz and didn't play in the GT. I feel a bit for people who placed in the middle. But, like I said, probably a sign of the times. I still had a blast and look forward to seeing if I can lose as badly next year. Thanks a lot to the guys who kicked me about, I had a great time losing!

I think Chris is doing a great job. The terrain trukk arriving late was beyond his control and I am sure they will prepare next year with this in mind.

Again great job White Devil! You rawked their world!

G

Mahu wrote:Congrats Gareth?

Are all your Blood Crushers still on the smaller bases?

No. The only time I ever used just the smaller bases was in the first local RTT I used them in. I based them off the older, much smaller BC (which I have a few of) and not the newer one, as I hadn't seen them in person at the time. After that I bought a bunch of 60mm gale force nine magnetic bases and magnetized them. So they can be on either or. I brought my 24 60mm magnetic bases ready and willing to sue them. Before each and every round I left it up to my opponent as to which bases they wanted me to use. Technically I have more of an advantage with the larger bases (extra movement from the DS, less vulnerable to blasts, way easier to multi-charge), but I still ended up using the smaller bases as per my opponents request. Most didn't seem to care either way. As per 5th edition rules, any differing base sizes require opponent permission, hence why I left it up to them.

EDIT: Although as a side note, I heard later on from a friend the "whisperings" about my smaller bases. If said individuals had just asked me about them, they would have gotten the above explanation. But I guess they were content to whisper bad things to themselves. Quite the friendly gaming community eh?

Aduro wrote:Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.

I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think Chris is doing a great job. The terrain trukk arriving late was beyond his control and I am sure they will prepare next year with this in mind.

Again great job White Devil! You rawked their world!

G

Thanks again GBF, and I agree, Chris did try to do the best he could with what he had. We can't really ask for anything more.

"I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling."

I agree with folks nope I wasnt there I'm not the DE player, but the DE player seemed pretty upset when he figured out what happened. He was definitely a great player and guy who IMO really has no reason to spread this. Here's a question for you though if you "deep struck half you army in anyways why arent you just flat out denying impropriety instead of stating that it was a judging issue. If you really deep struck half your army then you played the rules correctly thus the confusion however you state below.

1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).

Why would you think the issue would come up? If you really kept half your army off the board then what you really should be saying is no I never did that and there was no issue with the judges. Why would you ask the judge anything? Either you played it correctly or you didnt and at the level of the finals for the Ard Boyz people KNOW their rules for THEIR codex.

2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.

The scatter issue is with the DE player he says you placed instead of scatter on turn one because of a chaos icon thus placing all your troops neatly arranged around Fateweaver.

3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.

Thats very nice that you went to every length that he understood your army. Did you explain to your opponent that you were to divide your army in half, pick one of them and then roll to see if the chaos gods favored you? The poor guy never heard anything about that and I'm sure would have prompted him to ask a judge about the deep striking.

4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.

When ALL the judges were approached about the issue no judge stated that they ruled it that way and in fact stated that you played it illegally. Hey man if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but it sounds incredibly suspect.

Were all the judges approached? And why didnt the DE player ask a judge on the spot?

Im sorry, but this seems like beating a dead horse.

It reminds me of my counter strike days where someone got killed and instantly blamed the guy who killed him using an aim bot or wall hacking.

Darkness wrote:Were all the judges approached? And why didnt the DE player ask a judge on the spot?

Im sorry, but this seems like beating a dead horse.

Agreed.



chiermd - I'm gonna assume you're trolling, as he's obviously not saying he deployed the daemons via normal circumstances, but rather that he chose to keep about half the units back in reserve anyway, despite being told by a judge that they could all come down in turn one if he wished.
Any of these that came down in subsequent turns would have popped down off icons.
He clearly only mentioned it as you were initially claiming that he left none in reserve at all.

Its one thing to spark e-drama that has nothing to do with you because you're bored, but its another to start cramming words down the poor guys throat.

chiermd wrote:I agree with folks nope I wasnt there I'm not the DE player, but the DE player seemed pretty upset when he figured out what happened. He was definitely a great player and guy who IMO really has no reason to spread this. Here's a question for you though if you "deep struck half you army in anyways why arent you just flat out denying impropriety instead of stating that it was a judging issue. If you really deep struck half your army then you played the rules correctly thus the confusion however you state below.

I said about half my army. Implying that it really wasn't that big a deal anyway. It's obvious based on the responses in this thread alone, that not everyone thinks its an incorrect ruling. Gamers as well as the judges at the event obviously have different opinions on the matter. As proximity pointed out, your twisting my words.

chiermd wrote:If you really kept half your army off the board then what you really should be saying is no I never did that and there was no issue with the judges. Why would you ask the judge anything?

See above. Again, your twisting my words. It was a preemptive question. Not knowing whom my opponent would be, I may have DS'ed my whole army in. I may not have. The ruling was the same at my semi-final location and I wanted to see how the official GW judges would rule it. As you should know by now, the guy I talked to ruled the same way, that the mission takes priority.

chiermd wrote:The scatter issue is with the DE player he says you placed instead of scatter on turn one because of a chaos icon thus placing all your troops neatly arranged around Fateweaver.

One of you are very mistaken on this front my friend. Most of my units got a "hit" on the scatter dice. But one or two of them did scatter. My Keeper was out of the 6inch bubble for instance. The POINT is, I DID roll my scatter dice for EVERY unit. It's a pretty big accusation to say something so fundamental was not done.

chiermd wrote:Thats very nice that you went to every length that he understood your army. Did you explain to your opponent that you were to divide your army in half, pick one of them and then roll to see if the chaos gods favored you? The poor guy never heard anything about that and I'm sure would have prompted him to ask a judge about the deep striking.

Wrong once again sir. Perhaps if you were actually there you wouldn't be trying to spread this completely unfounded accusations. I DID in fact explain to him that usually my army is deployed uniquely from reserves. Due to the judge ruling however, I was told I could bring in any unit I didn't want to hold back on turn one, as that is what the mission states.

chiermd wrote:When ALL the judges were approached about the issue no judge stated that they ruled it that way and in fact stated that you played it illegally. Hey man if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but it sounds incredibly suspect.

Again, were you there? No, thought not. My opponent approached me after the game and said A not both judge ruled differently. I told him sorry, but I got a different ruling from the a judge. He asked me which one that was and I told him. We then established it was a different judge. He shrugged and walked off. That was that. End of the issue as far as I was concerned. Apparently for some its not.

proximity wrote:
chiermd - I'm gonna assume you're trolling, as he's obviously not saying he deployed the daemons via normal circumstances, but rather that he chose to keep about half the units back in reserve anyway, despite being told by a judge that they could all come down in turn one if he wished.
Any of these that came down in subsequent turns would have popped down off icons.
He clearly only mentioned it as you were initially claiming that he left none in reserve at all.

Its one thing to spark e-drama that has nothing to do with you because you're bored, but its another to start cramming words down the poor guys throat.

Agreed. Please chermind, think next time before you embark on slandering anther's name over the internet without knowing both sides, let alone what actually happened.

I don't think you would appreciate it if the shoe were on the other foot. Instead of enjoying my first 1st place in any National event, I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth due to a few individuals such as yourself.

EDIT: Thanks for the support guys. Especially from those I don't even know.

WhiteDevil wrote:

Mahu wrote:

Aduro wrote:Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.

I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling.

The thing I don't get, is if you say codex trumps the rule book (don't know why you add "most", because unless otherwise it is FAQ, codex, BRB in authority order) it just sounds like me you were hoping for the ruling to go a particular way you wanted? why would you ask otherwise?

While I dont think the Demons should have been allowed to set up outside the codex rules. I dont see how it really matters. The following options should have been looked at by the opponent.
1. Demon player had to set up first and at that point declares whats coming on first turn or being kept in reserve. ( opponent should have looked at the lists if there was any question on what was not deployed.
2. Demon player set up second and the opponent and declared 1st turn and reserve. So unless intiative was seized at this point by the demons that is about the only way I could see it working out bad for the other guy(and maybe the opponenet was under the assumption the demons were playing by the codex but did not know a ruling had been made for the dawn of war). But it does not sound like it played out that way.
3. Demon player played the army according to the codex so the opponent would know the following because of the demon players roll.
a. what part of the army was coming in first
b. what part of the army was coming in second

Wether you played against demons or not you have the list in front of you to let you know what is on the board or off. At that point you make a tactical plan based off the knowledge. I am assuming the demon player stated what was coming on first turn and was being kept in reserve so whats the problem? He does not have to teach his opponent how to play against demons. With the demon list in hand and viewing the board I would think any opponent could still plan a battle plan.

So yeah I dont think it was ruled right. But I hardly think that was the deciding factor.

Again Congrats on the overall.

BTW still sulking over the shortened third round after 2 days

Sounds like you planned to get a diffrent ruling then whats in the rules and you did, quite impressive. Still doesnt make it any less cheating tho.

Sounds like it was played one way at a tourney he was at before, so said "hey im not sure how its supposed to go, they did it this way, but how do you want to play it?".

Assuming he knew exactly how it should be played and that he was of the opinion that it was set in stone, but fishing for an answer is pretty big as far as assumptions go. Surely a 30 second browse through the "you make the call" forum tells you there are plenty of people out there who don't know the rulebook cover to cover verbatim?

White Devil stated he had the same issue during the semis... This why he conferred with the judge.

G

I only take exception to the bases because it would make your initial deepstrike harder to place, so one can argue that you have an advantage either way. But if you got opponents permission, then that is between the two of you.

As far as the judge ruling, I am trying hard to understand the situation here. Your codex always trumps your mission set up, it is a fundamental balancing point with that codex. Why would you have even asked in the first place? To me is seems obvious that you follow the rules for Deamonic Assault over Dawn of War. However, judge ruling is judge ruling, when you attend a tournament, that is what takes precedent, so I don't think you did anything wrong.

However, I don't want it to sound like I am trying to down play your accomplishment in anyway. I am happy that one of Central Florida's better players took the top spot. Hopefully, Florida Area gamers will start to gain a reputation as top players because of this.

with Marc Parker, Brian Poole, Gareth Hunt and the Hod all living here in Florida I would say this state has an awesome reputation. Personally I believe Gareth is the best tournament player I have ever met and I am sure he will improve even more so. We traveled together a lot two years ago playing at RTTs across the state and he always seemed to finish in the top two. He also has created some armies that were copied around the country. That is saying a lot for someone only 21.

G

The sixth place finisher at 'Ard Boyz had quite a phenomenal run himself. If I understand correctly, he massacred every opponent he faced throughout the entire series of tournaments and went into his last game at the national in first place. He had a bad first and second turn and was down 10-0 going into the third turn. From that point on, he made a steady comeback until time was called and he ended up with a minor loss at 11-10. I'm not sure how a tie would have placed him, but the fact that he isn't even a regular 40k player(he gets in maybe a couple of games a month, depending on family needs and work and hasn't done a tournament in years) speaks highly of his level of skill.
He said it was an extremely good experience and he might start playing tournaments again due to the cool people he ran into throughout his series of games.
It'd be interesting to see how many other players at the tournaments have similar or equally interesting stories to put a positive spin back into this thread.

Green Blow Fly wrote:White Devil stated he had the same issue during the semis... This why he conferred with the judge.

G

So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.

He was checking since it came up before. That is smart since obviously it was not clear.

G

Danny Internets wrote:So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.

I believe the fact that he had issues with this in the semis makes it ambiguous.

Danny Internets wrote:
So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.

Kallbrand wrote:Sounds like you planned to get a diffrent ruling then whats in the rules and you did, quite impressive. Still doesnt make it any less cheating tho.

fullheadofhair wrote:

The thing I don't get, is if you say codex trumps the rule book it just sounds like me you were hoping for the ruling to go a particular way you wanted? why would you ask otherwise?

OH NOES! A tournament gamer checking to see if a mission possibly favors him or not?! No one does that! Everyone is 100% clear on the rules all the time right?

It's not like we have hundreds of pages dedicated to rule arguments on this site alone...

Asking a judge to make a ruling is HARDLY cheating. He obviously did think it was "ambiguous" (not clear), so do other people here. Or do I really have to quote all of them too? He stated several times he didn't think the rule was all that clear, and again, went to get a judge ruling. Sounds to me like you guys need to semmer and look at this more objectionably.

I think the reasoning is questionable, given that Dawn of War (by the book) makes up 1/3 of all games played. It seems like strained reasoning to think that the codex’s unique deployment rule is meant to be overridden in a third of all standard missions.

Still, Gareth clearly played very well and had a great run. Congratulations to him and to the Wrecking Crew. Cold Steel Mercs were happy to put two players in the top three (even if they were tied for third ), and had some great games along the way. I was just disappointed to miss participating again this year. Looking forward to next time!