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You did by some stretch of the imagination read the rest of the codex where it goes and lists that in addition to that each company has a dedicated Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain, along with the HQ staff etc. The addition of the Captain alone means there is more than 100 per company and your oddball idea of it being locked in at 1000 marines falls to bits.

And did you also notice that the quote you mentioned said "Space Marine", Scouts are not full Space Marines yet, so are obviously not included.

P.S. I love your little quip about how "the rest of the article is poorly conceived" yet fail to then tell us how. And then again you decide to talk about 100 man companies, when I have shown time and time again that a company is 103 Marines.

Next time try to analyse the Big Picture as I have rather than focusing on a single out of context line.

In conclusion, if you are going to insult me, at least have the balls to do it up front, not behind some tacky veneer of argument.

Gwar! wrote:Oh I understand that perfectly, that's why Most of my Original Post doest deal with fluff but rather applies logical thought to what we already know.

Unless you've actually met a space wolf then what you "already know" is based on the fluff you halfwit! You yourself have already denied the FOC as being relevant as they don't follow the fluff well enough and of course this topic is in the fluff section. How about a bit of consistency on your behalf eh?

Logically speaking a great company is much larger than a codex company or it wouldn't be called a great company now would it?

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh I understand that perfectly, that's why Most of my Original Post doest deal with fluff but rather applies logical thought to what we already know.

Unless you've actually met a space wolf then what you "already know" is based on the fluff you halfwit! You yourself have already denied the FOC as being relevant as they don't follow the fluff well enough and of course this topic is in the fluff section. How about a bit of consistency on your behalf eh?

Logically speaking a great company is much larger than a codex company or it wouldn't be called a great company now would it?

Logically Speaking a Great Tit would be bigger than you but it isn't is it?

And yet again you are focusing on out of context comments. If you actually read my Original Post (something I highly doubt) you would see that, where possible, I have tried to incorporate what fluff we have, while filling in the gaps with reasoning and Logic.

Just because something has the word "Great" in it doesn't mean it is bigger.

Gwar! wrote:You did by some stretch of the imagination read the rest of the codex where it goes and lists that in addition to that each company has a dedicated Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain, along with the HQ staff etc. The addition of the Captain alone means there is more than 100 per company and your oddball idea of it being locked in at 1000 marines falls to bits.

Ya, my oldball idea that is mentioned in every Space Marine description. I've already stated that the 1000 refers to the basc squad strength and not the entire chapter.

And did you also notice that the quote you mentioned said "Space Marine", Scouts are not full Space Marines yet, so are obviously not included.

The 10th company is counted as one of the 10 companies of the chapter, again it's not my idea.

P.S. I love your little quip about how "the rest of the article is poorly conceived" yet fail to then tell us how. And then again you decide to talk about 100 man companies, when I have shown time and time again that a company is 103 Marines.

Perhaps the quip was wrong as to explain it would be too off topic. I'm really not sure where your 103 figure for a company comes from, I see it mentioned nowhere and it appears to assume an absence of a command squad.

10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

Gwar! wrote:10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

You've provided ample evidence of your churlishness in this thread so don't play the innocent game mate. Now where does it say that the veterans of the company command squads are pulled from the first company? This thread has been nothing more than you making an assumption about the size of the great companies and attempting to run off anyone who disagrees with you. I thank you for one thing though and that is that going through the fluff I have I've realised just how much inconsistancy there is.

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

You've provided ample evidence of your churlishness in this thread so don't play the innocent game mate. Now where does it say that the veterans of the company command squads are pulled from the first company? This thread has been nothing more than you making an assumption about the size of the great companies and attempting to run off anyone who disagrees with you. I thank you for one thing though and that is that going through the fluff I have I've realised just how much inconsistancy there is.

Well, I say the Command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans because if the 5 Members were part of the Company, that would make each company 108 marines, and I didn't want to cause even more of an Aneurysm. But yeah, the fluff is Inconsistent, that's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, to take the inconsistency and try and work out the most likely situation. It's one huge thought experiment. What steams me up is the fact that I have people saying "Oh you're wrong!" and then Swearing Blind a Codex Chapter can never ever be more than EXACTLY 1000 Marines, when the fluff is inconsistent in both situations.

Good stuff good stuff!

Gwar! wrote:But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company. All their much huger pool allows them is to recruit only those they are 99% certain will survive and integrate, rather than the "oh, he has a pair and a half, grab him" criteria of the Space Wolves.

That may not be exactly true. Space marine fluff is full of stories on how exacting the recruitment process is. Even the UM fluff shows how limited their implantation process is. The difference in attrition rates during the process of creating a space marine does not necessarily have to be as large as you think it is. In the world of 40K mankind's technology is designed to be relatively durable and accessible to the ignorant. While the UM have large amounts of process tied up in their rituals there is no assurance that it is all beneficial. Much of it is probably entirely unnecessary, given all the "Dark age of technology" fluff we've got and it is clear that the UM process takes longer then the SW process.

Moreover, it does not seem logical to assume the UM have a scout company that exceeds the size of a normal company by more then 150%. It took them 250 years to replace their loss of the 1st company, which would not have been the case if they had a large influx of scouts to replace members of other companies promoted to the 1st.

Realistically, you would be correct. The Western Cultural style that Ultramar emulates has shown throughout earth's history to be able to field more soldiers of a higher quality then any other culture. However we are dealing with a fictional setting where the rules are different. In 40k, scraping by for the first 15 years of your life on a primitive world where you are lucky to live to 30 and are armed with two sticks and a rock gives you superior skills and tactical sense to someone who had good nutrition, excellent training and the wealth to spend every day training for war.

Ultramar does indeed include numerous planets (8 systems I think).
The thing is that not all of these will produce very many, if any, SM worthy recruits. I forget the names but one planet is just a big forest full of lumberjacks whilst a number are just agri worlds and then theres their ship building world which would recruit a grand total of all, except for the fleets.

The equation is sound but it seems to me that you are including populations from planets that have no ability or right to generate astartes grade recruits.

Shred at your leisure.

Stygian Mole wrote:The equation is sound but it seems to me that you are including populations from planets that have no ability or right to generate astartes grade recruits.

Dont forget that the Total Population is in the Trillions. While it has a couple of Agri worlds yes, most are hive worlds.

Ultramar doesnt have a population of trillions. Think about it. A trillion is 1000 000 000 000.
Your avg hive world, lets say, Necromunda has a population of +-32 billion yes? Now, Ultramar has +- 8 systems (Macragge, Prandium, Fleet Base, Forest, 2 Agri and lets say the rest are hive) that means you'll have around 75 Bil from the hives. The other worlds have populations of their own so they would take the total to roughly (and I am estimating here) 135 Billion souls. Most of these would be involved in the speciality of their worlds (agri for agri, tech for forges) so Ultramar's military would come to (and this is a generous estimate) 25 billion (including support and admin personnel).

It just seems to me that trillions is a bit of an optomistic term to be using outside of segmentum scales.

True, they do not have Trillions of people, but Ultramar does have at LEAST 100 Billion, which is still hundreds of times more than Fenris.
However, Necromunda has far more than 32 Billion (not sure where you got that number from) but you are vastly Underestimating the Population of Hive Worlds.

Picked up this little gem from Lexicanum (please don't hate me):

There are probably more people on Necromunda than have ever lived in the entire history of Terra up until the end of the twentieth century. An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.

Furthermore, current estimates place that number (the number of people ever born until today) at 106,456,367,669 or 106 Billion.

Now, considering that is a Full Hive World (THE Hive World so to speak), and Ultramar has Several Systems, most of Which are also heavily Populated (not to the extent of Necromunda, but still very heavily populated), it is not beyond the realms of possibility that approximately 100 Billion people live within the Ultramar Sector. Lets not forget that Ultramar is Spread over a few Star Systems, it's not all one Solar System, so there are probably a few minor worlds here and there was well, and lets not forget populated moons etc)

Ok, Shameless bump here.

Anyone else got comments?

Do they only get new guys from Fenris or are they also known to just pull people they think are awesome from anywhere they are at the time.

I think the Space Wolves might have more Marines do to them being (supposedly) some of the longest lived of the Marines also if they recruit just one person a year from every battle and there are a thousand battles then they have one thousand neophytes, some of which will get lost to implants or not returning to the fang, and then probably one third to half of them will die before reaching the position of Grey Hunter their numbers would still be higher than most other chapters.

BrotherStynier wrote:Do they only get new guys from Fenris or are they also known to just pull people they think are awesome from anywhere they are at the time.

There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

BrotherStynier wrote:I think the Space Wolves might have more Marines do to them being (supposedly) some of the longest lived of the Marines also if they recruit just one person a year from every battle and there are a thousand battles then they have one thousand neophytes, some of which will get lost to implants or not returning to the fang, and then probably one third to half of them will die before reaching the position of Grey Hunter their numbers would still be higher than most other chapters.

I already covered that. They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

Gwar! wrote:They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels
Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?
Or just seek a way to be the most elite of all chapters

It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Gwar! wrote: Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base

This is what we have been debating really.

size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

I would like to mention the Fang, being one of the largest fortresses in the Imperium would require a larger world to support its rediculous-massiveness (so tall it is a space dock) Imagine a basketball with a traffic cone on it vs a hot air ballon with a traffic cone on it.

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.


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Demogerg wrote:size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

Wulfen are controlled by Wolf Priests See: Apocalypse 13th company datasheet.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines

The original troops in each of the legions were mostly from Terra, however, they began recruiting from the planets of each primarch soon after the primarchs discovery, and it was quite some time before G-man decreed that the legions be broken up, giving plenty of time to flesh out with proper marines from the correct planet.

Gwar! wrote:
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males

This is an assumption, Correlation is different from causation, They were able to retrofit older males, recruitment MAY have been higher because of this.

Gwar! wrote:
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

This is relative, and if worded correctly to be more specific, then yes, it would be a fact. This fact also supports my arguement for your point #1

Gwar! wrote:
Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.


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Demogerg wrote:size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.

Technological advacement comes from the application of division of duties, smaller clans with low population density would not have the opprotunity to advance technologically. For example, if you look at the total population and population density of specific tribes in the polynesian islands, you will see that it requires both density and quantity to develop new technology. Also looking at these tribes you can see that simply being divided by a (relatively) small amount of water can prevent the spread of said technologies. Your sarcastic quip about my statement holds no weight and has no arguement behind it.

Gwar! wrote:

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

You have already heard my counter arguements as to why I think that most people would not want to become a Space Marine, and I think your "theory" is kind of, well, wrong.

Demogerg wrote:Wulfen are controlled by Wolf Priests See: Apocalypse 13th company datasheet.

And this is the point where you stop Posting about Space Wolves.

13th Company are NOT Space Wolves. 13th Company are Heresy Era Wolves who have been trapped in the Warp, and thus have regressed into Wulfen. Normal Space Wolves do not use Wulfen at all.

Good day to you sir.

No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

Is there anything like this known for SW: Blood Angels / Red fury ( BL / j.swallow) , pointing out that BA lost enough marines to need their successors to refill their ranks?

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?
How many BA have followed Mephiston and lived it through?
Becoming a wulfen may be a point of no return, still the danger of it isn't greater than the BA's curse.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.

SW small? Won't work with a CC-happy legion....
So, IIRC, Sallies / Raven Guard / Iron Hands were some of the smallest Legions.
And they had to recover from their "adventures" with only their homeworld as backup.
There may be not X-thousands of SW's or SW+successors as possible for other chapters.
But less SW than Sallies/RG/IH ? Small numbers will work with different tactics. With SW tactics, you would never see any SW after M33, because they had depleted their numbers too much, if there is no good recrutement source.

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Demogerg wrote:
Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either.

There is an example for Smurfs, but the OP ignores it...

Still want to see/hear about a source to find for SW recrutement rates.

Ok Gwar, then what about the Mark of the Wulfen, the player, as the commander, still has full control over the units direction. He just simply cannot be placed with another squad

1hadhq wrote:Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?

You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.


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Demogerg wrote:Ok Gwar, then what about the Mark of the Wulfen, the player, as the commander, still has full control over the units direction. He just simply cannot be placed with another squad

The "Mark of the Wulfen" is something certain Space Wolves suffer from. Under Stress they regress to a Bestial form, and change back after the Stress has passed. They are not like 13th company wulfen, who have fully and irreversibly regressed. This is normally Marked out by the Wolf Preists with some form of Ritual tattoo and kept under an extra careful eye, just in case.

Gwar! wrote:Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.

The original Space Marines were all Terrans. When the Great Crusade started, and the Emperor started finding the Primarchs, each Legion adopted their Primarch's homeworld, and in general, only recruited from there (Night Lords, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.). To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds. Some of the current Chapters recruit from multiple worlds, but in general, they only visit each world every several years (and it's usually only the fleet based chapters).

In Tales of Heresy, we find out that the 13th Company of the Space Wolf Legion were the housecarls of Russ. Russ didn't want them to join the Legion, but they insisted. Most of they didn't make it through the process, but some did, and they some of the toughest mofos in a Legion full of tough mofos.

At the time of the Heresy, they didn't give recruits as much time to 'absorb' the geneseed and implants. Due to some instability, they now try to give them more time to fully acclimate to each step. It does seem like SWs follow the Heresy-era process and tend to 'rush' the recruits through the implantation process.

It doesn't seem like the SWs have a problem maintaining an adequate standing force. Whatever the population of Fenris, it seems sufficient to keep they at operational strength. Also, GW has gone a little back and forth on the fluff. Some sources (in particular, second edition codex and the SW book series) suggests that individuals are promoted from recruit to Blood Claw to Grey Hunter and up. The third edition codex states that the whole pack is promoted as a single group.

Gwar! wrote:
No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?


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Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

Not a difference of opinion. You are just wrong. You are claiming that Space Wolves use Wulfen, when they do not.

Gwar! wrote:You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.

So, to follow your idea, if someone without facts shouldn't post, then I am sorry to inform you, it will be silent without you.

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?

You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.

So, to follow your idea, if someone without facts shouldn't post, then I am sorry to inform you, it will be silent without you

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was the one saying Wulfen were part of the Space Wolves.

Oh wait I wasn't. Look, if you are not going to post Constructively, while making sure you are not posting rubbish, do not post at all, Please.

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?


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Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

Not a difference of opinion. You are just wrong. You are claiming that Space Wolves use Wulfen, when they do not.

Ok, I was in error about Wulfen, I'll admit that.

But to tell me that i should not post in a thread about Space Wolves is just plain rude.

EDIT* and to be fair, I have been playing Space Wolves for so long I have forgotten more about Space Wolves than most people will ever know.