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Bran Dawri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There is actually nothing to suggest the Space Wolves are any larger or any Smaller than a codex chapter in the "present" of 40k, other than being 2,000 strong or so at the end of the Heresy, which doesn't mean a thing.

As I said, the view that the Space Wolves are somehow a huge legion is IMO misguided, as this entire thread is devoted to

Exactly where does it say the Wolves were 2,000 strong at the end of the Heresy? All we know is that Russ split the Legion in two to appease Guilliman. Nowhere does it say that he downsized to the number Guilliman would have liked.

Well if you wanna be that picky there is nothing to say the other Legions did so either, especially since it wasn't only Russ who opposed the Codex (although he was the only one to eventually reject it wholesale). I use 2,000 after the heresy as reasonable assumption, especialy when you factor Gullimans Personality into it (i.e. Pompous Ass-hole) who would have probably caused Great Heresy II if he didnt have his way.

Bran Dawri wrote:And not counting the lost companies (no way of counting their numbers - a shame, since they *should* count, as the *are SW, much the same way as the BT are all counted together, even though they never operate that way), I think the SW are slightly bigger than a Codex Chapter. Even if individual Great Companies are slightly smaller at a guesstimated (means I pulled it out my @$$) 90 Wolves (not counting vehicles support), there's 12 Great Companies. 12*90= 1080 Wolves.
Codex Chapter: 10*100 marines=1000 marines
1080>1000, so even at smaller individual GC's ( a notion I do not ascribe to, BTW), Wolves are bigger than a Codex Chapter.

As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

Bran Dawri wrote:In addition, while I agree that Wolves have a higher attrition rate, I posit that by far the greater part of this attrition is from the Blood Claws. Even though their individual squad size is larger in the SW Codex, the bulk of a GC's fighting force is made up of more veteran Grey Hunters, and the attrition at their level is much, much lower. All the unskilled, careless or just plain unlucky individuals have, by the time a pack promotes to GH level, been weeded out, and as such, a GH squad can continue without much more attrition for a long, long, time.
After all, SW are known as being amongst the longer-living marines, and there has to be a significant number of Wolves (past the young ' uns) that actually survive that long in nearly constant battle for this to make an impression.

I agree, but this Longevity is offset by the fact they have a much smaller recruitment pool (and therefore recruitment rate) than the Ultramarines who have literally Trillions of potential recruits at any one time.

Bran Dawri wrote:In addition, does anyone have any idea what the attrition rates are for Codex marines before they're actually elevated to actual Marines (ie, at the Scout (and before) level)? Since the BC's are the SW equivalent of scouts, part of me thinks the SW attrition levels are artificially higher than Codex Chapters, as the CM (Codex Marines) cheat by counting attrition only once one of their number is beyond the initial weeding out of the unskilled, careless and unlucky.

Quite Possible, but lets not forget they they don't allow the "unskilled, careless and unlucky" to become Scouts or Blood Claws. Those ones have been weeded out even before that stage. Blood Claw Attrition cannot possibly be lower than Space Marine Scouts simply because of the different role they play. A Scout skulking off a mile from the enemy will naturally have much less of a chance of being outmatched than a Nutty Blood Claw in Power Armour Up close and Personal.

but scouts are just that, Scouts. They are there to observe, report, and occasionaly fight with the aid of a sergeant.

where as blood claws are a shock-troop that is constantly unleashed into the thick of the battle, where life is cheap and all sides take losses.

Too much to read, especially the original post. It makes too many assumptions. It’s like saying based on population and wealth, China’s army should be at least 5 times larger than North Korea’s. In fact, counting reserves, NK has the larger army.

A few points:
1) Ultramar’s systems may support the Ultramarines and their successor chapters.
2) I don’t know how it became “fact” that a marine chapter has more than 1000 marines. It’s always been 1000.
3) At full strength, the Space Wolves probably have 12 companies with 100-120 marines each. As mentioned before, that’s the guidance from the game Space Marines. Who knows, they don’t adhere to a set organization.
4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Gobbla wrote:
4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Thanks for that clarification, I did not realize that there was a fluff source that mentioned recruiting hive gangers.

Gobbla wrote:Too much to read, especially the original post. It makes too many assumptions. It’s like saying based on population and wealth, China’s army should be at least 5 times larger than North Korea’s. In fact, counting reserves, NK has the larger army.

If you are not gonna bother to read the post, why are you responding to it? That's just rude.

Gobbla wrote:1) Ultramar’s systems may support the Ultramarines and their successor chapters.

Can you prove that? No, because there is nothing to say either way, so we Apply Occam's Razor. Which is Simpler , the Ultramarines Recruiting from Ultramar, or somehow a whole bunch of Successors that have never once been mentioned in the context of Ultramar? Furthermore, if there are so many Chapters the recruit from there, where the hell were they during the Battle for Maccrage? Sitting around drinking tea? It's pretty clear the Ultramarines don't share Ultramar with anyone else.

Gobbla wrote:2) I don’t know how it became “fact” that a marine chapter has more than 1000 marines. It’s always been 1000.

No, it hasn't. It's been Quoted "A Thousand Chapters of a Thousand marines", at no point was it "A Space Marine Chapter is exactly 1000 marines and if you say otherwise you are a heretic!". Take a look at the newest Codex, you will see a nice breakdown of what a Chapter is like. Each of the 9 Marine Companies has 100 marines, plus a Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain. That's 103 per company right there. Then add in the Librarians, Additional Apothecaries and other HQ staff, and that's much more than 1000 marines even when you don't include the Scouts or Scout Sergeants (who are technically full marines). And this is all from the most current codex, so it's not like I am trying to use some obscure old fluff. Again if you had the manners to read my post you would have seen the link to the article that describes in detail why a Chapter is more than 1000 marines.

Gobbla wrote:3) At full strength, the Space Wolves probably have 12 companies with 100-120 marines each. As mentioned before, that’s the guidance from the game Space Marines. Who knows, they don’t adhere to a set organization.

Can you provide us with some rationale/evidence for that? I offered you my argument as to why they are smaller, using logic and reasonable assumptions where hard fact was unavailable. All you have done is throw a random number with no basis as to why.

Gobbla wrote:4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Not sure who this comment was addressed at because I did say that the Ultras will recruit them...

Gwar! wrote:Well if you wanna be that picky there is nothing to say the other Legions did so either, especially since it wasn't only Russ who opposed the Codex (although he was the only one to eventually reject it wholesale). I use 2,000 after the heresy as reasonable assumption, especialy when you factor Gullimans Personality into it (i.e. Pompous Ass-hole) who would have probably caused Great Heresy II if he didnt have his way.

Except that Russ' personality (ie, stubborn bastard who doesn't give a pile of Ork doo for what anyone thinks or would do, and is known for doing what he thinks is the right thing come Hell or high water) was in this instance directly opposed to Guilliman's wishes.

Gwar! wrote:As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

Yes, but I'm a) not certain that number is correct, and b) it includes vehicle crews and other support. My 90 Wolves do not include those. The point wasn't the number 90 in any case. The point was that, even if individual Wolf companies are slighly smaller than CM companies, there's 20% more companies in the SW Chapter, so still more Wolves than marines. I don't think a Great Company is 20% smaller than a Codex Company - they'd be too small to be an effective fighting force, and each GC is a completely independent army itself (excepting Venerable dread and Wolf/Rune/Iron priests), unlike a Marine Company, whose (for instance) reserves, scouts, terminators and Veterans each come from different Companies (6-9th Cpny, 10th Cpny, and 1st Cpny, respectively).

Gwar! wrote:I agree, but this Longevity is offset by the fact they have a much smaller recruitment pool (and therefore recruitment rate) than the Ultramarines who have literally Trillions of potential recruits at any one time.

See, this is the part where we'll just have to disagree. Ultramar is a virtual paradise (by 40K standards, anyway). Fenris is a Death World. One of, if not the worst in the Galaxy, at that. Not only that, its inhabitants are kept at a medieval tech level and forced to war against not just the elements, but each other constantly.
For someone on Fenris to survive beyond childhood to the point where they may actually be recruited means that they're already stronger, tougher, faster, smarter (maybe) and more skilled than 99,9% of the recruitable age slice of the Ultramar population.
In short, Fenris' overall population may be lower, but the % of possible recruits is far, far, far higher than in Ultramar.

Gwar! wrote:Quite Possible, but lets not forget they they don't allow the "unskilled, careless and unlucky" to become Scouts or Blood Claws. Those ones have been weeded out even before that stage. Blood Claw Attrition cannot possibly be lower than Space Marine Scouts simply because of the different role they play. A Scout skulking off a mile from the enemy will naturally have much less of a chance of being outmatched than a Nutty Blood Claw in Power Armour Up close and Personal.

Actually, by unskilled, careless, and unlucky I mean unskilled and careless by space marine standards - these people are the best of the best humans, but still below the standard of even a below average Marine.
Regardless, I don't think the attrition difference between scouts and Blood Claws is as pronounced as you think - Blood Claws are in the thick of things, yes, but they a) wear Power armour versus a scouts' Scout armour, b) already have considerable experience in HtH combat before they're even recruited for the Wolves, and c) will have support/retreat options right behind them, while Scouts, by their nature, are on their own.
Besides, IIRC, the Ultramarines recruitment is at least partially from athletic contests - which usually try to at least mitigate if not eliminate outright the results of luck, as they're supposedly contests of skill/strength.
Although I do agree that BCs will still suffer from more attrition than even scouts, my point is that for a regular marine chapter attrition will be higher among their youngest scouts, then regular scouts, then full company marines, just like for Wolves attrition is highest among Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters. It's just that for Wolves, attrition rates take the new recruits into account, while for regular marines, they don't, meaning that Wolf attrition rate is already (incorrectly) higher than average before their tactics are taken into account.

Gwar!, I think you'll find Gobbla was referring to my post about the Great Company size.
As a Stand in Epic Space Marine was "supposed" to represent 10 men.
Therefore I made a figure of 120 as a guide to the basic size of a Great Company.

For reference:

AdrianG wrote:

AdrianG wrote:

EDIT:
I remember when Epic came out with the "formation cards", a Great Company (basic form) had 10 stands of troops with transport plus 2 stands of wolf guard plus transport.

So just in troops the basic set up was 110 figures, not including all the usually extras you'd get at company level

This bit was probably missed in all the Blood Angel talk

Now times that by 12 and you would have a rough chapter size... As a "guide" of course

This thread is full of win.

No one can "win" the discussion, but lots of fluff gets thrown around and we all come out with more knowledge of our favorite Space Puppies.

Demogerg wrote:This thread is full of win.

No one can "win" the discussion, but lots of fluff gets thrown around and we all come out with more knowledge of our favorite Space Puppies.

That was kind of my point ya know

Demogerg wrote:but scouts are just that, Scouts. They are there to observe, report, and occasionaly fight with the aid of a sergeant.

where as blood claws are a shock-troop that is constantly unleashed into the thick of the battle, where life is cheap and all sides take losses.

I would imagine there'd be a lot of blood claws out there as they're the young guns trying desperately to prove themselves.

hehe, good thread with lots of intresting points! Great disscussion GWAR and Daka, thank you for assisting my daily work productivity!

No kidding. Gwar has single-handedly kept my mind working during these extremely dull times.

Gwar! wrote:As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

From Ultramarines Chapter Organisation (current codex)
997 marines in squads (first company only has 97 veterans)
27 Honour guard
13 Apothecaries
29 librarians
28 techmarines
10 captains
10 chaplains
45 marines in command squads (assumption that every company has five except for scouts which don't have one)
Ortian Cassius (Master of Sanctity)
Marneus Calgar (Chapter Master)
26 Drednoughts (they are marines of a sort)

That makes 1161 marines or 1187 if you count the dreds.

The Ultramarines have 31 Thunderhawks with three marine crew each. I assume that these are dedicated crews as they need to be constantly moving supplies and marines to and from battle without taking marines out of the combat forces.
That makes at least 93 marines.

Total is then 1280

I don't see dedicated drivers for rhinos, raiders and so forth as these are weapons in themselves that remain on the battlefield and so having crews drawn from combat squads doesn't take troops from the battle like crewing thunderhawks would. I think it more likely that these crews are either drawn from the companies the vehicles are assigned to or that they are drawn from the reserve companies such as the 8th and 9th; the 6th and 7th in a codex chapter being responsible for the bikes and landspeeders.

In any case it's certainly more marines over the stated 1000 than I was expecting. If this is standard practice for a codex chapter then who's to say that a non-codex "chapter" like the Space Wolves doesn't have all sorts of clever ways to have far in excess of even that? As their geneseed isn't considered stable then chances are that they're the only ones who really want to use it which gives them the chance to produce extra brethren even despite the high attrition rates through implanting and training.

I don't understand how Longevity is related to anything, again BA are one of the longest lived of the chapters, but isn't every single marine essentially immortal? I didn't think any of them died of old age.

Delephont wrote:Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself.

Quite a useless point of view to hold Delephont. In your first post in this thread you essentially insulted anyone who likes writing fiction, then go onto argue with said fiction writer, and then when he disagrees with you, you clamber back to "it's not real" (tautological much?)

In a forum that's all about fluff. Oh the irony...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Delephont wrote:Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself.

Quite a useless point of view to hold Delephont. In your first post in this thread you essentially insulted anyone who likes writing fiction, then go onto argue with said fiction writer, and then when he disagrees with you, you clamber back to "it's not real" (tautological much?)

In a forum that's all about fluff. Oh the irony...

I said I wasn't going to post in this topic again, however, as I've been called out personally, it would be rude not to!

In my opinion, this isn't someone writing a piece of fluff to support a home brewed army, or a piece of creative writing to shed some light on an otherwise darkened place within the WH40K realm, this thread is about someone trying to justify or create a factual base for the current fluff using real world logic and numbers dreamed up from thin air. The OP, then goes on to invite comments etc....which is what I did.

What pushed my buttons, if the phrase fits, is that the OP then went on to disregard counter statements (with equal real world logic or dreamed up numbers) by basically saying "my fantasy is better than yours".......

On the point of useless posts, however, how does yours add anything to the topic at hand?.....just curious!

I'm not sure why it's important if the Ultramarines can recruit more than the wolves or not - they won't because the codex doesn't allow them to.
Consider this:

Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

There is no reason to believe Space Wolves are less selective.

Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)

Therefore each Great company has 200 men.

There are 12 GC's, so there are 2,400 Space Wolves.
Factoring in cadbren's 25% (aprox) ancillary personnel gives you 3,000.

tsuro wrote:
Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

not to seem rude, but that invalidates your argument, as Space Wolves are absolutely not a codex chapter.

thanks for the input though

tsuro wrote:I'm not sure why it's important if the Ultramarines can recruit more than the wolves or not - they won't because the codex doesn't allow them to.
Consider this:

Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

There is no reason to believe Space Wolves are less selective.

Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)

Therefore each Great company has 200 men.

There are 12 GC's, so there are 2,400 Space Wolves.
Factoring in cadbren's 25% (aprox) ancillary personnel gives you 3,000.

This post is a wonderful example of why people who don't know anything about the Space Wolves should stay away.

Firstly: "Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter." So what? Space Wolves are not a codex chapter.

Secondly "Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)" This is wrong wrong WRONG. The 20 Model limit is just an arbitarty rules limit. A Wolf Lords Wolf Guard is NOT always 20 models. It can be as small or as large as he wants, and is actually based on ability, unlike codex marines where its a case of "oh dear Brother Alf of the 1st company died, find some shmuck from 2nd to replace him"

So, does anyone else actually have thought out arguments to bring to this fun little debate?

Why does it invalidate it? They may not be codex, but that doesn't mean they have to deviate in every regard. And even if they do, so what? We don't know one way or the other and it's a reasonable assumption to make, certainly more likely than a fith of the great company being veterans.

I'm inclined to believe that less than 10% get chosen as Wolfguard, but I have no sources to draw from and it raises the numbers even higher.

It's not reasonable to make at all.
As I said, 1st company membership is less about individual ability than the wolf guard.

To just say that a blanket 10% of each Great Company has impressed their Wolf Lord enough for a spot at his side is ludicrous to the extreme.

Ah, I disagree with your perception of the chapter so I must have no knowledge about them.

The twenty limit rule has been present in every Space Wolf codex.

You call it "arbitrary" but that's another assumption you've made in your arguments.
Rules are made for reasons.
Its not even a relevant concern. If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops. Granted, Great Company sizes fluctuate, but how drammatically?

To just say that a blanket 10% of each Great Company has impressed their Wolf Lord enough for a spot at his side is ludicrous to the extreme.

I suggest it is not unreasonable to take this number as an average and treat it as such.

The Rule is arbitrary because, assuming your stance is correct and that Space Wolves have a fetish for the number 20 and never allow more than 20 wolf guard, what happens if your space wolf army is made up of 2 different Great Companies? Why can't I take 40 then? The reason is that because the 20 Wolf Guard Limit is an arbitrary limit, the same way as the 0-1 Wolf Lord limit is Arbitrary. I also love how you proudly state "The twenty limit rule has been present in every Space Wolf codex" because as we all know the Space Wolves have has so many codex's over the years haven't they. Oh yes, it's not like they had a Single Codex in 2nd edition and had a Minidex that was nothing but a Quick rehash of the old codex's rules, limits and everything included... oh wait! It was.

Luckily GW have moved away from such arbitrary 0-1 limits in their new codex's (hence you can now take 2 Company Command Squads/ 2 Chapter Masters just fine)

As for your statement that "If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops" who is to say the number of wolf guard bear any meaning to the number of regular marines in the chapter? One wolf Lord might have 4 trusted Brothers in his wolf Guard, while another one might have had 2 Packs of Grey Hunters just so utterly badass that he felt he could give them the privilege of being wolf guard, meaning he would have 30 or more "Wolf Guard".

But where did you get this idea of an "Average" from? A The Codex Astrates, which holds as much weight on what the Space Wolves do as an Inquisitors choice of breakfast.

what happens if your space wolf army is made up of 2 different Great Companies? Why can't I take 40 then?

Your army is not made up of two Great Companies, whatever you may want to tell yourself, hence the 0-1 limit on Wolf Lords. The Codex is a blueprint for building a single company.

Oh yes, it's not like they had a Single Codex in 2nd edition and had a Minidex that was nothing but a Quick rehash of the old codex's rules, limits and everything included... oh wait! It was.

This is quite plainly false. I thought I was the one who wasn't supposed to know anything about Space Wolves?
The mini dex changed -
The stats of evey unit in the army (goodbye WS5)
The rules of every unit in the army (hello true grit, counterattack, no matter the odds, behind enemy lines etc..)
The weapons available to units (e.g only two power fists in grey hunters)
The wargear available and what it did
And more importantly some of the limits. e.g Blood Claws used to be ten in a squad, now they're 8-15. Grey Hunters used to be ten, now 6-10 and became mandatory.

They changed some limits and left others alone. That denotes choice, which suggests the person chosing had reasons.
It even states in the minidex that the reason for the hard limit is that there are only a limited number of Wolf Guard in each Great Company.

Luckily GW have moved away from such arbitrary 0-1 limits in their new codex's (hence you can now take 2 Company Command Squads/ 2 Chapter Masters just fine)

Perhaps, or perhaps they're moving away from a previous design philosophy? It doesn't change the intention behind the previous dex and what we can conclude from it.

As for your statement that "If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops" who is to say the number of wolf guard bear any meaning to the number of regular marines in the chapter? One wolf Lord might have 4 trusted Brothers in his wolf Guard, while another one might have had 2 Packs of Grey Hunters just so utterly badass that he felt he could give them the privilege of being wolf guard, meaning he would have 30 or more "Wolf Guard".

But where did you get this idea of an "Average" from? A The Codex Astrates, which holds as much weight on what the Space Wolves do as an Inquisitors choice of breakfast.

Again, I suggest Wolf guard size being relative to unit size is a fair assumption. You wouldn't have your thirty wolfguard in a Great Company if there were six grey hunters and a squad of blood claws left. Similar to how you need a certain sized population to support a certain number of marines, there needs to be a certain number of marines to support a level of veterans.

The "average" is nothing do with the Codex Astartes. I'm suggesting that 20 is not a "fetish" figure but the "average" number of Wolfguard in a Great company when considering the chapter as a whole, so as to account for individual wolf Lord idiosyncracities.

Once again, just because they don't follow the astartes doesn't mean they don't sometimes fuction the same. We have never been told that Wolves have more relative veterans than other chapters. We have never been told they have less. We have been told about their other deviations. We know that they have more in common with codex marines than out. Therefore it is a valid conclusion that they do not alter in this regard.

Further, (1) I'm not suggesting that the number of marines is an upper limit but a lower one and (2) that the smaller company size you advocated at the begining of the thread wouldn't support the number of wolfguard they could have.

We're told there is a limited number, and we're told what that number is. My conclusions are based on these. Yours were based on the idea that the ultramarines had a much larger pool of applicants to choose from and would take as many as they could (despite their beloved primach deliberately limiting their numbers), hence the Space Wolves had to be smaller.

tsuro wrote:
Once again, just because they don't follow the astartes doesn't mean they don't sometimes fuction the same.

I think it does, as the Codex Astartes defines how a chapter is organized, how they function, and how they fight.
Space Wolves are primarily different in 2 respects from other chapters, 1. they completely ignore the Codex Astartes, and 2. they have a genetic mutation that sets them apart (as many other chapters have their own mutations)

They do not have their own codex because of their mutations, else we would have many many more codices out. they have their own codex because they fight differently, they function differently, and they are organized differently.

...and yet they use the same weapons, vehicles and armour as codex chapters. In that regard they function the same.

They have an assault unit, a long range unit and a mid range unit. In that regard they function the same.

They have an elite core who alone have access to terminator armour. In that regard they function the same.


It is fallacious to say that because the chapter is sometimes different they are always different. That point is unarguable.
The Space Wolves are more similar to marines than they are different.

I just want to ask you, was my OP so amazing that you had to sign up to dakkadakka for? After all all your posts have been in this thread.

To be honest, I think you are an Alt account made to harass this thread, but anyway.

Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

Gwar! wrote:Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

It's not the same tactics and organization, but it's not a foreign as say - an Ork warband, and is more similar to the Ultramarines than a Tau Cadre.

I think most of the arguement in this thread is just to argue. GW has never set the max, min, or average size of a Great Company let alone the whole Chapter, and I'm sure this is very deliberate. We're just speculating, me included.

Remember, the bulk of the Company is made up of Grey Hunters, and Ragnar is (iirc) the only Wolf to go from Blood Claw to the Wolf Guard. Also, most Wolves fall in battle as a Blood Claw. So, Blood Claws are the most variable number. I think assuming that Wolf Guard are tyically about 10% the total size of the Great Company is reasonable. If Wolf Guard make up much more than 10% of the Company, it's not an 'elite' unit. If it's too small a percentage, it's so exclusive that no one gets in. I would guess the size of a Company varies from about 100-250, typically around 150-200. Figure about 60-80 Grey Hunters in packs, about 20 more Grey Hunters as vehicle crews, 10-15 Long Fangs, and 20 Wolf Guard. That's about 120 Wolves. Throw in 0-100 Blood Claws, with probably about 50 typically. So, 170. By third edition codex, Scouts, all Dreads, the Iron Priests, Wolf Priests, and Rune Priests come from the Great Wolf's Company (which I disagree with, if each Company is truly self-sufficient like described, these assests would be assigned to the Companies, and the Wolf Lords would not be requistioning them from the Great Wolf).

I just want to ask you, was my OP so amazing that you had to sign up to dakkadakka for? After all all your posts have been in this thread.

To be honest, I think you are an Alt account made to harass this thread, but anyway.

I was reading the reactions to the space wolf rumours and there were links to this thread so I checked it out. I disagreed with what I read so I took the time to contribute to the discussion.

As for harrassment, your reaction to my very first post was that I didn't know anything about space wolves and should stay away.

Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

Nowhere have I stated I want everything to be the same. I'm commenting on how things are, not how I wish them to be.

Tsuro, i was the one who linked to this thread, and lets all please refrain from personal attacks, i like to keep discussions civil.

Anyways,
"and yet they use the same weapons, vehicles and armour as codex chapters. In that regard they function the same."
yes, but Imperial Guard use the same weapons as Space Marines, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, and DH and Space Wolves use at least 1 imperial guard tank (in the fluff the Space Wolves actually have more) and Space Wolves and Space Marines wear the same armor as the Sisters of Battle.

equipment is generally universal across the Imperium.


"They have an assault unit, a long range unit and a mid range unit. In that regard they function the same."

well, we have 2 assaulty units, one of which is a reaction based unit that can be equiped for close range fire, but the most mid range it gets is a plas gun and a few bolter shots. To call Grey Hunters mid range i think is a bit skewed to prove point, they are still made for CC. Also, Orks have assaulty units, mid ranged units, and long ranged units, in this respect they are like Space Marines too, no?

"They have an elite core who alone have access to terminator armour. In that regard they function the same."
This is true. But to argue that because the elite troops have better armor it is a functional equivalent is pretty redundant when you start to consider every single race in the game.


lets all just stop hating each other and direct that negative attitude towards something useful, like bashing ShumaGorath.