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Demogerg wrote:EDIT* and to be fair, I have been playing Space Wolves for so long I have forgotten more about Space Wolves than most people will ever know.

Yeah, I am sure. All that Correctness really hurts my brain.

Ok, well I apologise for being so blunt.

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?

I never read a thing about the Lion's traitorous progeny. On principle.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?

I never read a thing about the Lion's traitorous progeny. On principle.

Know thy enemy is my motto.

Well, considering they don't HAVE a homeworld anymore

Did the DA Legion recruit from worlds besides Caliban, or just the remnant Chapter which is now fleet based? I thought the Legion was confined to Caliban. BTs are also fleet based, and recruit from wherever they happen to be when they run low on neophytes.

dietrich wrote:Did the DA Legion recruit from worlds besides Caliban, or just the remnant Chapter which is now fleet based? I thought the Legion was confined to Caliban. BTs are also fleet based, and recruit from wherever they happen to be when they run low on neophytes.

I think they Used to be only Caliban, but now recruit from multiple worlds as they fly about on The Rock.

So, I was right. The Ultramarines were the only Legion recruiting from multiple worlds. There's several fleet based Chapters that do so now, but they're not Legions.

dietrich wrote:So, I was right. The Ultramarines were the only Legion recruiting from multiple worlds. There's several fleet based Chapters that do so now, but they're not Legions.

Exactly, Ultramarines are the only ones to Recruit from Multiple worlds. They had about 26,000 Marines when the 2nd founding happened, all from the Ultramar Sector. That means the Ultramarines Chapter will ALWAYS be at Full Strength (bar being eaten by Nids) because they have such a huge pool. Which was my point all along.

Gwar! wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was the one saying Wulfen were part of the Space Wolves.

Oh wait I wasn't.

Sure
Your own post:

Gwar! wrote:
The "Mark of the Wulfen" is something certain Space Wolves suffer from. Under Stress they regress to a Bestial form, and change back after the Stress has passed. They are not like 13th company wulfen, who have fully and irreversibly regressed. This is normally Marked out by the Wolf Preists with some form of Ritual tattoo and kept under an extra careful eye, just in case.

Shows it.

Gwar! wrote:
Look, if you are not going to post Constructively, while making sure you are not posting rubbish, do not post at all, Please.

Wasn't constructive to provide a source for what i have said?

But its not a problem to leave it alone, since i'm sure you won't provide us with any source to base your claims on.

You do realise the Mark of the Wulfen is NOT the same as Full Blown Wulfen?

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

I already covered that. They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

I would agree that the elder Marines would be the more Elite of the Space Marines but the Blood Claws are still included in the number of personnel available to the Great Companies, so like I said higher recruitment rate would equal larger numbers of Blood Claws, who count towards Company strength regardless of attrition. So they would have large numbers of cannon fodder, big angry cannon fodder. Great Line troops and the best Veterans.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

Except it is heavily Implied that the Geneseed only seems to work with Humans from Fenris.

How can that be? A specific Gene needed for the geneseed only found in humans from Fenris?

I didn't read the rest of the pages but I found some stuff I would just throw out there.

And then we have Fenris. Fenris is akin to Ultramar in the fact that they are Planets.

I don't care who you are, thats funny, right there.

Sadly there is little to go on regarding the actual practices of how the Ultramarines select their recruits. Do they have recruitment drives? Do they go around rounding up random teenagers? I have not been able to find anything concrete. However, one can assume that because of the civilised nature of the Ultramar worlds, just randomly kidnapping kids would be a bit off, especially since “Throughout Ultramar proud citizens point to public statues of famous Ultramarines who were born to local families. Amongst the older aristocratic dynasties it is a matter of considerable esteem to provide recruits for the Space Marines.”
From that sentence I can sort of see that each person can apply to be tested to see if they are compatible for Astartes training and the most compatible are taken of their own free will.
Apologies for the lack of information on this point as I could not find anything more detailed.

Ever heard of the Agiselus(sp?), it is the system of military academies across Ultramar or on Macragge, one or the other. The system selects those who are deemed the best and they have to reach the Fortress of Hera on their own. It was in one of the Ultramarine Comics if I remember correctly. Check out the BnC Ultramarine sub-forum for some in depth UM knowledge. For reference, I believe one of the test for USSF is a 14 mile ruck through hard country in west Virginia with 50 lbs on your back and a Jerry can as your only water, so add some grimdark and thats probably what it is like for the UM recruits.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle.

Brass ones are a requirement of all Marines .

Which brings me to one of the two major advantages I can see that the Space Wolf Geneseed has. The first is Longevity. Wile its true we haven't heard many tales of Ultramarines being so old, that might be because they lose their “edge” a lot faster so are killed in battle before it becomes noticeable. I mean, Logan is one of the oldest Marines there are, second to perhaps Dante (not including freak cases like Chaos Marines, Marines Stuck in the Warp or held in stasis). At 700 years old, he's hardly in the Prime of his life, but shows no signs of being anything but at peak efficiency. Contrast this to the Ultramarines, where Cassius, at a “mere” 400 years old is one of the oldest, most venerable Marines.

Imperial Fists are fairly long lived as well. Ludoldus lived over 1000 years.

Ultramarines: Low level of attrition, in part due to more formal training and in part due to the nature of a Scouts role, that of infiltration and reconnaissance.

I think the attrition is close in the UM's but they can replace them faster, which was the point of this articles was it not? I think the Templars and Space Wolves may have the highest levels, with the Templars likely having the highest. But that is neither here nor there.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:I think the attrition is close in the UM's but they can replace them faster, which was the point of this articles was it not? I think the Templars and Space Wolves may have the highest levels, with the Templars likely having the highest. But that is neither here nor there.

The templars most Certainly have a Higher Attrition rate, but they have the advantage of Recruiting wherever they may be whenever they need. Space Wolves don't.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.
Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility" No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

Gwar, while that comment is perfectly logical, you ignore the point that 40k fluff consistently ignores or minimizes that logic. All GW fluff shows that primitive peoples are excellent recruits, especially from deathworlds. The Imperium goes so far as to colonize and support deathworlds at great cost just to set up the enhanced recruitment for space marines. As I said before you are applying logic to a area where GW has constantly been illogical. In real life well trained marines rack up 40:1 kill ratios on gangers and tribal warriors. In 40k well trained and educated people are considered inferior to random drug addicted gang members with guns thrust in their hands.

Ultramarines may have a pool 1000 times larger to recruit from, but SW could easily have people 1000 times more likely to survive the process. Ultras are limited in maximum size. SW are not. SW were a smaller legion back when legions were huge, but they never divided more then once, while Ultras divided multiple times.

That Fenris could support a small legion with recruitment, and that legion numbered more then 2x current chapter codex size, indicates SW have the capability to expand to at minimum 2x chapter size. As they have no upper limit to cap them, and they take everyone who makes the cut, it is reasonable to assume they are back up to their legion size.

You forget good sir the Way Marines were made was vastly different pre Heresy, which was the reason for the large numbers.

How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Gwar! wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

Except it is heavily Implied that the Geneseed only seems to work with Humans from Fenris.

I know this will just cause more trouble but it is implied (and I am not agreeing with BrotherStynier here) that the Wolves recruit from elsewhere than Fenris.
Let me explain. The Lost Companies that are off on the Long Hunt (ie no longer part of the official chapter as the administratum see it) are said, in an old white dwarf article written by a certain Scribe Chambers back a ways, to recruit from other worlds to keep their strength up as a fighting force. Now in the article it does say that these men are trained and equipped but not made into marines, however, it also implies that a Lost Company that has the capability to create marines will do so and considering they do not return for long periods of time it seems logical to assume that they will augment recruits from other worlds. (Catachan Wolves can you taste the awesome?)

In conclusion I will say that (and you may rip to your hearts content, this is simply my understanding) Wolves of the core Chapter are not lacking of recruits as there are plenty of youths good enough to make the grade (due to their lifestyle). When separated from Fenris for a century or two a Lost Company will demonstrate the Wolves' usual autonomy and replenish their strength from those they deem worthy/suitable from available planets if they are too far from Fenris.

ps:I'll post the WD for your enjoyment when I get back to SA later this month.

Oh, and with respects to the Mark of the Wulfen debate I say Gwar! has it on the nose. Some members of the Chapter let the Wolf within take over in battle but only the 13th co. have permanently changed wulfen. A Mark is a rare thing and a constant Wulfen would be unsuitable for the strictures of the Fang. A Blood Claw gets into a lot of fights and Wulfen arent know for their patience.

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

cadbren wrote:Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Then in the Eyes of the High Lords they are Traitors and Heretics of the Worst Kind.

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Goto's stuff isn't considered canon because it disregards everything else in order to have more MULTILASERS.

In the new tales of Heresy novel there is a story about Lord Bulveye from the time of the great crusade. Loyal readers will remember him from the last Ragnar book as the 13th company wolf lord that they encounter. A small aside during the story mentions the origins of the 13th company, who called themselves the wolf brothers. I will speak of it since it is not really important to the plot of the story. Apparently the men of Russ's retinue demanded to be made into marines even though the Allfather told them they were too old and would probably not survive the process. Russ relented and so 2 score survived of the hundreds of men impressing the Allfather with their big brass ones, and forming the core of the 13th company.
More importantly Bulveye encounters a new world and thinks to himself that the brave young men of this world could have made fine recruits for the chapter. So apparently, at least pre heresy, the Wolves did recruit from other worlds.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Goto's stuff isn't considered canon because it disregards everything else in order to have more MULTILASERS.

That sounds about right.

You guys realize you are arguing over the fluff of a group of fantasy barbarians in armor that can take a bullet well, right? I mean, JEEZ, what is up with Dakka Dakka? I like my little men as much as the enxt guy, and I have in fact told people not to insult the fact that they are little men and it isn't a child's game, BUT JEEZ this is stuff written by humans. It has a crapload of mistakes and it of course will have tons of holes in it.

My point is, this is nice and all, but it's fluff over a fantasy chapter of barbarians...

PS: No disrespect, really.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:You guys realize you are arguing over the fluff of a group of fantasy barbarians in armor that can take a bullet well, right? I mean, JEEZ, what is up with Dakka Dakka? I like my little men as much as the enxt guy, and I have in fact told people not to insult the fact that they are little men and it isn't a child's game, BUT JEEZ this is stuff written by humans. It has a crapload of mistakes and it of course will have tons of holes in it.

My point is, this is nice and all, but it's fluff over a fantasy chapter of barbarians...

PS: No disrespect, really.

Arrr...yeah. So what's your point mate, that's what the background section is for.

Gwar! wrote:They had about 26,000 Marines when the 2nd founding happened, all from the Ultramar Sector. That means the Ultramarines Chapter will ALWAYS be at Full Strength (bar being eaten by Nids) because they have such a huge pool. Which was my point all along.

Categorically untrue. It's established fluff that after the Battle for Macragge and the wiping of the First Company it took the Ultramarines a full century to recover to full strength. If they really had such a huge pool, it'd be an easy matter to promote veterans from other Companies to the First to fill those losses and then take that many scouts experienced enough and ready to be inducted to full Marine to refill the other Companies. Blam Full Chapter once again.
Time spent: Maybe a decade if logistics turn out to be a nightmare and a lot of equipment needs to be replaced as well.

You did notice the "Bar Being eaten by Nids" in the quote? What I mean is that normal combat losses are replaced pretty much straight away, because of the huge recruitment pool.

In that case, it's a pretty weak argument, as much the same can be said for every Chapter bar those struck by catastrophe or drawn into a war of attrition (Lamenters, Crimson Fists).
All Chapters are at combat strength pretty much continually, and able to replenish their losses at the same (or faster) rate than they are incurred. The Space Wolves certainly are, or they wouldn't have lasted ten millennia.

@Demogerg: LOL @ your sig. That's the most consise version of the Heresy I've yet seen.

Written by Manchu here on Dakka, Im actually just finishing up a .GIF image version of it.