Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Naw Gwar!, I think it more has to do with your lack of citations that support your arguments, and your relentless repeating of opinions you have.

Not that your batting average is poor for giving correct answers, but you give them in a way that makes you hard to talk to and debate. You seem to often take a "my opinion is law" standpoint.

Anyways thats just the impression I get, so maybe others get that too.

hmmm, Interesting thought happened when I read through the IG Codex. Could you use "Get Back in the Fight!, Incoming!, or Move!, Move!, Move! in the opponents turn? None of these require you to break any rules.

Get Back in the Fight!, ignores any restriction on regrouping.

Incoming!, Would be rather pointless during your turn.

Move!, Move!, Move!, this is the only one I don't know about as it requires you to run.

arinnoor wrote:Incoming!, Would be rather pointless during your turn.

No, its rather simple, you give up two turns of shooting for a +2 Cover Save (as you become pinned and cannot do anything until the end of the FOLLOWING turn). So not pointless, just not as good as people thought it would be.

Dracos wrote:Naw Gwar!, I think it more has to do with your lack of citations that support your arguments, and your relentless repeating of opinions you have.

Not that your batting average is poor for giving correct answers, but you give them in a way that makes you hard to talk to and debate. You seem to often take a "my opinion is law" standpoint.

Anyways thats just the impression I get, so maybe others get that too.

I don't ever give my opinion. I give what the rules actually state.

But, that doesn't adress my question. As far as I can tell nothing prevents me from using it in my opponents turn.

arinnoor wrote:But, that doesn't adress my question. As far as I can tell nothing prevents me from using it in my opponents turn.

The fact that you cannot Shoot or do ANYTHING in your opponents turn unless expressly allowed is one. If you can't shoot (as we have proved) why would you assume you can run?

I repeat.

Passing #3 (must not have moved or shot) on the opponent's turn assumes that your 'moveing/shooting' ability resets at the end of your turn. On the other hand, we have not reason to take that as being any more valid than any other time, such as the begining of your next shooting phase.

Indeed, if we want to be corpreate lawyer literal about the rules, the rules for orders don't specify 'this turn' when saying the Officer must not have run or shot. Which means once a command squad runs or shoots the first time, they may not give orders for the remainder of the game, no matter what or whos turn it is.

(the same logic could be used to allow Tau battlesuits or eldar jetbikes to move 6" in the opponents Assult phase.)

Gwar! wrote:

arinnoor wrote:But, that doesn't adress my question. As far as I can tell nothing prevents me from using it in my opponents turn.

The fact that you cannot Shoot or do ANYTHING in your opponents turn unless expressly allowed is one. If you can't shoot (as we have proved) why would you assume you can run?

Okay so this is what I was referring to. I have not been able to find in this thread the rule you are citing to bring validity to these claims. Is what you are saying verbatim from the text? It does not sound like it, which is why it comes off as your opinion rather than the text which would support your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the side you are arguing for. But the way you go about debating it I don't think is very helpful to people who don't already agree with you.

Run I was unsure about, but what prevents you from regrouping (exspecialy when it says it ignores restrictions). I hope I don't have to prove that you can go to ground in your opponent's turn.

arinnoor wrote:Run I was unsure about, but what prevents you from regrouping (exspecialy when it says it ignores restrictions). I hope I don't have to prove that you can go to ground in your opponent's turn.

You don't have to prove it, as the rulebook says SPECIFICALLY that you can.

It stems from the fact that giving an order is a Shooting Phase option for IG commanders. (not unlike using some psychic powers). It is an action they may perform in addition to shooting or runing, so long as it takes place prior to anyone shooting or running. As such, Officers are unable to issue orders during the opponent's turn, the say way one can not shoot or run during the opponent's turn.

At the very least, Occum's Razor sugests this reading, as calling this into question creates a myriad of issues within the main rule books and across several codieces.

As ridiculous as the argument is still going on in this thread , i must place an equally ridiculous blame at GW.

The least they should do is provide a place where they can address players issues fast.

Of course , i know why they dont. It'll just make it even more obvious (how much GW sucks ) when it gets flooded with questions

Huh? I don't get it. Orders may be used each player turn. So, as long as the action the order is making them immediately do is legal then it is fine.

arinnoor wrote:Huh? I don't get it. Orders may be used each player turn. So, as long as the action the order is making them immediately do is legal then it is fine.

Quote it up...quote it up...

Arinnoor, just apply the standard criteria for using the rules to all of your questions and you will have your answers.

That criteria being:

-You cannot do anything in 40K without permission to try.
-Where a step of an action that you have permission to try comes into conflict with a general rule, the action fails.
-An explicit exception from the codex will override a conflict with the general rules.

Now fit Orders in to that:

-Do you have permission to try to issue an order during either player turn? Yes, it looks like you do.
-Does this conflict with a general rule? Yes, it does, as in general you cannot do anything during your opponents turn.
-Do you have an explicit exception from your codex to override the conflict? No, you do not, so the action of issuing an order fails.

That method is how the entire game works. It is why that 'fex mentioned earlier can't shoot in the opponents turn, and why a Space Marine Librarian can't use any of his powers in the opponents turn. It is all identical language of when you have permission to try to use those actions, and all with the same result. The only actions that work in an opponents turn say so explicitly. One example from the main rulebook is Going to Ground. An example from a codex would be Word of the Emperor psychic power in the Witchhunters codex.

arinnoor wrote:Huh? I don't get it. Orders may be used each player turn. So, as long as the action the order is making them immediately do is legal then it is fine.

No, they cannot give orders every turn, because it must be done before the Ordering units Shoots or Runs. Because the Ordering unit CANNOT shoot or run in the opponents turn, there is not a point where it is "Before they shoot or run".

Also what Kaaihn said

Gwar! wrote:

arinnoor wrote:Huh? I don't get it. Orders may be used each player turn. So, as long as the action the order is making them immediately do is legal then it is fine.

No, they cannot give orders every turn, because it must be done before the Ordering units Shoots or Runs. Because the Ordering unit CANNOT shoot or run in the opponents turn, there is not a point where it is "Before they shoot or run".

Also what Kaaihn said

I tried hammering it into their head like people suggested a month ago.

Its not working @_@ ... im staying out of it i give up.

LunaHound wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

arinnoor wrote:Huh? I don't get it. Orders may be used each player turn. So, as long as the action the order is making them immediately do is legal then it is fine.

No, they cannot give orders every turn, because it must be done before the Ordering units Shoots or Runs. Because the Ordering unit CANNOT shoot or run in the opponents turn, there is not a point where it is "Before they shoot or run".

Also what Kaaihn said

I tried hammering it into their head like people suggested a month ago.

Its not working @_@ ... im staying out of it i give up.

As I said, its because you're a girl. Nobody knows what they are here

Hold on guys, I just thought of something.

Have you noticed that you have to issue orders before you shoot or run? You can't shoot or run in your opponent's shooting phase, so that might mean you can't issue orders either!

Gwar! wrote:Because if they can then Dakkafexes can shoot in the enemy shooting phase too etc etc.

Actually, that would make every Tyranid able to fire during the opponent's shooting phase (also), not just the dakkafexes.
The only thing needed is two (or more!) ranged bio-weapons.


Good stuff.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Hold on guys, I just thought of something.

Have you noticed that you have to issue orders before you shoot or run? You can't shoot or run in your opponent's shooting phase, so that might mean you can't issue orders either!

Well Bugger me sideways with a Spoon made from Depleted Uranium! I hadn't thought of that!

I'm just on top of things, I guess!

Also, I emailed the question answering guy. (Not that anyone will change their position based on his answer.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm just on top of things, I guess!

Also, I emailed the question answering guy. (Not that anyone will change their position based on his answer.)

Whatever the responce, I implore you to not post the answer please. It Will say "no don't be so EFFing stupid" and the Guys who think you can will use the "OMG HE IS NOT A DEV AND NOT OFFICIAL WAAAAAAAA!" argument to try and "prove" their view

@Kaaihn- Can you quote me a page that says I cannot make ANY actions in my opponents turn? Things like the Orders Fire on my Target!, Bring it Down!, and Librarians' psychic powers cannot be done, as you cannot fire in the opponent's turn unless specificly stated so.

Incoming!, is different though. It says you go to ground which you can do in your opponent's turn. No part of the order goes against any rules.

Move!, Move!, Move! I didn't think would work as it would require you to run which you cannont normal do in the opponent's turn.

Get Back in the Fight!, ignores restrictions on regrouping. Thus it can as well be used in the opponent's turn.

arinnoor wrote:@Kaaihn- Can you quote me a page that says I cannot make ANY actions in my opponents turn? Things like the Orders Fire on my Target!, Bring it Down!, and Librarians' psychic powers cannot be done, as you cannot fire in the opponent's turn unless specificly stated so.

Incoming!, is different though. It says you go to ground which you can do in your opponent's turn. No part of the order goes against any rules.

Move!, Move!, Move! I didn't think would work as it would require you to run which you cannont normal do in the opponent's turn.

Get Back in the Fight!, ignores restrictions on regrouping. Thus it can as well be used in the opponent's turn.

-Bangs head against brick wall to relieve the pain-

You are misunderstanding the point!
You cannot give orders every turn, because it must be done before the Ordering units Shoots or Runs. Because the Ordering unit CANNOT shoot or run in the opponents turn, there is not a point where it is "Before they shoot or run".

Do you understand now? not being able to issue orders has NOTHING to do with the effect. they just CANNOT issue the order.

Ok, as far as breaking the game goes, it shouldnt be used.

My poor grey knights really cant do anything in the other players phase with any of these rules (libby, dakkafex, ect...).

I invoke rule #1- I want the game to be fun for everyone.

This rule was used with the dark angels FAQ, guilting everyone into letting the angels use the new updated SM codex rules for assault cannons and the like.

Because it is the most important rule it trumps every other rule. So regardless of the Heavy Metal tourney, Play the way that everyone can be the most happy. this does not mean that the IG player cannot still have fun but when he ruins it for the opposing player the most important rule is not being fulfilled. If you want a rule to claim, use that one, because in the end blatant use of RAW over RAI is never fun for anyone.

If I ever face an opponent who actually wants to try to say that IG can give orders in my turn, then I will break out my Saim-Hann army and insist that I can move my Bikes 6" in each of his assault phases, as well. I don't think that he will like it....

arinnoor wrote:@Kaaihn- Can you quote me a page that says I cannot make ANY actions in my opponents turn? Things like the Orders Fire on my Target!, Bring it Down!, and Librarians' psychic powers cannot be done, as you cannot fire in the opponent's turn unless specificly stated so.

Incoming!, is different though. It says you go to ground which you can do in your opponent's turn. No part of the order goes against any rules.

Move!, Move!, Move! I didn't think would work as it would require you to run which you cannont normal do in the opponent's turn.

Get Back in the Fight!, ignores restrictions on regrouping. Thus it can as well be used in the opponent's turn.

Can I quote you a specific passage? No. It is simply the function of how 40K works. I can't quote you a passage that says the 40K ruleset is a permissive type ruleset, but it is. That's just the way the overall rules work. Logical deduction is what shows you that these are the premises the whole game framework is based on.

You can't issue the order because it is an action in the other players turn without an explicit exception overriding the conflict of not being able to perform actions in the other players turn.

In the case of Incoming!, that order (like all orders) cannot be successfully issued at that time, and fails there. You may Go to Ground since Go to Ground has a an exception allowing that specific rule to work over the general prohibition of not performing actions in yoru opponents turn. But you can only get the +2 to your cover save over the regular +1 by using this order and Going to Ground during your own turn. Note that the cover save and effect of Incoming! is one of the few things that has an effect that continues after your turn ends, and through your opponents turn. The use of Incoming! is to give a unit that you assume is going to get shot up when your opponent goes a better save.

No order can be successfully issued because performing that action is in conflict with the general rules, and you don't have an exception to override the general rule. Because you have no exception, the action then fails. No order issued.

I think you are still having trouble with the concept that if an action has a conflict with general rules, it fails. Just because the action is something in your codex doesn't mean it overrides the general rule it is in conflict with. Only explicit exceptions override rules conflicts. Usually these exceptions come from your codex, and this is one of places the idea of Codex > Rulebook comes from, but that is a misleading simplification.

GW was just ambiguous.
The rule states that Orders must be issued before the Officer's Squad shoots or runs, and issuing orders does not prevent those actions afterwards. It doesn't make sense that the "before" means the opponent's turn ahead of the Guard Player's turn. Were that true, the game would be FUBAR.
You're only allowed to issue orders on your own turn...

Bob the Hobo wins for having an avatar of a flaming Alf.

arinnoor wrote:@Kaaihn- Can you quote me a page that says I cannot make ANY actions in my opponents turn? Things like the Orders Fire on my Target!, Bring it Down!, and Librarians' psychic powers cannot be done, as you cannot fire in the opponent's turn unless specificly stated so.

Incoming!, is different though. It says you go to ground which you can do in your opponent's turn. No part of the order goes against any rules.

Move!, Move!, Move! I didn't think would work as it would require you to run which you cannont normal do in the opponent's turn.

Get Back in the Fight!, ignores restrictions on regrouping. Thus it can as well be used in the opponent's turn.

There is nowhere in the BGB that says you can take a Move or Shooting action (Falling Back, Consolidating, and firing Defensive Weapons don't count as these), and since an Order requires you to do at least have the ABILITY to do those, (aka, you cannot Move or Shoot in your opponents turn), so therefore you cannot issue an order.

Period. I am not sure why you would even try to argue for this, as it takes the spirit of a fair game, rapes it, and feeds it to the Grots....