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I was playing against an IG player and at the start of my shooting phase the IG player announce that he was going to issue the order FRFSRF. I said "how are you doing this?" Then he proceeded to turn to the small rule book on page 9. Right top paragraph "Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word "turn", both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means ' players turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'.

Then if you go the IG Codex, and read when issuing the orders and using them. On page 29 the second paragraph " A number of models in the IG army have the ability to issue on or more orders each turn."

I tell him to read the third and fourth paragraph of the book on when and how to issue them. But, the only thing he says is that the Rule book backs his statement up and he proceeds to shoot his squad again at me. At that time I just pick my models up and went home.

Is he right about this, can squads shoot twice in the same game turn? Did GW leave this big loop hole for use to fill in? I hope I have given enough information so anyone can come up with a good explanation for me to say back and not have this done again to me. Because he is planning on doing this in the Hard boyz tournament. And the guy running it believes he will can do this also.

Please help this lost soul in finding some light in this world of darkness call Warhammer 40k.

No he doesn't. Tell him to stop being an donkey-cave or you won't play him anymore.

That guy was a dirty cheater. Take his mother on a nice date then NEVER CALL HER AGAIN.

If someone tried that on me.. i would probably do the same.

TBH I have not played a game with the new IG dex but have looked at it a lot and made some lists. It just does not seem right that they could do that.

However I do believe that they could do other things like issue the INCOMING order but it would have to be at the START of the shooting phase similar to SOB. Not after the opponent declares that he is shoot x squad at you. However I am not 100% on this. I do not have the dex in front of me.

smart_alex wrote:TBH I have not played a game with the new IG dex but have looked at it a lot and made some lists. It just does not seem right that they could do that.

However I do believe that they could do other things like issue the INCOMING order but it would have to be at the START of the shooting phase similar to SOB. Not after the opponent declares that he is shoot x squad at you. However I am not 100% on this. I do not have the dex in front of me.

No, just because he can issue orders in the shooting phase, does not mean he can do it in the opponents turn. INCOMING! is meant for you to forgo shooting in your turn to get +2 in the next. Notice how the sisters power specifies the opponents turn

Again, just tell him you will never play him again and he will stop doing it sharpish.

Thanks Gwar!. But, if you could please give a reason why he can't. I believe he can't. But I have to give a reason why he can't so I might have a foot to stand on.

the real big e wrote:Thanks Gwar!. But, if you could please give a reason why he can't. I believe he can't. But I have to give a reason why he can't so I might have a foot to stand on.

Because you may not do ANYTHING unless specifically allowed on your opponents turn.

it is a stupid "loophole" that does not work but people just shout loudly and loudly until the opponent quits or gives in. Tell him it doesn't work and that you will make sure no-body ever plays him again if he keeps doing it

Yep. There is no ability that works on the opponents turn that doesn't say either 'opponents turn' or, sometimes, 'any players turn'.

To frame it in a better logical context, I would explain it like this.

The rules are specific on when your models can take any sort of action. As all of the model's action is specifically done in players turn, you need a specific rule that over rides the general. I.E. It saying specifically that it can be used in your turn.

I just want to clear that up because the argument that was being made is that the rules have to specifically tell you everything, whilst that is true, you need to also examine the context of how the rules are telling you to do things. In this instance, he was violating the specific rules on when your models can take action.

So technically the order can be given on any turn, but the unit can only actually fire on their own turn

shrug

I see lots of rabble and conjecture but no one actually quoting any rules to invalidate this loophole.

It's quite obviously an oversight, but seems legitimate. Just don't count on any TOs (or opponents, for that matter) letting you get away with it. Kind of like the whole Terminators don't have Terminator Armor thing.

The guy was cheating, plain and simple.

Even if you interpret orders as being able to be issued during an opponents turn (which I believe is a gross misinterpretation of the rules), there is nothing that would allow him to fire during your turn. So basicaly, he would be issuing an order that was unusable by the unit recieving it.

Danny Internets wrote:I see lots of rabble and conjecture but no one actually quoting any rules to invalidate this loophole.

It's quite obviously an oversight, but seems legitimate. Just don't count on any TOs (or opponents, for that matter) letting you get away with it. Kind of like the whole Terminators don't have Terminator Armor thing.

Wow, you all are right in what the RAI is trying to do. But with RAW taking presence and no rules invalidating this loophole. I will never play this person again and I will have to find another shop to play at for the Hard Boyz tournament. But, before I go some where else I have to see how they are letting their IG players play the Codex.

Or, a FAQ will come out and clear this right up before then.

I would like to thank everyone that took time out and gave a reply back. I know that this is one of the questions that Yakka face put in the top thread. I was just trying to see if their was a easy way handling this situation.

Alerian wrote:The guy was cheating, plain and simple.

Even if you interpret orders as being able to be issued during an opponents turn (which I believe is a gross misinterpretation of the rules), there is nothing that would allow him to fire during your turn. So basicaly, he would be issuing an order that was unusable by the unit recieving it.

Actually, the specific rules for the order says the unit receiving the order immediately gets to shoot at the target unit. It's very explicit.

IG codex, p.30: "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target."

Yes, it says "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target."

Does it say "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target and ignores any other rule they wish to ignore."?

No it does not. The shooting rules only let you fire in your own Shooting phase. If your IG orders can let you shoot in my turn, my Monstrous Creature Rules can let me fire in yours

This is such rules lawyering its naeseating.

It also says that orders can only be issued,

" before you move or shoot"

can you move or shoot in your opponents phase, No.

The only way to make this work is to streatch a phrase in the BRB apply it to the codex and then work your way back to trying to justify something that is obviously broken.

The tournament I was at this last weekend took the position I liked. Anyone trying this would be given one warning then banned from the store for life.

Way to go Adventureres Guild of Harrisburg PA for making sure this kind of ridiculous BS is not allowed in your store.

In my club you don't even get a warning you just get a kick in the balls. And my Club is mostly 12 year olds. I'm such a big man!

Gwar! wrote:In my club you don't even get a warning you just get a kick in the balls. And my Club is mostly 12 year olds. I'm such a big man!

In my club, we kick each other in the balls until one conceeds. I always go first, then immediately conceed the arguement before reprisal.

Wow, horrible. I probably would have done exactly the same as you. If this was an organized event or something in the future all I can recommend is find someone who is an authority on the rules in your area and have them explain it to the IG player.

People should try to play the game, not try to play the rules.

It must be the beginning of the shooting phase for an order to be used, correct?

Just shoot something. Interrupt him, say that you shoot something at something else. It's no longer the beginning of the shooting phase, your opponent can't issue any orders.

Piece of pie.

Or even better, say at the beginning of the game:
I declare in advance that I shall nominate this unit to shoot with exactly one Planck time after I declare that I have begun my shooting phase. If this unit is not present or unable to fire, I shall nominate this unit. If that unit is etc etc...

Since your opponent cannot by the laws of nature declare his orders before that, it means he cannot issue orders in your phase (he can't anyway, but just to be safe)

Or just Kick him in the balls as a premtive strike in anticipation of his D.B.ery

Oh, god, no, don't hit any player who tries to issue orders during someone else's turn.

To really hurt them, force them to read through the forum posts discussing that rule until they agree to never do it again.

Wait wasnt there a 12+ page discussion on this ?

There was. It came down to (IIRC)," It has to specifically tell you that you can do something in an enemies turn." There were a lot of examples of other similar situtations that used the same logic and were more ridonkulous, such as the MC's firing in "every turn". Go go Dakkafex!

Here's one such argument. I could've sworn that there was a longer one that got locked.

Danny Internets wrote:Actually, the specific rules for the order says the unit receiving the order immediately gets to shoot at the target unit. It's very explicit.

IG codex, p.30: "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target."

You might also check all of the stuff related to Orders and notice that when an IG officer fails to give orders he or the ordered squad may not give/receive more orders that turn, BUT BOTH SQUADS MAY STILL ACT AS NORMAL THAT SHOOTING PHASE. What is your normal action in the enemy shooting phase? Exactly. :-)

Yes, it says "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target."

Does it say "The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target and ignores any other rule they wish to ignore."?

No it does not. The shooting rules only let you fire in your own Shooting phase. If your IG orders can let you shoot in my turn, my Monstrous Creature Rules can let me fire in yours

Codex rules trump rulebook rules. You know this.

Once again, lots of rabble but no quoting of rules. Your opinion is noted, but not relevant to whether or not the loophole is legitimate within the rules. Hell, I don't like it either nor would I even consider letting someone get away with it in a game, but I at least recognize it as a problem in how the rules are written.

Spetulhu wrote:

You might also check all of the stuff related to Orders and notice that when an IG officer fails to give orders he or the ordered squad may not give/receive more orders that turn, BUT BOTH SQUADS MAY STILL ACT AS NORMAL THAT SHOOTING PHASE. What is your normal action in the enemy shooting phase? Exactly. :-)

You might want to re-read that yourself. You said when an officer FAILS to give orders, blah blah blah. What happens if he succeeds? According to the rules, the unit receiving the orders immediately gets to shoot at the nominated target.

If it's my player turn and I choose not to select any of your IG units to move, shoot, or assault while only selecting only my units to move, shoot, and assault (per the 5th Ed rule book my units may only be selected during my player turn), how is it that you would ever have the chance to gave an order during my player turn? Last I checked, it's the player who's turn it is that determines which units do what and in which order unless a specific rule creates an interrupt to my (or your) turn sequence.

Does the new IG codex specifically say that you may interrupt your opponent's player turn to give orders? If so, please quote.

SJ

This topic has been brought several times in my play group. RAW and RAI are always a debate for 40k-ers.

My thoughts.

There is a presidence, 2nd edition Overwatch rule, firing on opponents turn. Is this this similar? Maybe, maybe not. I see both sides of argument. Saying your opponent can't do because you say so isn't valid. Need to back up with a ruling.

Codex rules override BRB always.

GW needs to FAQ this ASAP. Not surprised is this is way they intended with the way codex was written. Another example of overpowering codex trumping previous books.