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Christ all mighty, we're using 2nd edition Books as precedence now???

And here I thought people using the Eldar FAQ for the Guard Army were bad....

You want a Real "precedent"? Inquisitors with Mystics. it is EXPLICITLY stated it happens in the opponents turn. Orders do not, so they don't work in the opponents turn.

bigtmac68 wrote:This is such rules lawyering its naeseating.

It also says that orders can only be issued,

" before you move or shoot"

can you move or shoot in your opponents phase, No.

The only way to make this work is to streatch a phrase in the BRB apply it to the codex and then work your way back to trying to justify something that is obviously broken.

This. Since you have to issue orders before doing anything else. And since you cannot actually do anything during your opponents movement or shooting phase. Then you cannot issue orders on your opponents turn.

There are just too many things that rely on the words "per turn" or whatever that would automatically become completely stupid if you tried to apply this logic.

Something this big would be explicitly stated. GW would be announcing it on TV "Imperial Guard can shoot in your opponents turn! Buy Buy Buy! Flavor of the Month!!". If you have to use a fine tooth comb to find it, chances are it's not there.

Trasvi wrote:There are just too many things that rely on the words "per turn" or whatever that would automatically become completely stupid if you tried to apply this logic.

Something this big would be explicitly stated. GW would be announcing it on TV "Imperial Guard can shoot in your opponents turn! Buy Buy Buy! Flavor of the Month!!". If you have to use a fine tooth comb to find it, chances are it's not there.

This
Seriously though just dont play him. If he tries to pull it on you smack him over the head with BRB or fire with your MCs

Trasvi wrote:There are just too many things that rely on the words "per turn" or whatever that would automatically become completely stupid if you tried to apply this logic.

Something this big would be explicitly stated. GW would be announcing it on TV "Imperial Guard can shoot in your opponents turn! Buy Buy Buy! Flavor of the Month!!". If you have to use a fine tooth comb to find it, chances are it's not there.

Examples? I'm curious. I tried to find some myself, but came up short.

He can't just not play him. The TO for their 'Ard Boyz is allowing it. So, he needs to have rules, specific rules, to back him up. If he comes there and says "these guys on the internet say it is okay" then he'll have problems.

What I'm saying is that you guys need to provide rules and page numbers to explicitly state why IG can't issue orders in the opponents turn.

Because the rules for Orders do not say they can.
because you may not do anything without express permission in your opponents turn.
Because if they can then Dakkafexes can shoot in the enemy shooting phase too etc etc.

But seriously, if the TO of an 'Ard Boys is allowing it, i question the TO's fitness to be a TO.

Gwar! wrote:Because the rules for Orders do not say they can.
because you may not do anything without express permission in your opponents turn.

Codex rules > rulebook rules.

- Rulebook says that "turn" refers to "player turn" unless otherwise specified.
- Rules for orders say that they may be issued each turn
- Rules for orders allow unit to shoot IMMEDIATELY after receiving order

The logic is clear. You may not like it, but not liking it doesn't invalidate it.

Furthermore, the special rule for orders provides all of the "express permission" you need.

Because if they can then Dakkafexes can shoot in the enemy shooting phase too etc etc.

Dakkafexes don't have a special rule that they can invoke each player turn that allows them to shoot immediately.

Danny Internets wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Because the rules for Orders do not say they can.
because you may not do anything without express permission in your opponents turn.

Codex rules > rulebook rules.

Wrong. Sweeping Advance Proves it. Just because your codex says "You may do X" does not mean you also get to ignore Restrictions Y,Z and W

Danny Internets wrote:The logic is clear. You may not like it, but not liking it doesn't invalidate it.

Attack the Argument, not the person. Or do I need to get the Modhammers in here? The logic is not clear. The logic is convoluted and incorrect.

Danny Internets wrote:

Because if they can then Dakkafexes can shoot in the enemy shooting phase too etc etc.

Dakkafexes don't have a special rule that they can invoke each player turn that allows them to shoot immediately.

Gwar! wrote:Wrong. Sweeping Advance Proves it. Just because your codex says "You may do X" does not mean you also get to ignore Restrictions Y,Z and W

Deflect the argument all you want, but you and I both know that if the two come into contradiction, as they do here, then the codex wins out.

Attack the Argument, not the person. Or do I need to get the Modhammers in here? The logic is not clear. The logic is convoluted and incorrect.

If you had an argument, I would attack it, but you don't. You have an opinion. And, furthermore, attacking your method of arguing is not an ad hominem attack. I suggest you read up on it before making idle threats.

Oh but they Do!

Not per Turn, not per owners shooting phase, but Per shooting phase. The Dakkafex just got a whole lot scarier huh?

Fair enough--I'll recognize that as a rules blunder. Your turn!

You miss the point, it is not a rules blunder at all. It is worded like that because the entire game is based around the concept of you only doing stuff in your own turn.

When you CAN do something in the opponents turn (like Assault or Mystics) then it is CLEARLY spelt out.

You're citing precedent, not rules. Where does the rulebook say that any action performed out of the normal turn sequence must be explicitly described? Please quote the passage, or at least refer to a page number.

All I see is the following:

"TURN SEQUENCE EXCEPTIONS
There are times when a player is allowed to perform
actions during their opponent’s turn (fighting in an
assault being the most common example)."

-Sigh- Ok then, but you still can't order in my shooting phase, because orders must be done at the START of the shooting phase. If I nominate a unit to fire, even if I do it while you attempt to tell me you are using orders, the "beginning" has already come and gone.

It is a Moot Point. It cannot be done.

Gwar! wrote:-Sigh- Ok then, but you still can't order in my shooting phase, because orders must be done at the START of the shooting phase. If I nominate a unit to fire, even if I do it while you attempt to tell me you are using orders, the "beginning" has already come and gone.

Agreed. That would be the easiest way to circumvent the problem in the event of a hard-line RAW TO siding with the IG player.

I am with Gwar on this one. I am in South Carolina and a game came to blows because a guard player insisted he could shoot during his opponent's turn. It turned into a gang up on the guard player and they literally threw him out the door and chucked his army on the concrete.

G

If Guard are able to shoot on the opponent's turn, then anything that Deep Strikes and fires an Assault weapon can Assault that turn, because under the entry for Assault weapons it says "A unit may fire an Assault weapon and still Assault on that turn."

Still - without change, interruption, or cessation.

"A unit may fire an Assault weapon and, without change, interruption or cessation, Assault on that turn."

And obviously the deep strike rules change, interrupt and cease assaults, but "still," so not quite.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:If Guard are able to shoot on the opponent's turn, then anything that Deep Strikes and fires an Assault weapon can Assault that turn, because under the entry for Assault weapons it says "A unit may fire an Assault weapon and still Assault on that turn."

Still - without change, interruption, or cessation.

"A unit may fire an Assault weapon and, without change, interruption or cessation, Assault on that turn."

And obviously the deep strike rules change, interrupt and cease assaults, but "still," so not quite.

Specific rules > general rules.

"In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units may
not launch an assault (even if they have the ‘fleet’
special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules –
they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

Unless the model using the assault weapon has a special rule that clearly states an exception to the deep strike restriction then they may not assault.

Look at the basic movement rules, and the basic assault rules. They do not say they can only be done during your turn.

But this is a *turn* based game. The entire concept of the game is based around each player taking a turn. the rules also don't instruct you in how to roll dice, or that a tank is supposed to have the tracks on the bottom. It is a basic aspect of the game.

Okay I'm gonna go through this piece by piece.

1) You can issue orders every turn, which by the BRB is every player turn.

Okay any probem with the rules so far? No? Moving along.

2) You attempt to issue the order, and for the sake of argument let say you pass.

I see no rules prohibiting this.

3) That order tells you to immediately do ______.

As codex surperceds the BRB, you must do _____. If you can do A, and B, you have to do C.

I don't see where the rules prhibit this in any way? Yes it is unfavorable, yes it is wierd, and yes it is unusual. However, the rules still support it. I truly don't see why it is that big a deal. IG won't be broken by any stretch of the imagination, and IMO, infrantry IG would be on a better playing field with it's mounted brethern (Air Cav and Mechinized).

I welcome anyone to pick apart my train of logic, but please provide page number and cite rules.

Quoting from 4-28

LunaHound wrote:I love how in every type of game genre there are people attempting to abuse a rule because they lack common sense . Maybe GW didnt feel like they need to word it any more clear .


"Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run (whether the order was successful or not)."

So quoting that , it would mean they are also able to run and shoot in their enemy's phase.

Right....

Somnicide wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Guys , i brought that up on page 2 first post xD

It's because you're a girrrrrrrrrl!!!!

arinnoor wrote:I cannont so I guess my reasoning is flawed I'll withdraw myself from this dicussion. I must be missing something in the rules that I just can't find right now.

Yes, your reasoning IS flawed. Leaving a debate because you can't defend your argument is childish and petty. At least admit you are wrong or you do come off as childish.

That was kind of unnecessary. That is what this forum is for, he debated it for a while and seems to have come around. Leaving a debate because you can see that perhaps your initial thoughts might have been flawed to do more research is not childish, it is actually pretty mature rather than just sticking with it no matter what.

edit: LunaHound, I missed your post on page 2, you just need to hammer it repeatedly :-p Here, I will say it. LunaHound was right and her argument was absolutely valid and supportable by the rules. I took her idea and ran with it.

Case closed.

You can issue orders in a Chimera, to a squad outside a Chimera. If it required you to run(since you can still shoot out of a Chimera), then wouldn't this not work? The Chimera's rules states nothing about it waving or changing how orders work, it just says they may issue orders. There are no alterations to how orders work other then you meassure from the Chimera's hull.

arinnoor wrote:You can issue orders in a Chimera, to a squad outside a Chimera. If it required you to run(since you can still shoot out of a Chimera), then wouldn't this not work? The Chimera's rules states nothing about it waving or changing how orders work, it just says they may issue orders. There are no alterations to how orders work other then you meassure from the Chimera's hull.

So you are telling me IG can run and shoot in both player's and enemy's turn. Yes or No?

Because by saying you can give order in enemy's turn thats also validating they can also run and shoot during enemy's turn.

I am not saying you can run or shoot in the enemy's turn. I am saying that if running is a requirment then the Chimera's rule is redundent as you wouldn't then be able to use the order as you can't run in a vehicle. The Chimera doesn't remove anything about issuing orders. You follow all the rules for issuing orders, except that you replace meassuring from whoever is issuing the order, to meassuring from the Chimera's hull.

Do you honestly think GW would create an army that could potentially fire twice as much and twice as often as any other army in the game, and NOT make a big advertising campaign about it?
GW was all like "OMG get a load of this! Heavy 15 tanks OMG!!!1!! Buy it now!"
If a rule like this truly did exist, then GW would be milking it for all the profit they could for selling a Flavor of the Month army.

Again: i generally find that if a rule interpretation is controversial and you need to search and apply weird inflections of other rules to make it work, the more conservative view wins out.

arinnoor wrote:Okay I'm gonna go through this piece by piece.

1) You can issue orders every turn, which by the BRB is every player turn.

Okay any probem with the rules so far? No? Moving along.

2) You attempt to issue the order, and for the sake of argument let say you pass.

I see no rules prohibiting this.

3) That order tells you to immediately do ______.

As codex surperceds the BRB, you must do _____. If you can do A, and B, you have to do C.

I don't see where the rules prhibit this in any way? Yes it is unfavorable, yes it is wierd, and yes it is unusual. However, the rules still support it. I truly don't see why it is that big a deal. IG won't be broken by any stretch of the imagination, and IMO, infrantry IG would be on a better playing field with it's mounted brethern (Air Cav and Mechinized).

I welcome anyone to pick apart my train of logic, but please provide page number and cite rules.

Your missing the part that says...

"before you move or shoot."

When can you move during your opponents turn? When can you normally shoot during your opponents turn? Since you can't do either, its impossible to issue orders because there is no moving or shooting to be done later. Also to prevent this all your opponent has to do is shoot or move anything on his side of the table and you can no longer be said to be doing anything before moving and shooting.

Also since its the player that controls the events of his turn he can technically go straight from his movement phase to his assault phase. Bypassing his shooting phase all together if he has no shooting to do.

@Trasvi- Were I live we don't recive much hype from GW. Just White Dwarf and the Email Newsletter and niether of those seam to adevertise anything more then hey look at these new models.

What wierd infections are you talking about? Is it the whole turn=player turn thing? That is defined in the BRB. No one can argue that I am wrong there.

@Jayden63- The ability to move or shoot (it is actually before you shoot or run) is not a requirement to issue an order, you just must do it before. As I explained to LunaHound, to quote myself.

I am saying that if running is a requirment then the Chimera's rule is redundent as you wouldn't then be able to use the order as you can't run in a vehicle. The Chimera doesn't remove anything about issuing orders. You follow all the rules for issuing orders, except that you replace meassuring from whoever is issuing the order, to meassuring from the Chimera's hull.

So are you saying I cannot issue orders out of a Chimera?

Also to prevent this all your opponent has to do is shoot or move anything on his side of the table and you can no longer be said to be doing anything before moving and shooting.

Also since its the player that controls the events of his turn he can technically go straight from his movement phase to his assault phase. Bypassing his shooting phase all together if he has no shooting to do.

I hate to say it, but other abilities can simply be skipped over if that was the case. As I said in the last thread, all the IG player has to say is that he is going to use the ability at the begining of your shooting phase. If you deny him this it is you (I don't mean you personaly) that is being a jerk. For example, Warptime (the Chaos Space Marine Psychic Power) can be used only at the begining of each players turn. As a player fighting Chaos Marines I can perfectly and legaly just skip his ability even if he expressed interst to use said rule before hand. What would that make me though, a jerk.

Then I am moving in your movement phase, and assaulting in your assault phase.

The rules say I can.

.

coredump wrote:Then I am moving in your movement phase, and assaulting in your assault phase.

The rules say I can.

.

Quote me this...oh wait...you can't.

Che-Vito wrote:

coredump wrote:Then I am moving in your movement phase, and assaulting in your assault phase.

The rules say I can.

.

Quote me this...oh wait...you can't.

coredump is right , read my post a few paragraphs up.

Che-Vito wrote:

coredump wrote:Then I am moving in your movement phase, and assaulting in your assault phase.

The rules say I can.

.

Quote me this...oh wait...you can't.

It is kind of fun when people are snide and arrogant. But it is BIG FUN when thwy also don't know what they are talking about...

to wit

The rules in Movement state that infantry moves upt to 6" in the movement phase. It does not say it has to be your movement phase.
The rules for assault, details assaulting in the assault phase. They do not say it has to be your assault phase.
Shooting, however, does say it only happens in your shooting phase.


Now, of course, this is all ridiculous when someone realizes that this is a *turn* based game, and that you will need a very explicit rule to change that. But some people are apparently not that picky. So if you want your Guard to issue orders in both phases. My Stealers are moving and assaulting in your turn also.