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Neconilis wrote:

the_Armyman wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

the_Armyman wrote:Would I steal a boxed set off a shelf? No.
Would I cast a 1 cent piece of plastic for my own use? Yes.


I make a rational decision to break a law because the percieved harm is low enough for my own and society's tolerances.

Sorry but i cant .... i Lolled

I guess those of us who don't have your impeccable lineage can't quite live up to your lofty standards. But thank you for dying for all of our sins 2000 years ago. Much appreciated! Tell your Father I said "hihi."

Bravo sir, bravo.

Whats with you guys that feels the need to bash someone that doesnt do wrong things on purpose? Im not on any high horse you jerks , or did i make someone uncomfortable
by sparking the feeling humans once had " guilt "

And no the anger isnt just on action of counter feiting , its on people having the audacity to claim it doesnt hurt anyone when it does.

Also, since this thread has provoked the same damn response and a new rant would only cause me to use words not censored by the word filter, copy and paste away.

An Angry & Bitter fething donkey-cave Who Hates These fething Threads Full of Bourgeois Martyrs Ready to Sacrifice Themselves Upon The Altar of Capitalist Morality wrote:These threads... Jesus fething Christ, really? I mean, really? Worry about something that matters. World hunger, lack of healthcare, racism, child labor, rape, murder. Actual fething crimes. Not how I can correlate, not prove mind you, how casting fething OOP miniatures in my basement is immoral and 'steals' money from a corporation that price gouges its customers to no fething end because most continually take it.

Seriously, if you want to ride a high fething horse, make sure it's taking you someplace worthwhile, not OMG they be making counterfeit toys! ...and you know what? Even then, even if the world had no 'real' problems, the shear cries of offense arising from this are totally out of line with the actual offense. It's like being pulled over for speeding and being shot by the cop.

Seriously people, the feth?

P.S.: Sorry for going off, but really...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Whats with you 2 that feels the need to bash someone that doesnt do wrong things on purpose?

Luna, I seriously and wholeheartedly respect your view, but the way you deliver it and present it reeks of arrogance and moralistic superiority and that does nothing but cause an instant and adversarial stance deserving of the same. Is it childish, well yes it is, but sometimes you want to submit to that level of debate as well.

I will not try to change your view, because you believe what you believe with utmost faith, and I think it's time we all accept that of each other. Lest anyone want to continue a debate on morality, which by definition is not black and white, and certainly not over an act such as this one.

If you want to keep that up however, anyone, well I'll be here posting gak too until this thread finally ends.

And Cheese, bravo to you too.

Wrexasaur wrote:

solkan wrote:I don't see any way of disputing that producing duplicates of someone (or something) else's copyrighted figures is a violation of copyright.

On the practical side, let's stop and consider the situation. There's a hypothetical person decides that they need two dozen identical melta guns so much that they're willing to buy a casting kit because they don't want to pay the money for two dozen GW melta guns. What's the best thing which that hypothetical person should do? What that person should do is build a custom meltagun, using greenstuff, plastic card, random parts of other guns, or whatever, and cast two dozen copies of their own meltagun. As much effort as it is to do decent castings of figures, it's not much more work to just scratch build your own weapons. You get your two dozen meltaguns, you don't violate copyright, and everyone's happy, and just think how much you'd grow as a hobbyist making your own weapons.

And just to take the practical side further, if a person feels compelled to have all of their figures using 100% current edition Games Workshop parts, that person needs a 'ing intervention. And if a person feels compelled to have out of print editions of current figures, then that person really needs an intervention. If for some reason you're playing a game which uses completely OOP figures, it's still the same situation. The figures are out of production, too bad, you should make your own because sculpting is just as much fun as painting is.

Honestly you should be making your game if you feel the way you do. I can't imagine not having SOME sort of trouble because of making replicas that were not 100% accurate, and you would be biting (copying) someones design anyway? So what is the point?

There may be a misunderstanding here. My point was that it's actually hard work to produce good casts of figures, whether those figures are your own or produced by someone else, and that instead of producing knock offs for their own use, a person would be better off producing copies of their own production. And I disagree with the whole 'But those figures are out of print, I can't get them any other way!' quite strongly. A person doesn't need limited edition figures or antiques to play a wargame, and "This is my complete army of Squat knockoffs" isn't nearly as impressive as "This is my complete army of legitimate Squat figures."

Just going off of the typical complaints used in support of casting, the person wants two dozen weapons for their army, but those weapons are only sold one per box. So how does a person get two dozen weapons?
a) Buy two dozen boxes of figures, wasting money on unwanted stuff
b) Buy two dozen parts from bits services, which may not even be possible
c) Make two dozen replicas of the official model, meaning that copyright on the original sculpture is being infringed
d) Convert the weapons from other sources, typically meaning that the two dozen weapons will be varying in appearance.
e) Make your own weapon and cast two dozen copies of that, the solution which requires the most work

A's too expensive, B's hard to find, C's the whole cause of these on going threads, D produces spotty results, and E's intimidating but easier than people think. If you look at the GW weapons and think "How could that look better?" that's the way to go. I mean, the designs for the 40K weapons have changed enough over the years that making one's own variant shouldn't be a problem. And honestly I'd rather read a thread about figuring out whether or not those weapons would be derivative works than I would about recasting figures.

I honestly wonder if GW knows what is best for them sometimes... just a thought really, no need to bite me for it.

Everybody has the right to make their own mistakes, businesses included, whether they want it or not.

Every penny you spend on meltas is money that could've been spent on feeding starving African children. They're dead now, just because you wanted to kill some plastic tanks. I hope you're happy, Luna.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

...I know it shouldn't be, and for so many reasons, but that's kinda funny.

I'm a horrible person.

Not at all Sid, you'd support starving African children and think that's an important issue. You're a good man/chicken.

Some guy once tried to argue that he could park in front of my friend's driveway because there were starving children. It was lulzy.

Neconilis must be his brother or something.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Some guy once tried to argue that he could park in front of my friend's driveway because there were starving children. It was lulzy.

Neconilis must be his brother or something.

Not sure how to take that Orke, but it made me laugh ;-) Sadly though, I am an only child.

Well, recasting models and starving children have nothing to do with each other.

Unless Cheese Elemental's opening post was "What would people think if I recasted models and caused droughts in Africa?" and I missed it.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, recasting models and starving children have nothing to do with each other.

Unless Cheese Elemental's opening post was "What would people think if I recasted models and caused droughts in Africa?" and I missed it.

Orke, as much as the inappropriate pics put me in the same category as Sid, the simple fact that I'm not in Canada should let you know that they're not mine.

Also, as much as I've disagreed with Luna over this in the past, I've actually been pretty amicable with her and talked to her at other times as well. This, well these threads certainly piss me off and that's no mystery, but even I draw the line somewhere. Not that I won't laugh at someone willing to take the comedy to ludicrous extremes to prove a point.

This is almost like watching PETA argue...

"Note"
That was funny, you are officially not... (dot, dot ,dot)

LunaHounde wrote:Nonsense.

Some of the grown ups are trying to have a conversation here.

Janthkin wrote:

LunaHounde wrote:Nonsense.

Some of the grown ups are trying to have a conversation here.

The people with funny hats are talking too dammit!

Wether you sell the recast models or not, you are breaking the law simply by making the copy. Period. No discussion necessary.

Wether you'll be prosecuted is a different matter entirely. If GW doesn't know you make recasts, they cannot come after you.
But making a thread here and expecting people to say; "It is fine and OK to make copies" is simply stupid.
I dare say that 90 % of the people on this board also illegally downloads MP3s, but it doesn't change that it is illegal.

Neconilis wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, recasting models and starving children have nothing to do with each other.

Unless Cheese Elemental's opening post was "What would people think if I recasted models and caused droughts in Africa?" and I missed it.

Orke, as much as the inappropriate pics put me in the same category as Sid, the simple fact that I'm not in Canada should let you know that they're not mine.

Also, as much as I've disagreed with Luna over this in the past, I've actually been pretty amicable with her and talked to her at other times as well. This, well these threads certainly piss me off and that's no mystery, but even I draw the line somewhere. Not that I won't laugh at someone willing to take the comedy to ludicrous extremes to prove a point.

I was reffering to the "An Angry & Bitter fething donkey-cave Who Hates These fething Threads Full of Bourgeois Martyrs Ready to Sacrifice Themselves Upon The Altar of Capitalist Morality" rant.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, recasting models and starving children have nothing to do with each other.

Unless Cheese Elemental's opening post was "What would people think if I recasted models and caused droughts in Africa?" and I missed it.

Orke, as much as the inappropriate pics put me in the same category as Sid, the simple fact that I'm not in Canada should let you know that they're not mine.

Also, as much as I've disagreed with Luna over this in the past, I've actually been pretty amicable with her and talked to her at other times as well. This, well these threads certainly piss me off and that's no mystery, but even I draw the line somewhere. Not that I won't laugh at someone willing to take the comedy to ludicrous extremes to prove a point.

I was reffering to the "An Angry & Bitter fething donkey-cave Who Hates These fething Threads Full of Bourgeois Martyrs Ready to Sacrifice Themselves Upon The Altar of Capitalist Morality" rant.

Ah, well as you were then. It made me laugh, sigh and be pissed all at once as I typed it, so I kept it.

Um so just have a small question?

has anyone here consulted a Attorney about what constitutes IP copyright laws?

as i have dealt with these in the past i should interject the following facts.

1. recasting or otherwise replicating items for personal use is NOT Illegal , though placing said items for sale or even giving them to a friend IS Illegal.

2. in several published GW products it was stated that items were replicated and permission was given to do so. Also the Term Scratchbuilt has been allowed since the early days of 40k ( anyone have the white dwarf with the templates to build your own baneblade? i do).

3. going after a single slob who has made a extra 2 or 3 old rogue trader marines for his personal use is financial suicide. the costs for such a case as well as the negative publicity far outweigh what would be gained. if gw could win it at all. please also note that these sort of legal cases do not get resolved overnight. they take months if not years and involve no fewer then 3 court apperances before it would even reach a trial stage, which any any point could be thrown out very easily.ohh and to the arguements that thats why they have layers on retainer, go talk to a lawyer as to what that means. no lawyer worth there salt would sign any contract that would put them into cases at a drop of a hat. each one will cost gw a fortune in legal fees, even on retainer. Now going after that Chinese Company that just copied that new space marine drop pod and has mass produced them claiming there the real thing... thats another story

so bottom line here you do it for personal use with no intention of selling or distributing you are perfectly safe. that doesnt mean make 1000 space marine terminators and show them off to everyone.That could get you in trouble.

i personnaly cast several bits here and ther to help outfit my minis if i cannot readily get them from one of the bits places or buy them direct

if you do it for personal use i dont have a problem with it, you do it for profit then your scum that needs to get caught and prosecuted.

I'm ambivalent towards recasting. I own some pewter models whose authenticity is questionable. All of them purchased bona fide from respectable eBay sellers. The moral thing would be to raise hell about the issue, demand my money back etc, but doing that would incur additional costs for me having to send said items back to the seller, and any reimbursement might not ever materialize at all.

The second moral course of action would be to simply destroy the offending models. Again, that would incur a cost to me since I would have wasted the money I spent, in good faith. So again the moral thing to do would only hurt me. And frankly, I might be willing to suffer personal loss to do the right thing, but not for something as trivial as a game of toy soldiers.

Then there's the aspect of certainty. Recasts aren't advertised as such, and I cannot be certain that the dodgy items I have actually are recast, though the balance of probability is leaning in favor of that option. Citadel back in the 1980s wasn't a high tech moulding company, the quality of their casts back then was consistent with what a skilled home caster could make today. I suppose a detailed analysis of the metal in question would tell me for sure (as I doubt modern recasters use the authentic lead alloys of the period), but again, it is a cost I'm not willing to pay for the sake of achieving a tiny moral high ground.

As such, I have numerous models in limbo. Not quite kosher, not quite pariah. In the end, I just clean off the double mold lines and paint them up, because that's what I bought them for. As for selling them, I'm guessing the question will never arise during my lifetime. I like my collection, and don't see us parting ways anytime soon.

Wrexasaur wrote:This is almost like watching PETA argue...

"Note"
That was funny, you are officially not... (dot, dot ,dot)

Good idea!

"Lunahounde." could you please not have this thread locked. I think it contains some interesting and valuable discussion that could be drawn out more.

Those are seals though, I just hope he didn't waste the parts leftover after his rage-based freak-out. I actually am not offended by that picture, I used to keep the whale blood sea one as a background... HAH! yeah you know the one buddy.

Anyway, if you want to talk about this that is cool, it seems like you just want to shut the thread down.

Manchu wrote:"Lunahounde." could you please not have this thread locked. I think it contains some interesting and valuable discussion that could be drawn out more.

I agree, this is chock full of great debates, and a lot of lawyer know what-not-backwards-up stuff too. (Know-how is mandated by law as the IP of Big-Meks only, so you better learn to listen to dem.)

I would appreciate if the MODS would just take out the bad stuff instead, and lock dudes account if they see so fit to see saw do.

I suppose it also bears saying that I don't keep my questionably-provenanced miniatures out of any direct wish to cause GW harm, even though I do wish it*. Also, in order to acquire the miniatures I want (1980s and early 90s Citadel classics), I have to run the risk of recast items every single time, inescapably.

* I wish to see GW brought to an end because I like change. I'd all myself an anarchist were it not for the actual political anarchist movement being so utterly distasteful, but I suppose I'm a person who wants to see chaos and change unfold on the world, to see borders dance back and forth on the map and the merry cutthroat waltz of corporate competition. And GW has been king of the hill for too long.

Wrexasaur wrote:Those are seals though, I just hope he didn't waste the parts leftover after his rage-based freak-out. I actually am not offended by that picture, I used to keep the whale blood sea one as a background... HAH! yeah you know the one buddy.

Anyway, if you want to talk about this that is cool, it seems like you just want to shut the thread down.

Manchu wrote:"Lunahounde." could you please not have this thread locked. I think it contains some interesting and valuable discussion that could be drawn out more.

I agree, this is chock full of great debates, and a lot of lawyer know what-not-backwards-up stuff too. (Know-how is mandated by law as the IP of Big-Meks only, so you better learn to listen to dem.)

I would appreciate if the MODS would just take out the bad stuff instead, and lock dudes account if they see so fit to see saw do.

Glad to be of service!



The second part.

Manchu wrote:"Lunahounde." could you please not have this thread locked. I think it contains some interesting and valuable discussion that could be drawn out more.

"....... I think it contains some interesting and valuable discussion that could be drawn out more."

"... interesting and valuable...."

"...drawn out more..."

No, not the baby seals! You monster!

or even giving them to a friend IS Illegal.

Huh, now I wouldn't have called that one. Makes sense though, but I always just thought it was the sale of recast parts that was forbidden.

As for my own take on recasting, which I'm sure no one is interested in, I'm with most of you in that I'm opposed to people casting entire models for sale on eBay. And while I realize that it isn't exactly "hobby" to cast anything that began life as a GW bit, even if you aren't going to sell it or give it to someone else, sometimes it's just practical. For instance, when people are doing heavily converted armies with modified heads, torsos, etc., rather than painstakingly converting each and every bit, you can do one or two masters and then make whatever number of copies you need. Obviously you can't go and recast your entire army with one box set, but as long as you buy the same number of boxes and GW doesn't get any less money from you, I don't see what the big deal is in making your conversion work go by a little easier.

You can still argue that it's illegal, even if you're buying the same number of kits from GW and aren't recasting an army like I said, but that's just how I see it. Personally I probably won't ever spend the money on the materials I need to recast anything so it's not something I have to worry about, but I sure as hell wouldn't lynch anyone if they admitted to making a cast and reproducing some of their more extravagantly-sculpted bits so they didn't have to kill themselves reproducing a certain head or armor pattern over and over.

So, on a completely unrelated note, have you accepted LunaHound as your lord and savior? (Please don't take that personally, we love you Luna!*)


*
"You have lost your balls!"


EDIT:

* I wish to see GW brought to an end because I like change. I'd all myself an anarchist were it not for the actual political anarchist movement being so utterly distasteful, but I suppose I'm a person who wants to see chaos and change unfold on the world, to see borders dance back and forth on the map and the merry cutthroat waltz of corporate competition. And GW has been king of the hill for too long.

...oooookay, then. That's gotta be one of the most pointless reasons I've seen anyone have for disliking GW. It isn't any specific thing they've done, you just want them to go away because...just because.

Well sure, that's fine for you since all your gak's counterfeit ( ), but I don't want my expensive army to be made worthless anytime soon and the longer GW stays in business the more I'll get out of that army.

And on the topic of politics, I'd rather see borders disappear entirely, rather than dance across the map. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I would love for humanity to unite under one banner and live in a true utopia rather than see everything turn to chaos.

Sidstyler wrote:

Huh, now I wouldn't have called that one. Makes sense though, but I always just thought it was the sale of recast parts that was forbidden.

No, the simple act of making a copy is illegal. Wether you buy a lot of GW boxes or not, or wether you resale or not has zero relevance.
Now if you take a GW item and modify it in a substantial way, it is now your original work and you can copy it to your hearts content. What is "Substantial"? Well, legal departments can discuss that forever.

A friend of mine took 10 IG heads and added balaclavas to them using Green Stuff. We then made a bunch of copies for his IG army. Has he broken the law? Has he made an original conversion several times (using recasting)? Is he toeing the line of violating GW IP?

You decide.

Steelmage99 wrote:You decide.

Well, seeing as how my opinion is the only one that matters...um...

*falls asleep*

Here is my 2 pence (or 50 cents) worth..........

I've bought off Ebay 12 Ork Deff Copters so I can use the Appoc. formation of 12 copters in the rule book. I am a BIG fan of WYSIWYG and strictly enforce it at our games we play. One of the rules of this formation is they all have 1 bomb, so I need x12 Ork Bombs. I went to GW Nottingham to buy them, and Forgeworld have now stopped supplying the bombs as a seperate item, you have to buy a 'Evy Bomma to get some.

So, I've bought a Bomma, to get the bombs, and following GW's instructions on their Hobby Articles page where they made a Green Stuff Mould to produce more Purity Seals supplied with many of their plastic kits, I will be making a green stuff mould for my bombs. This practise MUST be support by GW, else it would not be on their web site (not read WD so don't know if the article made it into there).

Do I feel guilty? No. I've bought an expensive model from GW, a large squad of models inderectly from GW, and now will re-cast some OOP parts from one model, to convert another model. I see no issue with this whatsoever, and knowing the staff at GW HQ Nottingham, neither would they, they'd probably applaud me for it.

Lets keep things realistic, this simple act is not going to collapse the GW wargiming industry. Now somebody mass producing and selling recasts would be wrong, but small parts for personal use to convery existing models is not.

Mod:

A certain user has generate a lot of complaints about this thread.

Just to let you all know I have got my eye on it.

/Mod: