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Ah nothing happens, because assaults all happen simultaneously unlike shooting. In the assault phase you have to assault with all the units that you are going to assault with. So I can't hold one unit back and then assault a unit that might pop out of the vehicle. So I guess that rule is really only there if you ED on your turn to stop you from just ED to pop out the front of your vehicle, so you don't potentially expose your weak armor sides and back or gain extra distance or some shenanigans like that.

*sigh* insaniak... for the purposes of rules involved, my point was that if a disembarking unit- moving into, through, out of etc... dangerous terrain during it disembarkment has to take a test--- a test only triggered by movement--- then it stands to reason that disembarkement = movement, and thus is subject to the same restrictions i.e.- can't move within 1" of enemy models.

If a transport was next to a.. high plateau for instance... say 6-7" higher... would you simply measure the 2" deployment horizontally only and thus allow models to deploy way up there?

Would you allow a transport next to a 5" tall, impassable wall deploy its troops straight through the wall simply because it is within 2"?

For both, I would hope, the answer is probably not-- because there are recognized limits to deployment movement i.e. blocking terrain features-- which the enemies serve as in this situation.

With that said, I want to go watch some grass grow.

Honestly I don't know why people are arguing that deploying, to deploy doesn't indicate movement.

Deploy
–verb (used with object)
1. Military. to spread out (troops) so as to form an extended front or line.
2. to arrange in a position of readiness, or to move strategically or appropriately: to deploy a battery of new missiles.

Seriously if you say deploying isn't moving then you don't know what deploy means. Just because the rule book doesn't define deploy, doesn't mean that it loses it's meaning. Well the book doesn't define "a", or "the" or "player" and many other words. That is what a dictionary is for.

The Dragon wrote:*sigh* insaniak... for the purposes of rules involved, my point was that if a disembarking unit- moving into, through, out of etc... dangerous terrain during it disembarkment has to take a test--- a test only triggered by movement--- then it stands to reason that disembarkement = movement, and thus is subject to the same restrictions i.e.- can't move within 1" of enemy models.

Yes, I got that. My counter-point was that Dangerous Terrain tests are not triggered specifically by movement.

If a transport was next to a.. high plateau for instance... say 6-7" higher... would you simply measure the 2" deployment horizontally only and thus allow models to deploy way up there?

Not sure what that has to do with the topic. But no, I wouldn't let them deploy there. Some players would, as they only measure everything horizontally, believing this to be a 2D game.

Would you allow a transport next to a 5" tall, impassable wall deploy its troops straight through the wall simply because it is within 2"?

I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't allow the deployment suggested at the start of this thread. But going by the response to the thread, others would disagree.

yak wrote:Disembarking is movement, as I have shown, this is not implication. Deep Striking is similarly described as being movement. Running is movement. Assaulting is movement. None of these are "normal" movement per se, but they are all still movement and therefore still follow the basic restrictions for moving.

I disagree.

Running and assaulting have clearly defined start and end points determined by where the model began the action and a maximum number of inches it can move. This is movement. Models performing these types of movements must clearly follow the "can't come within 1" of enemy models" restriction when moving. I'm with you so far.

Here's where I believe our interpretations differ. I submit that models deep striking and models deploying from a vehicle are not bound by those restrictions. I group them together because of their similarities. Deepstriking and disembarking are similar in that in each instance, the models do not start on the board. Models embarked in a transport are no more "on the board" than models waiting to deepstrike. The rules for deep strike and disembarkation simply create conditions describing where the model can (and can not) end up. These rules in no way restrict how the model gets there. There is no mandatory path the models must travel to get to their destination, and no restrictions on whatever "movement" it might take to get there, because these rules involve deploying models, not moving models. Just because you are physically moving your models onto the board does not make that action a movement which is restricted by the 40k movement rules.

Deep Strike says: "Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows. First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice." BGB P.95
Disembark says: "When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency. models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy" BGB P. 67

That difference is fundamental. These models do not begin the action on the board, so they do not have a starting point as would be required for a movement bound by the normal movement rules. That means these models are being deployed, not moved. This is different from typical "from reserves" deployment (which also involves models that do not begin on the board) for two reasons:
1. "from reserves" deployment invents an off-board starting point for you; and
2. "from reserves" deployment specifies that the models are moved "as normal"

"When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge ... Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal." BGB P. 94

Disembarkation, like deep striking, is model placement, not model movement, because the models do not begin the action on the board. Every disembarking model could, in theory, get out and run six vigorous laps around the vehicle, hopping gleefully from helmet to helmet of its foes, flagrantly flaunting the "can't come within 1" of enemy models" restriction on normal movement in every conceivable way, before I place it in its final resting place. The placement is governed by the rules. The "journey" to that final placement is not. What I do with the model before it gets there, how close it gets to enemy models in the meantime, what it passes over, etc., is irrelevant. What matters is its final resting place is within 2" of a transport's access point and not within 1" of an enemy model.

To interpret the rules for placing models differently would lead to absurd results in the context of deep strike. If you were forced to obey the 'basic restrictions for moving' when deep striking, you could not deep strike a non-outflanking unit onto the opposite side of the board if your opponent had a string of models in 2" coherency along the midfield line, as they would have to pass within 1" of an enemy unit to do so.

The Dragon wrote:my point was that if a disembarking unit- moving into, through, out of etc... dangerous terrain during it disembarkment has to take a test--- a test only triggered by movement--- then it stands to reason that disembarkement = movement, and thus is subject to the same restrictions i.e.- can't move within 1" of enemy models.

I disagree with this as well.

A model placed in dangerous terrain has entered it. A model that moved into dangerous terrain has entered it. In both cases a dangerous terrain test is triggered. Therefore the dangerous terrain test is not "only triggered by movement." Further, dangerous terrain tests can also be triggered by a deep strike, which, as I've argued above, is placement, not movement, and does not follow the normal restrictions for movement.


-GK

insaniak wrote:

The Dragon wrote:*sigh* insaniak... for the purposes of rules involved, my point was that if a disembarking unit- moving into, through, out of etc... dangerous terrain during it disembarkment has to take a test--- a test only triggered by movement--- then it stands to reason that disembarkement = movement, and thus is subject to the same restrictions i.e.- can't move within 1" of enemy models.

Yes, I got that. My counter-point was that Dangerous Terrain tests are not triggered specifically by movement.

If a transport was next to a.. high plateau for instance... say 6-7" higher... would you simply measure the 2" deployment horizontally only and thus allow models to deploy way up there?

Not sure what that has to do with the topic. But no, I wouldn't let them deploy there. Some players would, as they only measure everything horizontally, believing this to be a 2D game.

Would you allow a transport next to a 5" tall, impassable wall deploy its troops straight through the wall simply because it is within 2"?

I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't allow the deployment suggested at the start of this thread. But going by the response to the thread, others would disagree.

My mistake then, sorry

If this has been stated im sorry.

a transport completely surounded and is wrecked (ie a 5 on the dmg table) the unit inside is destroyed per the trapped rule. they cant stay withing the radius of the vehicle as it is impassible untill they deploy as per the wrecked results for transports, the unit diembarkes takes a pinning check then the vehicle is wrecked, they cant deploy at the 2" mark as you cant move through enemy units. Any other impassible terrain blocking the exit points on the vehicle (ie. cant fit a unit between the vehicle and the terrain without moving one of them) also counts towards being traped.

for an exploding vehicle (6+ on the dmg table) the unit is placed where the vehicle was and then take the S4 hit from the transport exploding, as well as all of the units surrounding the vehicle taking their s3 hits. take your casualties, and your pinning check and proceed with the game.

The "trapped" rule only applies to units falling back. Disembarking does not equal falling back.

-GK

sbeasley wrote:Honestly I don't know why people are arguing that deploying, to deploy doesn't indicate movement.

Deploy
–verb (used with object)
1. Military. to spread out (troops) so as to form an extended front or line.
2. to arrange in a position of readiness, or to move strategically or appropriately: to deploy a battery of new missiles.

Seriously if you say deploying isn't moving then you don't know what deploy means. Just because the rule book doesn't define deploy, doesn't mean that it loses it's meaning. Well the book doesn't define "a", or "the" or "player" and many other words. That is what a dictionary is for.

But the book does define what constitutes 'movement' and so it is important to know what is and is not classed as such - words take on different, more specific applications when used in a ruleset. I'm not arguing any particular point here, I'm just pointing out that you cannot rely on a language dictionary when dealing with specific game terms and concepts.

And I would argue that point. No where in the book does it define movement is ...

Atleast that I could find.

Any time a model changes place from one location to another it HAS moved

Some rules circumvent the rule rule of moving through units. Like skimmers, teleporting, jump infantry, etc.

But deployment doesn't state that you can move thru models. When you deploy you have an origin and a destination. So unless the unit has the ability to move through or over a unit then it can't.

sbeasley wrote:And I would argue that point. No where in the book does it define movement is ...

Atleast that I could find.

Any time a model changes place from one location to another it HAS moved

Some rules circumvent the rule rule of moving through units. Like skimmers, teleporting, jump infantry, etc.

But deployment doesn't state that you can move thru models. When you deploy you have an origin and a destination. So unless the unit has the ability to move through or over a unit then it can't.

Movement is defined by the entirety of the movement rules. "Deploying" is not mentioned in those rules.

It isn't the Movement section. It is the Movement Phase section of the book. That is where a majority of movement takes place, that is why a majority of the rules for it are there. It isn't the end all be all list of what movement is, unless it states movement is only this, this and this.

I'm arguing deployment is movement, because in all cases of deploying there is an origin there is a destination, so there is movement, and are therefore held to the rule of moving through units.

Deploying from reserves in all cases do not break this rule of moving through units. All deepstrike units either teleported, have jump packs or some way of moving through units, and in anycase they are porbably coming from the sky as there point of origin, and coming straight down onto the board.

Deployment at the beginning of the game is okay because you can't deploy into an enemy deployment zone

Deployment of infiltrators have restrictions on how close you can deploy making it near impossible that they wouldn't be able to deploy and not have been able to come from a valid table edge

Deployment from reserves you position the unit on the board edge and move as normal weather from outflanking or normal reserve.

Deployment is movement, and must follow the restrictions of movement.

Deployment of infiltrators and deployment of your forces at the beginning of the game is two uses of the word "deploy" which are very, very conclusive not movement.

"Deploying" from reserves is movement in most cases... but I'm not sure if the rules actually use the word deployment to describe moving-from-reserves. I'll have to look that up.

In any case, your argument that deployment is movement in all cases is proven wrong by your own examples.

The English definition of deploy means to move strategically. I can help that you want to ignore what to deploy means.

What I said didn't help your cause at all. You just think it does based on what you think deploy doesn't indicate movement. I'm saying even if my army was in my army bag, and I deployed my forces on the board that they actually MOVED from my bag onto the board. They don't just magically materialize onto the battle field. Seriously.

It's obvious neither of us is going to convince the other either way. I say deploy means movement, you say it isn't.

I can't believe this arguement is still going on...

I think some people just love to argue.

Sbeasley's point is that different types of deployment describe types of movement from various A and B points. Deepstriking (in non teleporting units) is from the sky to the ground and therefore doesn't need to move through anything on the table, but does specify that the area the unit is landing on needs to be clear or else the unit dies. Deploying from the table's edge is moving onto the table as if the table extended beyond it's edge. How are these not also types of movements with special rules? Deploying out of a transport implies movement from point A (the transport) to point B (somewhere else than the transport).

Eveywhere else within the book specifies that moving through enemies units, teleporting too close to them or landing on top of them is a no no.

I still can't envision a world where making this arguement during a game wouldn't label a person as TFG.

GiantKiller wrote:The "trapped" rule only applies to units falling back. Disembarking does not equal falling back.

-GK

I was only using that as a more comonly known rule that has the same effect.

The rulebook states that a model cannot come within 1" of an enemy model during a move unless making an assault.
It also states in the disembarking rule that you cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy.
And it also states on pg 67 when a transport is wrecked you make an emergency disembarkation, any models that cant be placed are destroyed, then you make a pinning check, and after all tat the vehicle becomes a wreck.

so technicly with a rhino you dont need to surround it youd just need about 3 models on each long side and one in the back and the units inside will be destroyed if the vehicle wrecks.

ManwithIronHands wrote:

GiantKiller wrote:The "trapped" rule only applies to units falling back. Disembarking does not equal falling back.

-GK

I was only using that as a more comonly known rule that has the same effect.

The rulebook states that a model cannot come within 1" of an enemy model during a move unless making an assault.
It also states in the disembarking rule that you cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy.
And it also states on pg 67 when a transport is wrecked you make an emergency disembarkation, any models that cant be placed are destroyed, then you make a pinning check, and after all tat the vehicle becomes a wreck.

so technicly with a rhino you dont need to surround it youd just need about 3 models on each long side and one in the back and the units inside will be destroyed if the vehicle wrecks.

Except the emergency disembark rule allows them to disembark from any point on the hull if the normal access points are covered.

I'll admit, I didn't read ALL 5 pages. I just wanted to mention that Emergency Disembarkation can occur even if the vehicle isn't destroyed. I would think those marines would be able to survive, provided they are outside of the 1" required for movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ManwithIronHands wrote:The rulebook states that a model cannot come within 1" of an enemy model during a move unless making an assault.

I think the word intend is in there somewhere. I'm sure somewhere that will make a difference.

That's all true, which is why the arguement here is what happens when the vehicle is completely surrounded therefore necessitating a move through an enemy unit.

If disembarking does not count as moving then can heavy weapons fire after they disembark?

phillosmaster wrote:That's all true, which is why the arguement here is what happens when the vehicle is completely surrounded therefore necessitating a move through an enemy unit.

exactly

willydstyle wrote:Except the emergency disembark rule allows them to disembark from any point on the hull if the normal access points are covered.

missed that

Furthermore can Lasguns fire 24"?

Both smart points....smart alex. Smartly worded as well.

Except the Rules says they "Count as" moving, not that they actually moved. <nitpick>

Gwar! wrote:Except the Rules says they "Count as" moving, not that they actually moved. <nitpick>

Moving also counts as moving. The fact that it counts as moving more than suggests a relationship to movement.

They count as moving for the purposes of shooting their weapons. If the vehicle did not move, and you disembark, you may still move afterwards, so you haven't counted as moving for the purposes of movement. Counting as moving for the purposes of shooting does not mean you automatically follow all other rules for movement.

willydstyle wrote:They count as moving for the purposes of shooting their weapons. If the vehicle did not move, and you disembark, you may still move afterwards, so you haven't counted as moving for the purposes of movement. Counting as moving for the purposes of shooting does not mean you automatically follow all other rules for movement.

I don't see why we should assume it doesn't follow all the rules for movement unless otherwise stated, and I think that's the big difference between your viewpoint and mine.

*appended*

All that tells me is you've already started a movement.

The rules are pretty specific when they tell you that something does or does not follow the rules for movement.

Assaulting? Yes, follow the rules for movement, plus some extra.

Reaction move? Yes, follow the rules for movement, the rules for assaulting, minus some exceptions.

Disembarking from a vehicle? It doesn't say to follow the rules for movement, instead it has it's own set of specific rules.

Wow this thread has gotten far from its origonal question.

To sum up the last few posts, disembarking from a stationary vehicle counts as moveing for the purposes of shooting heavy waepons and rapid fire weapons, think of it this way. it takes time to set up a large heavy waepon if your pulling it out of your transoport your using the time you would generaly use to set it up for your shooting phase, same goes for firing a rapid fire weapon at its max range, anyone who has ever shot a gun at longer ranges knows what im talking about, it takes time to set up your shot to be sure your going to hit your target.

It is generally assumed that you forgo your moving to set up your heavy weapon or train your rifles sights on a target. your not going to have time to do this when disembarking from your transport as your collecting your gear (as most know its difficult to sit down with a pack on your back) and getting ready to move out. You can rapid fire after disembarking if you can picture a marine or guardsman running out the hatch of his rhino or chimera with his finger on his weaponts trigger opening up into the enemy.

Read your rule books its all in there.

I'd not argue that the rules are completely specific about anything. If the rules were absolutely specific we wouldn't need a YMTC board.

My point is that disembarking counts as moving because by exiting the vehicle you have started a movement. I mean you did physically move from inside a vehicle to the outside of said vehicle.

My arguement is the same arguement as yakface's. The rules are telling you that if you move after disembarking it's furthur movement. Therefore it doesn't need to explicitly state that you need to follow the rules of movement because you are moving. I don't see why we should assume it doesn't follow the rules just because it didn't explicitly state it does.