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I still believe that the SA does not affect Necron models that are already laying down at the time of the SA. WBB says models laying down "are ignored completely for all normal game purposes."

A Sweeping Advance is part of the core rules and I see no reason why it should not be considered part of "all normal game purposes." I believe it specifically needs to mention "Necron models waiting to make their WBB rolls that were part of the unit" in order to catch Necrons that are already down because of the "all normal game purposes" thing.

So then the Monolith Portal does nothing yes?
You can't have it both ways.

It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

Night Lords wrote:It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

THis is what we're debating.

The Monolith would still work as normal because it specifically mentions dead Necrons.

I have to admit that for all the models that were downed pre-sweep, I think they should be able to WBB as normal.

When they were killed, unlike with sweeping, they were removed as casualties-- no getting around that.

As for if they were still considered part of the unit? Ehh. it does say the 'ignore them' thing which would put them in what- a rule stasis?

Anyways, I don't see the problem with the left-overs standing up in this context. The models we're talking about weren't swept themselves nor were they considered , by the whole 'ignore them' clause, part of the unit.

Realistically, did they have to move like they were part of the unit if they had fallen back instead? Yes. Rules-based are they 'actually' part of the unit. I don't think so.

This seems to be yet another friggin weird thing about WBB. Being models that are 'practically' in the unit without actually being in the unit itself. Moving with the unit in fallback, but not counting towards coherency, etc...

Can anyone guess why they're getting FNP instead in the next codex? lol

Anyone wanting Downed models to get WBB after a SA must also make sure the Monolith Does nothing.

RobPro wrote:

Night Lords wrote:It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

THis is what we're debating.

The Monolith would still work as normal because it specifically mentions dead Necrons.

....that's the point.

The Monolith rules states the UNIT and any dead necrons that failed WBB are brought through. But how do you determine which units the dead necrons are part of?

If they are part of their parent unit (hint: they are) then the monolith works well. This has the flipside of meaning that the downed necrons are swept as they are still part of the unit.

IF they are not part of the parent unit, they have no unit affiliation and the downed necrons can NEVER be teleported. EVER.

So you can't have it both ways: if the monolith works, SA removes entire units including the downed necrons

Yes, there really isnt a problem with the rules kicking in like this: Models are shot, laid on their sides as WBB is applied. The unit loses cc and is swept, the SA rule removes ALL of the models including the models that are already casualties. Since the SA removes the unit the models arent ther for WBB to be used.

Look at it like this, if a unit of 3 necrons is assaulted by models with both PW and regular attacks and receive one regular wound and five PW wounds....would you claim that one of the models can make his WBB roll because the regular attack killed him? Even tho the same model also takes a PW wound?

If a unit is removed by something that ignores WBB then any previous WBB that is on the stack will still be overridden.


Sliggoth

I would have to say that the WBB rules weren't even particularly clear in 3rd edition when they were written.

However, I can't see where the debate is coming from here (after reading all 5 pages, and the other thread 6 weeks ago).

"No special rule can save them."

WBB is a special rule. Ergo, it cannot save them.

The model was part of the unit. The rules say when it becomes damaged it is put on its side and mostly ignored. The rules do *not* say it is no longer part of the same unit. There is no reason to change its status.

Also, the downed model moves with the unit.

The downed model teleports with the unit.

How can it *not* be part of the unit. Yes, it is a part of the unit that is mostly ignored, but it is still part of the unit.

Sort of like a bomb squig, or Eldar weapon platforms.

I think you guys need to look at it a little more closely. It looks like they may be part of the unit, but nowhere in the SA rules does it say to remove downed Necron models. Their unit is gone, but they are left behind "unitless." This does not contradict the Monolith rules as a unit of entirely dead models would be unable to teleport through it anyways.

Errm, SA does say to remove the downed necrons, because it removes the unit (which the downed necrons are part of). Unless they are not part of the unit, which means the Monolith does nothing

RobPro wrote:I think you guys need to look at it a little more closely. It looks like they may be part of the unit, but nowhere in the SA rules does it say to remove downed Necron models. Their unit is gone, but they are left behind "unitless." This does not contradict the Monolith rules as a unit of entirely dead models would be unable to teleport through it anyways.

I have to agree with Gwar! Damaged models are still part of the unit that they originally were with. Only if the damaged model is closer to a different unit on a successful WBB does it transfer to the closest unit of the same type, I believe. Otherwise the monolith wouldn't work as Gwar! states.

Also I'm confused as to why you think a WBB doesn't work if the entire unit is damaged.

I believe that an entire unit that is damaged, but is still within 6" of a like unit or a 12" of a tomb spyder and a like unit is on the board gets a WBB roll, if by chance that the entire unit failed it's WBB roll, and you opt to teleport that unit through the monolith at the end of your movement phase, you may get a reroll on all failed WBB rolls. Atleast that is my understanding of the rule.

I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

RobPro wrote:I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

And as we have pointed out Multiple times in this thread, Codex > Rulebook means jack. Sweeping Advance Clearly overrides the codex in every single regard with the sole exception of if the codex specifically mentions Sweeping Advance (ala ATSKNF).

If the downed necrons are part of the unit for the purposes of WBB re-rolls/Falling back, they are part of the unit for Sweeping Advance.

Just to back up the point Gwar is making, the GW FAQ also suggests that when a unit that has downed models falls back you actually move the downed models with the falling back unit.

In other words, even though the WBB rules don't specifically cover this, you kind of have to play that downed models are still part of the unit until they get back up again and join a different unit.

Any other interpretation doesn't make any sort of consistent sense when taking into account the Monolith's portal rule and GW's FAQ ruling.

yakface wrote:
Just to back up the point Gwar is making, the GW FAQ also suggests that when a unit that has downed models falls back you actually move the downed models with the falling back unit.

In other words, even though the WBB rules don't specifically cover this, you kind of have to play that downed models are still part of the unit until they get back up again and join a different unit.

Any other interpretation doesn't make any sort of consistent sense when taking into account the Monolith's portal rule and GW's FAQ ruling.

I are happy Trolle.

But even if you ignore the FAQ, the fact is for the Monolith to have any sort of effect whatsoever, they have to remain part of the unit.

RobPro wrote:I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

To add to Yakface and Gwar!: This has been covered *multiple times* - if the monolith works (it selects units) then the downed models are swept by SA as they are part of the unit. THe only *logically consistent* position is that they are part of the unit.

ALso say it with me: SPecific vs General. All the problems go away if you remember that specific rules trump general rules. 90% of the time this is codex over rulebook, but SA is one of those times when it isn't. If you stop thinking that the codex must always win out you 'll see your errors.

Ehhh, I have to agree.

You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls. In the last week and 1/2 we've covered:

WBB: what it really means for terms of use
WBB: Why it doesn't work with SA
WBB: Why models that were already downed are still swept with the unit


Anyways, I have one last foot ball to kick out here:

2 units of like-type near each other. One gets shot pretty bad and ends up leaving quite a few turned models on the side closest to the other unit of like-type.
WBB comes around next turn and it turns out that 3-4 models are actually closer to the other unit than their original unit they were part of. The N-Codex on p. 13 says "the repaired Necron will immediately be placed in coherency with the closest unit of the same type"

Thus, these 3-4 models would go and join the other unit. Suppose of these 3-4, one or two failed---- if you use the Monolith on this unit do the one or two which failed and were transferring also get a re-roll?

My weight lies behind the stand of NO, mostly because of what we've already discussed. Still, I think it warrants discussion since it further illuminated the relationship between WBB and the Monolith.


BTW, WBB not working with SA is not an example of the BGB trumping the codex at all. WBB does not work simply because the removal of models as per SA does not fall underneath the rule of WBB. WBB triggers when a model would be reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty. SA does not remove the models as a casualty. Thus THAT is the reason it does not work.

For the purposes of the general argument of codex v. BGB, BGB trumps in the circumstances of ultimate limits i.e. Max Strength, Max Leadership, Always passing Ld test on double ones, etc. Everything else is modifiable by codex with the codex having end say.

At least that's how it seems to me.

No, because they weren't part of the unit.

The FAQ is a neat idea but we'd need some cool Necron pics.

I think it's doable. I have a bunch of painted Necrons and a monolith. I also play SM so I can have a full-painted enemy army also.

A quick note: The "Monolith Doesn't work" part of the argument is true when discussing that PoV, but for different reasons, and it is not universally true. A unit must be transported, certainly, but everyone supporting the "models != unit" argument has already agreed that the unit is destroyed by sweeping advance. Of course the models can't be transported by the monolith, because there is no unit (as it has been destroyed).

The unit is gone, and the only way it is getting back up is to join another unit anyway. Thus the monolith can teleport a unit and have them reroll their wbb, because the models are not part of the original unit. Unfortunately, this means the ones downed from still can't get back up because they are not part of the unit being transported. The monolith still operates as normal with this PoV for normal squads, just not those downed by sweeping advances that turn.

I am personally a believer in the "models are part of the unit" PoV (as the definition of casualty argument overrides the distinction anyway), but I think that the other side's message is being misrepresented. And I also hate it when arguments don't move forward and people just iterate the same posts.

1) I can't believe this is still going on, and it's gone now to monolith ability.

2) I'm gonna have to agree with the fact that downed necrons, though down, are part of their parent unit. They cannot exist on their own, they aren't independent characters or a member of their own unit, therefore they still belong to their parent unit. Unit is removed, not "the unit, but not any casualties, are removed" the whole bleedin' unit is gone!

I think I might be seeing where you're going with this.

But I think it would really hinge on being able to make an argument that the models downed in a unit pre-SA and in range for WBB to another unit were considered to be exactly the same as the models downed originally from the unit they were moving into.

I guess what I'm saying is this--- How do we know there is a difference between a downed model that originally came from the unit the monolith is targeting versus a downed model originally from another unit that is attempting to WBB and move into cohesion with the unit the Monolith is targeting.

I think your theory would work better if the Monolith had said something along the lines of 'target a unit, transport them, and reroll any failed WBBs for all models that attempted to do so and would have moved into cohesion with this unit if they had succeeded'

Thing is---- it doesn't read that way. It says it rerolls for failed WBBs the unit made-- which suggests models downed are still attached to their unit. For the Monolith to still give re-rolls with this in mind would require the understanding that as soon as any Necron model is downed- it automatically joins the closest surviving unit of its type. This of course doesn't happen-- and we know that for sure because the FAQ has units of Necron falling back dragging their dead friends with them.

That is how we know the difference between dead Necron folks originally from the unit being targeted by a Monolith and other dead Necron who plan on moving into cohesion with the unit when they WBB or wouldn't as is the case in point.

PERHAPS, however I have completely misunderstood you. The other thing I think you may have been intimating was that pre-SA downed models still eligible for WBB should still be able to stand up and move into cohesion with another unit whilst thosewho failed are finally removed.

In that case, ... I still think you can't do it. The SA's effect of removing all models in the unit sans the mention of 'as a casualty' would also mean scooping up the downed models because, as we've already outlined above, they ARE in fact still part of the unit and here WBB doesn't save them.

So, as a recap, we have this
(1) If the unit is SA-- everything goes B/C the unit is simply removed, not removed as a casualty, thus WBB doesn't activate. What's more-- already dead Necrons also go away because they are still part of the unit.

(2) For Monolith consideration (not talking about swept units at all any more), if you have 2 units close enough to one another to the point that some of the models would move into the unit being targeted by the Monolith for transportation and WBB reroll, those models who would have moved into the targeted unit if they had passed WBB, but did not because they failed the test do NOT get a re-roll because they were not in fact part of the unit targeted.

--- Models move into cohesion after passing WBB and are not considered to automatically be part of the unit they are closest to when they die/are about to WBB into. Downed models are in fact still part of the unit they originally came from UNTIL they successfully pass a WBB test and move into their new unit---

@The Dragon:
Assuming you are responding to my post, the following is what I mean. People were saying that the monolith wouldn't work at all under the "models =! unit" interpretation. I was simply saying that while I agree with their position, the monolith would still work normally. As SA'd necrons can't be transported anyway (because, like you said, they are not part of the unit), they are partially right, but still misrepresenting the other side of the argument.

Eh, it was hard to tell for me.

Anyways, I think I would be happy not to see another WBB post for at least 2 weeks. I feel like a lawyer... the financial crimes kind.

You didn't file your 2wd 40 form : GUILTY!

The model only joins the new unit when it passes its' WBB - if it doesn't do so then it must stay with the same unit.

Think of unit assignment as a variable - when it passes the WBB the old value is written over and replaced with a new unit identifier.

The Dragon wrote:You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls.

If we can get an agreement of course
Heck, if we get as far as an FAQ with pics etc. I'll put my hand up to lay it out as a handy printable PDF.

Hi there everyone. I am a fairly new player and play space marines vs my mates necrons.

We had come to the result that after a Sweeping advance he would get his WBB rolls but after reading this very interesting and heated debate i have changed my mind.

I admit that i dont have a necron codex on me right now but i see everyone is bringing up the statement in the codex that says when the necron reaches 0 wounds he gets a WBB roll and they have been saying that a sweeping advance brings that down to zero wounds so they should be able to roll WBB. The sentence in the rulebook that interests me says: " We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensivly scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either Dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. 2 of those 3 options would mean that the necrons have not lost their wounds and have either been captured or hiding for the rest of the game meaning they do not get their WBB rolls and have to be removed from the game.

Hell i say draw the line in the middle. They have given us 3 choices on what they do. call 2/3 of them either captured or hiding and 1/3 of them dead and give 1/3 of your squad WBB rolls LOL.

As i said i am a very new player and may have overlooked something and if you think i have feel free to correct me but that is just my 2 cents on a very confusing rule. I dont think we will have it in black and white until they update the necron codex properly.

unistoo wrote:

The Dragon wrote:You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls.

If we can get an agreement of course
Heck, if we get as far as an FAQ with pics etc. I'll put my hand up to lay it out as a handy printable PDF.

very groovy. *rubs hands together whilst cackling* it all comes together.

I think I'll start trying to consolidate our RAW based findings and rationalizations here pretty soon and maybe pass it through interested parties to make sure there's an absolute consensus on the rules and the specific wording of what we've found so that most everyone can understand what's being said. A lot of the earlier posts in the thread were right, but failed to really elaborate the details so the message was lost other than the end conclusion--which no one wanted to listen to until the picture was painted.