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No. GW rules queries are not binding and are often contradictory.

Alerian wrote:LOL...every rules clarification email from GW states that it is NOT an official ruling....

The actual RULEBOOK is very clear on this..you just seem to want to ignore what it says, in this case.

Also this

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

Who do you think answers the Rules Question emails? Jervis?

Lol

They are answered by Box Packers, with no more authority than you or me. I'd take Dakka's word over some random guy who can't get a real job any day.

Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

jspyd3rx wrote:Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

Yes I am 100% Serious.

jspyd3rx wrote:Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

Yes, he is serious, and yes, the rules guys are that rubbish. And no, whatever they say means precisely NOTHING to anyone - only FAQs mean something.

Simple way to deal: answer the following questions:

1) Is WBB a special rule? [to help: yes]
2) Does it specify that it works against Sweeping Advance? [No]
3) If a special rule does not specify it works against Sweeping Advance, does it work? [no]

Therefore, in conclusion, WBB is a special rule. It does not mention SA. IF you don't mention SA SA states you don't work. WBB doesn;'t work.

It is entirely irrelevant that WBB says to put models down, as SA states you cannot do so - you are attempting to save the unit when SA specifically states you cannot do so.

Really, it isn't anymore difficult than that. In 4th ed WBB was an EXAMPLE of a special rule that didn't work. In 5th ed they have removed the EXAMPLE, but not changed the rule. IF the rule is the same and it didnt work before, then it really, really doesnt work now....

The most likely reason they removed the example would be that they have major plans for WBB.

Aight my question for this resides as such;

Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB. They get trampled to the point they can't reassemble. However, whats the rules regarding res orbs? rez orbs allow units to get back up when they normally could not, I.E. double toughness or power weapons. So does that allow for WBB for SA? Thats always bugged me and the cron players here always take WBB for SA if the orbs around (cuz Necron Lords get back up from everything)

Secondly, I was told that Crons new Codex they are taking away We'll be back and replacing it with Feel No Pain and some other changes to crons (likely adding invuns and stuff to lords, higher toughness, etc.)

Nothing about the new Necron codex is even close to confirmed.

The Orb says nothing about sweeping advance, so it offer no protection.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Nothing about the new Necron codex is even close to confirmed.

The Orb says nothing about sweeping advance, so it offer no protection.

bad ass, that means I can rock crons even harder

Zid wrote:Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB.

This is false. While the two are similar in some ways, they are NOT the same. SA destroys a unit and forces it to be removed immediately. It also states that no special rule can save them from being removed immediately.

Power weapons do not cause these two effects.

I'm glad this got brought up, my buddy and I read the rules and it seemed obvious that when an entire unit is destroyed, it's destroyed. Mainly because WWB doesn't occur until the next turn. That was our logic.

Dracos wrote:

Zid wrote:Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB.

This is false. While the two are similar in some ways, they are NOT the same. SA destroys a unit and forces it to be removed immediately. It also states that no special rule can save them from being removed immediately.

Power weapons do not cause these two effects.

I'll chime in here as well. SA destroys the Necron unit, same as a number of other armies. It doesn't matter how you try to frame it, look at BRB page 40 under sweeping advance and Necron codex page 13 under WBB. Bottom line, SA will destroy the entire Necron unit, even if models are down awaiting WBB and even if it includes a lord! That is why Necron armies avoid assault (if they're smart!) and why other armies try to get into assault against them.
@jspyd3rx-You just have to understand that this (vulnerable to SA) is a weakness in most armies. It doesn't mean they are always defeatable, it means you have to adjust your tactics to maximize the strengths of your army, and minimize it's weaknesses. The Necrons have a number of strengths that give them an incredible edge over many armies. Find them and use them. But understand that SA will destroy any unit. WBB is very powerful but it cannot override SA. This boils down to strategy, tactics and rules. Don't expect the rules to overcome a general's weakness in tactics or strategy, learn to use the rules to help them both. Hope I am not sounding too long winded here, I play SM and my friend plays Necrons. We are about even in W/L, because it comes down to strategy, tactics and some luck. Just like a real battle.
Time Wizard

Being new to posting don't shoot me down if i'm wrong,

1 Gwars post regarding box packers who cant get a real job is to say, a little nasty, I'm sure you meant it in away that they are only trying to answer the question as best they can "but it's not official". A jobs a job. respect them for what they do, is a street cleaner,dish washer or swim suit model a "real job" i'm sure they take alot less skill then your job, But One of them probably pays alot more.


2 I've build a necron/trynid army and play necrons "on occasion" , I was very interested in the out come of the post as I'm playing necrons in a tournament in a months time.
I agree with what you have said regarding this post "they don't get WWB's "of course i'd love it if they did"

Thanks

Oh jesus christ................. 'sighs'

Guys WBB CAN work in this instance because there is no conflict with Sweeping Advance.

You guys are gonna go WTF on me, but hear me out...

First, lets look at what's really happening here with the unit being wiped out and then WBB activating.

The Unit is, of course, wiped out.

As in dead.

Gone.

Caput.

Sweeping Advance pg. 40 "the destroyed UNIT is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"

Sweeping Advance smiles because nothing saved the unit- no armor saves, invulnerable, feel no pain, etc.- and all goes well. There's nothing in base anymore. The assault is ended. A victory point is possibly collected for kicking some can (annihilation anyone?) and someone happily consolidates elsewhere.

However, WBB can ( as in a possibility --not: Hey I'm Jesus and this is MY word) activate here under a few different auspices

(1) Because WBB doesn't deal with a UNIT swept... it deals with MODELS, therefore WBB tosses the models downed on their side.

(2) WBB is not counted as a save or special rule of any sort that would rescue the unit and therefore ignores any rule saying 'na na na you can't have any save'. This is supported by the fact that the models and unit involved ACTUALLY died and would otherwise be removed were it not for WBB. They give off kill points, they're guaranteed to not rejoin the unit they came from in the first place in this instance since it’s gone, etc…

The unit was definitely nuked, the point for it was even awarded, and IT is not coming back.

The MODELS however remain and travel elsewhere to join other separate units. This isn't quibbling it's reading the exact rules from both books.

Necron P. 13
"Any Necron MODEL that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be REMOVED as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged"


If you guys actually want to look at this and insist that the specific extra mention of the words 'as a casualty' means WBB doesn't count towards anything other than .. hell.. I don't know casualties from regular shooting and assault... then that's just how you guys are going to be. I can't change your minds.

However, I'd just like to ask where else in the entire regular rulebook you can look up the words 'remove them as a casualty' so we can ALL know exactly when something is being removed 'as a casualty' versus being 'removed'

*insert [ shaming/smug look over the top of his glasses]*

While you're at it maybe you can explain to me why they even BOTHERED mentioning a model 'being otherwise removed as a casualty' if in fact, the only way for a model to be 'removed as a casualty' in the first place is for it to be reduced to 0 wounds.

That’s like saying: “ BTW do WBB when a model is reduced to 0 wounds and oh yeah… when it’s reduced to 0 wounds. Glad we got that covered. La la la”

Does No One notice this?

As for the other 'thought experiment' brought up before-- Death Or Glory, let's explore that in this context.

Death or Glory--failure p. 69
"the model is removed regardless of wounds, saves, or any other clever way of staying alive they can think of"

Really, once again this brings us back to the issues of (1) Is WBB a save or not per the model and (2) Will this count towards WBB’s “otherwise removed as a casualty”

If you’re going to be ridiculous in the above you sure as hell are going to be silly here.

Just remember if you’re saying no to WBB because “it’s not being remove as a casualty”

You ABSOLUTELY are saying that….

“WBB triggers when you’re reduced to 0 wounds and also when you’re reduced to 0 wounds”

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of this debate, and the confusing notions involved, this is why I said it CAN WBB not necessarily DOES. I could be wrong.

After all this is GW (Valkyrie and deployment rules anyone?). If I am—be advised—the world is soon to end, lol.


Edited for Spelling... probably going to need more of it too

The Dragon wrote:(2) WBB is not counted as a save or special rule of any sort that would rescue the unit and therefore ignores any rule saying 'na na na you can't have any save'. This is supported by the fact that the models and unit involved ACTUALLY died and would otherwise be removed were it not for WBB. They give off kill points, they're guaranteed to not rejoin the unit they came from in the first place in this instance since it’s gone, etc…

WBB is a special rule.

Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
God, I hope that made sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

We'll Be Back is a special rule.

We'll Be Back tells you that instead of removing a model you place it on its side.

The SA rule tells you the unit must be removed immediately.

The SA rule tells you no special rules can save/rescue/prevent it from being removed immediately.

We'll Be Back does not have a statement exempting it from SA.

Therefore, We'll Be Back has no effect on a unit suffering a SA.

ehhh.. once again No.

(1) WBB is a special rule

(2) WBB does put a MODEL on its side once it's dead

(3) SA does say remove the unit-- which triggers WBB referring to individual models stating that whenever a MODEL would be removed as a casualty turn it on its side instead.

(4) WBB doesn't save the unit at all. Under WBB rules the UNIT is dead and gone, never to return. I'm failing to see where you're taking this.

(5) WBB specifically states whenever a model would be removed as a casualty INSTEAD it's turned on its side. SA removes the units the models are in, thus necessitating the removal of the models as casualties THUS triggering WBB. It's the same story again and again -- TELL ME WHY WBB 'Removal Clause' DOESN'T WORK WITH SA other than that 'you say so'-- Codex Trumps, Codex makes sense, your statement carries no logic.

(6) WBB doesn't do ANYTHING to a unit that's swept at all. It pertains to individual models that were in a unit that happened to BE sweeped. It does not prevent sweeping or the destruction of the unit in any way.

Therefore, WBB still works on models that were in a swept unit.

You have still failed to answer ANY of my questions.

BTW, the rules-- explicitly-- state only pg.40 "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

This is EXACTLY when the WBB "or otherwise removed as a casualty' clause is meant to come into play.

The Dragon wrote:
(1) WBB is a special rule

Got that one right.

(2) WBB does put a MODEL on its side once it's dead

When it would otherwise be removed as a casualty, but otherwise correct.

(3) SA does say remove the unit-- which triggers WBB referring to individual models stating that whenever a MODEL would be removed as a casualty turn it on its side instead.

While it is true that that WBB special rule wants to trigger, it is unable to. The unit must be removed immediately. If you use WBB to lay the models on their side, you are not satisfying the requirement of SA to remove the unit. SA tells you to ignore special rules trying to stop the unit (and therefore, the models in the unit) from being removed unless the special rule tell you to ignore SA.

(4) WBB doesn't save the unit at all. Under WBB rules the UNIT is dead and gone, never to return. I'm failing to see where you're taking this.

WBB attempts to prevent (and thus save) the models in the unit from being removed. Arguing that you are only saving parts of the unit is irrelevent, as the whole unit must be removed. Removing parts of the unit does not satisfy SA.

(5) WBB specifically states whenever a model would be removed as a casualty INSTEAD it's turned on its side. SA removes the units the models are in, thus necessitating the removal of the models as casualties THUS triggering WBB. It's the same story again and again -- TELL ME WHY WBB 'Removal Clause' DOESN'T WORK WITH SA other than that 'you say so'-- Codex Trumps, Codex makes sense, your statement carries no logic.

Well the wording in the BGB only says destroyed and removed immediately, not as a casualty. FYI saying codex trumps rulebooks is a gross oversimplification. Its more like : Follow all rules at all times. If you are forced to take two contradictory courses of action, follow the more specific rule.

(6) WBB doesn't do ANYTHING to a unit that's swept at all. It pertains to individual models that were in a unit that happened to BE sweeped. It does not prevent sweeping or the destruction of the unit in any way.

Affecting parts of a unit does in fact mean you are affecting the unit. You are right, it does not prevent the sweeping or destruction of the unit in any way. It would need to specify differently in order to stop SA.

Draco...

you still never answered the BIG question which would pin this or not. Why does WBB not activate for SA.

Your entire point relies on this:
"Well the wording in the BGB only says destroyed and removed immediately, not as a casualty"

I asked you, separately from the issues of SA, what the feth does the WBB mention of 'when otherwise removed as a casualty' mean AT ALL if not in the context of when models would be removed directly as opposed from taking wounds.

THIS IS that situation.

WBB work in 2 ways.

When a model would be reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty.

You still haven't pointed out any option from any other weapons from any other race at all you and your ilk would ACTUALLY give Necron players their WBB on.

It has to mean something so what is? I think it's pretty fething obvious it means flat out when a model would be 'removed' from anything other than being reduced to 0 wounds.

Throw me a bone here. You're giving me nothing.

You are completely missing the point here.

WBB is a special rule. Special rules can't stop models from being removed from SA unless that special rule specifically states that it can.

Changing the part of SA where you are supposed to remove the models (as casualties or not is really irrelevant) and instead lay them on their side is where you are going wrong.

WBB can't prevent SA from removing the unit - and therefore the models in the unit, because it does not say specifically that it can.

Okay this getting ridiculous.

That's like saying ...

There's a unit that has a special charge bonus that in its rules specifically states it never loses the bonus-- no matter what.

And then it charges another unit that says who ever charges it loses all bonuses, unless otherwise specified

You're saying the unit with the special rule loses its bonus because it did not specifically- in NAME- mention the unit that makes people lose their charging bonus.

You're simply choosing one side over the other to your preference.

Plus.. Draco. .you STILL haven't given me (1) one, (uno) example of a single instance of "or otherwise removed as a casualty" for WBB to work.

I'm still waiting on that...

Moving on...

You say this "WBB is a special rule. Special rules can't stop models from being removed from SA unless that special rule specifically states that it can." -- but that isn't true. It does not say it has to Explicitly mention SA at all. It says this

'The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage'

That means the special rule has to specify that it prevents things from being removed from the table--which WBB does.

Again, the only 'defense' for WBB not working against SA is if "otherwise removed as a casualty" does not refer to it. No one can decide THAT since not one fething person has taken the time to explain what the hell that even means.

The question stands

Wasn't the necron codex written for 3rd edition? Looking in the current BGB maybe that's why you can't find what the Necron rule is referencing with that?

Regardless, your argument is completely irrelevant. No special rule can rescue the unit. WBB is a special rule. Read further. For them the battle is over, they can take no further part.

WBB, a special rule, can't stop SA because it does not say it can. It is a special rule that gets stopped because SA says it stops special rules. It's actually pretty clear cut here.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Models that are swept are not removed as casualties, they are destroyed. Removing casualties is defined situation on page 24, and it only happens when specified, such as shooting and assaulting.

You can not say that WBB activates because WBB is triggered only by removing final wounds and removing as a casualty. SA specifies neither.

Would you say that Necrons can get up after being subject to Death or Glory? Any model that does there is also destroyed and no special rule can save them there, either.

Thank you god Master Slowpoke for a lead...give me a minute to skip on over to pg. 24

*reading*


p. 24 "Note that any model in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or range of all the firers"
...
"Casualties are not necessarily dead--they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In an case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

... that's all it says. Masterslowpoke ... this didn't really define .. at all what a casualty is. In fact the only thing this described at all was the concept behind units taking wounds even when only 1 person is visible to enemy fire.

there is no discernible difference in RAW whatsoever between saying something is a casualty or destroyed.

"Models that are swept are not removed as casualties, they are destroyed. Removing casualties is defined situation on page 24, and it only happens when specified, such as shooting and assaulting."

uh, it doesn't say that all. While it does say they're 'destroyed' --that's a general term meaning dead, not a specific different type of dead from any other sort.

While I agree the removing of casualties is 'described' here this is not the sole and only definition for when it occurs. Afterall, if that's the case- then casualties are never taken in assault phase AT ALL.. afterall all they're not described here in any way and thus I guess they never occur. Only 'casualties' from being shot at are here. Does that mean that any and all wounds taking models down in assault means they are 'destroyed' here then instead?

No.. of course it doesn't. BTW... how can everybody assume nothing will ever save in any degree or fashion a unit from being swept when in fact the SA rules leave an opening for them?

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

This means that if a rule DOES specify it can save them or something in that stage it can.

BTW did you realize how crazy this statement sounds if you take it to its logical conclusion "WBB is triggered only by removing final wounds and removing as a casualty"

Yeah... you're basically saying the exact same thing I commented on earlier! You're saying WBB works when your wounds are reduced to 0 by shooting/ assault and ALSO when your wounds are reduced to ) by shooting/Assault.

If you insist on the rules as you suggested them... then then WBB is simply repeating itself.

"or otherwise removed as a casualty" does not mean from simple assault/shooting. That's covered under being reduced to 0 wounds.

It has to mean something effective so what is it? Does it mean it puts the ixnay on the Eldar gun which just removes something from play? How about the Ork or Chaos options which remove models from play and puts something else in instead.

It has to do something effective- so what is it?







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Anyways I've gotta bug out. When I check this again... aside from the WBB dealing with SA can someone please figure what the hell the "otherwise removed as a casualty" means.

A plausible one would be great.

I figure worst case we can blame Canada.
Sorry Maples you're just too convenient and we know you don't fight back.


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whoops just noticed Draco is from ...er.. yeah.. well gotta go, bye

There can be situations when you explicitly remove casualties other than shooting or assaulting, and that is why that extra line is in the WBB roll. It's just that I can't think of any at the moment. I'm sure there are some psychic powers and such that do it.

While I agree the removing of casualties is 'described' here this is not the sole and only definition for when it occurs. Afterall, if that's the case- then casualties are never taken in assault phase AT ALL.. afterall all they're not described here in any way and thus I guess they never occur. Only 'casualties' from being shot at are here. Does that mean that any and all wounds taking models down in assault means they are 'destroyed' here then instead?

One of the steps in combat resolution is to remove casualties, which refers back to page 24.

Again, models are only removed as casualties when it says to remove as casualties.

The Dragon wrote:...
"Casualties are not necessarily dead--they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In an case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

... that's all it says. Masterslowpoke ...

I think you deliberately left a bit out about sweeping advance that you didn't want others to see:

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

Now would you agree WBB is a special rule. Check
When a sweeping advance is made, does WBB specifically state it may be taken in the case of a sweeping advance. NO

That's where this whole argument falls apart. ONLY when a special rules states it overrides sweeping advances does it actually work. If not then they are destroyed.

Case closed.

The Dragon wrote: WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

Ahaa... so then any Necron unit that teleports through the Monolith for a second chance at WBB don't actually let the downed models test again? They're just models, not the unit.

Oops, I misread one of your posts Dragon...Will amend my argument now.

The whole "specifying" argument basically means a special rule has to specifically state that it can save a unit from a sweeping advance. WBB doesn't say anything about sweeping advances, so therefore doesn't trigger.

If we followed your wording armour saves, invulnerable saves and feel no pain saves could be taken since they prevent casualty removal. Do you allow them to be taken when a unit is swept? Thought not. So like I said, A special rule or save has to explicitly express that it activates against sweeping advances for it to take effect.

Dracos: Right
The Dragon: Wrong.