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I wonder if anyone even has the codex or plays necrons. Just for the record, the BRB states that whenever a model is brought down to zero wounds or dispatched in any creative or humorous way it is removed from the game; just like SA states. With that in mind, necrons shouldn't even be allowed to WBB. SA staes that a DESTROYED unit is removed from the game; just like any other instance of death and destruction. For necrons the unit is always counted as gone when killed, they don't exist anymore. WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

Which is a roundabout way of saving themselves from Sweeping Advance. It doesn't matter that it is directly done, the fact it is done at all means it counts as a special rule that would save them from Sweeping Advance. Because WBB doesn't mention Sweeping Advance, it cannot help them.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

Which is a roundabout way of saving themselves from Sweeping Advance. It doesn't matter that it is directly done, the fact it is done at all means it counts as a special rule that would save them from Sweeping Advance. Because WBB doesn't mention Sweeping Advance, it cannot help them.

They are NOT saved. Just like any other instance. When they should be removed (like every other model whenever they are destroyed for any reason) from the game because they are a casualty, they are the only ones laid on their side. The opponent has successfully removed the model from the game. WBB does not save or prevent a model in any way, shape or form being dispatched through any mischievous way. It merely allows the model a chance of coming back into the game. The BRB states very clearly that any model reduced to 0 wounds or removed as a casualty for any reason must be removed from the game(the model as well). This does apply to necrons as well. Yet the model is instead left as a marker on the game board to see if it has a chance at a WBB roll. This is the "unless otherwise specified". The model is not removed, but it is destroyed.

Yes, and you did read the Sweeping Advance Rule that says "For them the Battle is over". Therefore, no putting on its side, no leaving a marker, it's just removed. End of.

In short, your entire argument is "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs".

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

WBB takes place at the start of every necron turn, not at the end of the turn.
Phase out is checked after making all WBB rolls.
And I agree that WBB cannot save the unit from a SA. In that case the necron unit is destroyed.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, and you did read the Sweeping Advance Rule that says "For them the Battle is over". Therefore, no putting on its side, no leaving a marker, it's just removed. End of.

In short, your entire argument is "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs".

You my dear friend (which I am growing to love to hate), are missing the point that when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them. WBB comes into affect after that. You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.
Your "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs" that you keep bringing up is exactly what you are doing. Also, that other poster was right about disrespecting the person's job it is to answer rules question. It would be the same argument at a tourney and should be respected. If they say I am wrong; then so be it and will concede. All of us here are just forum posters and they get paid to interpret what we may fail to understand. We should respect all, just as we should be respected as well.

What part of removing the whole unit is too difficult? Whole unit = all models, be they standing up or not.

Person who's name is total Gibberish:
Yes, it comes into effect after, and will save the models, which Sweeping Advance Explicitly forbids.

How is this hard to understand?

Gwar:

For the record, the guy(s) who do the rules interpetations are not "lowly" box packers. While at one time some of them may have worked in a different part of the company, even then, it does not mean they do not have an excellent grasp of the rules. I'm sorry if you think working hard in a shipping position is beneath you. Perhaps you would like to tell us here what you do for a living?

In the past, you would get different interpetations of rules, for many reasons. Something that happened one time is that someone called up and ask if a guardsmen with a plasmagun gets an overheat and fails its save, does it die instantly? The answer was yes, though it would get FNP etc. The questioner then went and posted online that the GW rulesboyz are dumb because they said you get Instant Death from overheating plasma.

Other times people would phrase their question to get the answer they wanted....Can a model off the table affect a unit on the table? No unless they have a rule that specifically says they can. The questioner then goes back and says the GW guys say you can't tank shock from reserves.

And yes, sometimes a question was answered incorrectly for various reasons. These games are complex, and no one can know where every rule or special rule is located. Sometimes a small, obscure rule is changed, and no one notices it for a long time. For example, I just found out a unit can assault the unit in a vehicle it just destroyed....and that dreadnought close combat weapons only do 1d6 armor penetration.

For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

WBB takes place at the start of every necron turn, not at the end of the turn.
Phase out is checked after making all WBB rolls.
And I agree that WBB cannot save the unit from a SA. In that case the necron unit is destroyed.

Opps, you are right about all of it. lol. Need to remember to check books before posting. Now, what happens to any model that is destroyed? It is removed from the game. Are necrons removed when they are destroyed? No, they are not and are instead laid on their side. Does SA destroy the remainder of the unit? Yes it does. Is the unit removed from the game and counted as destroyed? Yep. Does the BRB state that a model must be removed when destroyed? Yep. SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes. Does the necron codex say that if a model is removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side to see if it qualifies for its' WBB roll? Yep; page 13 first paragraph.

jspyd3rx wrote: when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them.

The battle is not over for them yet, they are laid on their sides to show they are damaged.

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into affect after that.

After they are damaged, yes. After they are removed, no.

jspyd3rx wrote:You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.

WBB is neither plain nor simple, hence these rules discussions.
In the case of SA you must remember the term 'unit'. Necrons that are down are still part of their unit.
Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.
Necron FAQ, if a necron unit has models capable of self repair and the unit must make a fall back move, the damaged necrons are moved with the unit. Again, they are still part of the unit.
If a unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. The entire unit. All the necrons who are unwounded, along with any models who were down awaiting WBB.
If you try to say that downed (damaged) necrons are not part of the unit, then necrons would never have to take any morale checks because the downed necrons would not count as members of the unit, and therefore the 'unit' would never be able to suffer any wounds, and that's not the way it works.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Gwar:

For the record, the guy(s) who do the rules interpetations are not "lowly" box packers. While at one time some of them may have worked in a different part of the company, even then, it does not mean they do not have an excellent grasp of the rules. I'm sorry if you think working hard in a shipping position is beneath you. Perhaps you would like to tell us here what you do for a living?

In the past, you would get different interpetations of rules, for many reasons. Something that happened one time is that someone called up and ask if a guardsmen with a plasmagun gets an overheat and fails its save, does it die instantly? The answer was yes, though it would get FNP etc. The questioner then went and posted online that the GW rulesboyz are dumb because they said you get Instant Death from overheating plasma.

Other times people would phrase their question to get the answer they wanted....Can a model off the table affect a unit on the table? No unless they have a rule that specifically says they can. The questioner then goes back and says the GW guys say you can't tank shock from reserves.

And yes, sometimes a question was answered incorrectly for various reasons. These games are complex, and no one can know where every rule or special rule is located. Sometimes a small, obscure rule is changed, and no one notices it for a long time. For example, I just found out a unit can assault the unit in a vehicle it just destroyed....and that dreadnought close combat weapons only do 1d6 armor penetration.

For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

Wow, put very well. I know I wouldn't be wanted to be disrespected for providing for my family. Regardless of whatever job it was.

jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

KeithGatchalian wrote:For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

I have 11+ Years of Playing games weekly oh snap!

Hey, what's with all the personal attacks now? Is this some sort of subtle diversion from the fact you are incorrect?

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote: when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them.

The battle is not over for them yet, they are laid on their sides to show they are damaged.

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into affect after that.

After they are damaged, yes. After they are removed, no.

jspyd3rx wrote:You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.

WBB is neither plain nor simple, hence these rules discussions.
In the case of SA you must remember the term 'unit'. Necrons that are down are still part of their unit.
Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.
Necron FAQ, if a necron unit has models capable of self repair and the unit must make a fall back move, the damaged necrons are moved with the unit. Again, they are still part of the unit.
If a unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. The entire unit. All the necrons who are unwounded, along with any models who were down awaiting WBB.
If you try to say that downed (damaged) necrons are not part of the unit, then necrons would never have to take any morale checks because the downed necrons would not count as members of the unit, and therefore the 'unit' would never be able to suffer any wounds, and that's not the way it works.

They are part of the unit for purposes of falling back. The codex also states that "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only".
So if they can ignore rules for unit coherency, then why do they fall back with the unit? Weird.


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Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

KeithGatchalian wrote:For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

I have 11+ Years of Playing games weekly oh snap!

Hey, what's with all the personal attacks now? Is this some sort of subtle diversion from the fact you are incorrect?

No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.


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jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

The Dragon wrote:Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


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God, I hope that made sense.


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oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll? How would this interact with that? Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

jspyd3rx wrote: They are part of the unit for purposes of falling back. The codex also states that "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only".
So if they can ignore rules for unit coherency, then why do they fall back with the unit? Weird.

Again, a poorly worded codex entry.
Do downed necrons count towards 25% loses for morale checks? Yes they do.
Do downed necrons wounds count towards combat resluts? Absolutely.
So in at least these instances, the nocrons are not ignored, they are part of a unit, count as being with the unit, and since they must fall back with the unit, they are a part of it. If the unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. Not wounded or damaged, they are destroyed.
If, on the other hand, the necron unit is reduced to no members in the shooting phase, they may be able to WBB if there is another unit within the allowed distance. If they pass WBB, they join that unit. Only at that point have they left their original unit and joined a new one.
You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.
And no matter how you slice it, when a unit is destroyed in SA, the entire unit is destroyed, unless in their codex or the BRB the is a line that says, "The unit is not destroyed by SA but rather..." And that is not the case for WBB.

jspyd3rx wrote:Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

No, not necessarily. For it to be counted as a casualty, it has to specifically state it is a casualty.


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jspyd3rx wrote:No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.

You do know their job is NOT to answer rules questions? It's to pack boxes, and they answer Questions in their spare time.

imweasel wrote:

The Dragon wrote:Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


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God, I hope that made sense.


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oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll? How would this interact with that? Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

Is SA a close combat weapon that doesn't allow armor save? It doesn't allow armor save, but it isn't a close combat weapon. It is a maneuver. Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model. They just get a chance of coming back into the game. Hence the term WBB. The model is merely a marker on the map for purposes of coming back.

What on Earth are you taking about? They do NOT get a chance to come back, because SA says they do not.

jspyd3rx wrote:Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model.

Please quote that rule.

time wizard wrote:You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.

Such as the Monolith, perhaps? Teleporting a "unit" through it to get a second chance at WBB would be quite pointless if the downed Necrons aren't part of the unit.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

No, not necessarily. For it to be counted as a casualty, it has to specifically state it is a casualty.


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jspyd3rx wrote:No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.

You do know their job is NOT to answer rules questions? It's to pack boxes, and they answer Questions in their spare time.

Sorry, but that just seems wrong. I can't tell if you are being serious or insulting by saying that. But, I guess we will find out when they answer.

jspyd3rx wrote:Sorry, but that just seems wrong. I can't tell if you are being serious or insulting by saying that. But, I guess we will find out when they answer.

"Just seems wrong?" I am not being insulting, I am being Honest. Of course it seems people here tend to mistake being honest with being rude. -Shrug-

I notice you refuse to answer Dracos's Question.

imweasel wrote: How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Not any model. A unit may teleport through the monolith, not individual models.

imweasel wrote:Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll?

Only in certain instances.

imweasel wrote:How would this interact with that?

You need to re-read pages 13, 15 and 21 of codex necrons. That covers WBB, res orb, and teleporting through monoliths.

imweasel wrote:Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

No, sweeping advance is not a cc attack, it follows a failed morale test, that occurs after all attacks have been made and resolved.


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Spetulhu wrote:

time wizard wrote:You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.

Such as the Monolith, perhaps? Teleporting a "unit" through it to get a second chance at WBB would be quite pointless if the downed Necrons aren't part of the unit.

Absolutely, I brought that point up in an earlier reply.

time wizard wrote: Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.

Dracos wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model.

Please quote that rule.

Page 24 under remove casualties. Also states in last paragraph " Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In any way, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle". One of the criteria for WBB roll is if the model or unit counts a casualty (page 13, first sentence necron codex). SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

Dracos wrote:I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

I too would like to see this rule.


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jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

No, Destroyed and "Casualty" are two very different words.

Gwar! wrote:

Dracos wrote:I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

I too would like to see this rule.


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jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

No, Destroyed and "Casualty" are two very different words.

de·stroy (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v.tr.
1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
3. To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.
v.intr.
To be destructive; cause destruction: "Too much money destroys as surely as too little" (John Simon)

ca·su·al·ty (kzh-l-t)
n. pl. ca·su·al·ties
1. An accident, especially one involving serious injury or loss of life.
2. One injured or killed in an accident: a train wreck with many casualties.
3. One injured, killed, captured, or missing in action through engagement with an enemy. Often used in the plural: Battlefield casualties were high.
4. One that is harmed or eliminated as a result of an action or a circumstance: The corner grocery was a casualty of the expanding supermarkets.

Our shared English definition of both words. A destroyed unit or model is counted as a casualty, according to our language.