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For what it is worth, in the study of human evolution, our intelligence is attributed to just such similar circumstances - being cut off from the rest of the world (southern Africa), caused to suffer great climactic hardship over a VERY short period of geological time, and then finally, becoming who we are through rapid evolution.

Sounds like science fiction when GW says it for the Tau, but actually not far off from mainstream science.

Solorg wrote:For what it is worth, in the study of human evolution, our intelligence is attributed to just such similar circumstances - being cut off from the rest of the world (southern Africa), caused to suffer great climactic hardship over a VERY short period of geological time, and then finally, becoming who we are through rapid evolution.

Sounds like science fiction when GW says it for the Tau, but actually not far off from mainstream science.

NOOOOO!!!

NOT NEARLY GRIMDARK ENOUGH!!!!!

Tau, Space commies with a Space Pope.

Could it be Eldar through... the Cabal...?

So if they aren't communists under the rule of these wonderful ethereal then what are they? Democratic members of a society following "The greater good" and nothing else? Farsight, was he not considered a rebel cause he didn't believe in the Tau's tight political structure?

InventionThirteen wrote:So if they aren't communists under the rule of these wonderful ethereal then what are they? Democratic members of a society following "The greater good" and nothing else? Farsight, was he not considered a rebel cause he didn't believe in the Tau's tight political structure?

Doombringer on Tau online summed it up pretty fething well.

The Tau Empire
Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society
ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies presiding over Meritocratic Councils

There are some very specific things which make them blatantly non-communist if you talk about TRUE communism. Just google "tau not communist."

Furthermore, your comment "under the rule of," supports the concept that Tau are not communist.

I've been musing over the Tau since I had a look at the Xenos book and a few things stand out.

The Tau are a "Soul Dead" race, but the Eldar and supersensitive to the warp.
The eldar nabbed the bug in the Xenos book, the same diamond shape 'gland' appears on the ethereal(sp) forehead and seems to control the race.

If the eldar could "toughen" up the Tau by exposing them to the 'nids and the Necrons, could they not point them to the Crone Worlds to retake them or something on them since they would be Immune to the Prince of Pleasure's tempting?

Of course then I look at the map and see that they are way far away from the Crone Worlds.

perhaps the T'au are Socialists rather then Communists.

"Communist" Russia was actually a Socialist country.

to get to true communism Marx said a country had to become socialist and then become communist through a gradual change.

T'au seem to be in the "transitionary" stage and don't plan on changing.

T'au citizens are also more important then human, kroot, and vespid citizens in society making it an unequal and tyrannic society.

Grey Templar wrote:perhaps the T'au are Socialists rather then Communists.

"Communist" Russia was actually a Socialist country.

to get to true communism Marx said a country had to become socialist and then become communist through a gradual change.

T'au seem to be in the "transitionary" stage and don't plan on changing.

T'au citizens are also more important then human, kroot, and vespid citizens in society making it an unequal and tyrannic society.

If you mean socialist in the economic sense, we don't really know enough about their economic system to label them anything really.

In the political sense, they're not really socialist either because they're in NO way shape or form democratic. We can't really label them under one specific thing, but rather a conglomeration of terms. Yes, they may have some aspects similar to socialism, but that little problem of not being democratic kinda throws that out the window.

Sacred Chao wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:perhaps the T'au are Socialists rather then Communists.

"Communist" Russia was actually a Socialist country.

to get to true communism Marx said a country had to become socialist and then become communist through a gradual change.

T'au seem to be in the "transitionary" stage and don't plan on changing.

T'au citizens are also more important then human, kroot, and vespid citizens in society making it an unequal and tyrannic society.

If you mean socialist in the economic sense, we don't really know enough about their economic system to label them anything really.

In the political sense, they're not really socialist either because they're in NO way shape or form democratic. We can't really label them under one specific thing, but rather a conglomeration of terms. Yes, they may have some aspects similar to socialism, but that little problem of not being democratic kinda throws that out the window.

Socialism and communism are contrary to democracy.
SO how should the "follow a caste of leaders, IE ethereals" thing and their all out propaganda addiction "geater good" not
translate to the totalitarian regimes we know of?

T'au have a lot in common with political parties in eastern europe ( when they were still warsaw pact states ).

1hadhq wrote:


Socialism and communism are contrary to democracy.
SO how should the "follow a caste of leaders, IE ethereals" thing and their all out propaganda addiction "geater good" not
translate to the totalitarian regimes we know of?

T'au have a lot in common with political parties in eastern europe ( when they were still warsaw pact states ).

Socialism contrary to democracy? ...? ??? Europe?

I'm not saying they don't have things in common with various human governments and societies throughout history. But giving the single label of, communist/socialist/totalitarian doesn't quite do it justice.

I'll just leave this here...

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,70577.html

The Tau are a textbook example of oligarchy. A form of government where power rests with an elite few (ethereals) who rule based on royalty, wealth, family ties, military might, or religious hegemony (or pheromone glands in their heads).

Usually tyrannical and completely reliant on the servitude of the people to function (there's that Greater Good popping up again).

FeistierErmine wrote:The Tau are a textbook example of oligarchy. A form of government where power rests with an elite few (ethereals) who rule based on royalty, wealth, family ties, military might, or religious hegemony (or pheromone glands in their heads).

Usually tyrannical and completely reliant on the servitude of the people to function (there's that Greater Good popping up again).

The Tau Empire
Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society
ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies presiding over Meritocratic Councils

I second that.

Has there been any sort of information whatsoever released that provides any insight as to the economic structure of the Tau Empire?

Sacred Chao wrote:

1hadhq wrote:


Socialism and communism are contrary to democracy.
SO how should the "follow a caste of leaders, IE ethereals" thing and their all out propaganda addiction "geater good" not
translate to the totalitarian regimes we know of?

T'au have a lot in common with political parties in eastern europe ( when they were still warsaw pact states ).

Socialism contrary to democracy? ...? ??? Europe?

I'm not saying they don't have things in common with various human governments and societies throughout history. But giving the single label of, communist/socialist/totalitarian doesn't quite do it justice.

I'll just leave this here...

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,70577.html

Wiki's don't counter anything, sorry. The perception of communism and socialism may differ, but it still springs to mind.
So, why not consider for once that the main reason for the T'au fanbase to defend themselves with plenty of wall'o'text
could hint that parts of this world see the T'au and get the first impression of: communism=tau and when this happens,
all the finely worded " T'au = / = communist " arguments fall flat on their nose cause the lengthy threads of "communist-Tau"
lighten the day of too many to be missed.

Maybe the argument of T'au = xenos = / = human concepts like communism should lead to a better example:

T'au = Ants.

How about that?

But FeistierErmine's oligarchy idea isnt bad either.

1hadhq wrote:
Wiki's don't counter anything, sorry. The perception of communism and socialism may differ, but it still springs to mind.
So, why not consider for once that the main reason for the T'au fanbase to defend themselves with plenty of wall'o'text
could hint that parts of this world see the T'au and get the first impression of: communism=tau and when this happens,
all the finely worded " T'au = / = communist " arguments fall flat on their nose cause the lengthy threads of "communist-Tau"
lighten the day of too many to be missed.

Maybe the argument of T'au = xenos = / = human concepts like communism should lead to a better example:

T'au = Ants.

How about that?

Did you even read it? Or are you trolling? I think you're trolling.

I'm not saying they don't share certain concepts with a multitude of governmental concepts like communism, socialism, totalitarianism, etc. but to simple say Tau = Communism doesn't quite fit.

I'm not saying that communism doesn't spring to mind when I think about it. It sure does, but when you dwell on it FURTHER, just simply saying communist doesn't quite fit the bill.

I don't quite get what your saying after the colon.

Are you trying to say that all the lengthy and well thought out arguments that "communism" doesn't quite do the Tau justice loose out to the short threads in which trolls characteristically pull out the Tau hate?

Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

It is always a pain to read pseudo-political discussions in Tau threads. Among many no respect for official background and no insight in political concepts.

Kroothawk wrote:

Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

It is always a pain to read pseudo-political discussions in Tau threads. Among many no respect for official background and no insight in political concepts.

Wasn't that how they originally were? Then people started crying about the whole grim-dark business and they changed the Tau to make them more dark?

Sacred Chao wrote:
Did you even read it? Or are you trolling? I think you're trolling.

trolling?

I am generally stupid enough to follow links and read that quoted stuff.

Sacred Chao wrote:
I don't quite get what your saying after the colon.

Are you trying to say that all the lengthy and well thought out arguments that "communism" doesn't quite do the Tau justice loose out to the short threads in which trolls characteristically pull out the Tau hate?

T'au dont get trolled.
Accusations of trolling are rather the T'au fanboi's weaksauce defense and i did assume youre interested in arguments,
not "we iz no communists and who disagrees is trolling". Could be wrong.

Shouldn't type longwinded sentences, so sorry for such monstrosities:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, why not consider for once that the main reason for the T'au fanbase to defend themselves with plenty of wall'o'text
could hint that parts of this world see the T'au and get the first impression of: communism=tau and when this happens,
all the finely worded " T'au = / = communist " arguments fall flat on their nose cause the lengthy threads of "communist-Tau"
lighten the day of too many to be missed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will keep it short. Promise.

Should have typed:

One notice of T'au=communists is the perfect punishment for a notice of T'au=good guys.
Once brought up, it will stay.
The T'au may hate this as much as they're able to, but still the chances to get rid of it are nil.

So maybe get over it and don't jump in whenever T'au are called communist?

@Kroothawk: love that quote much?
If its not recycled in codices and other official publications and you need to post it again and again, maybe GW has changed their stance on T'au?

1hadhq wrote:

I am generally stupid enough to follow links and read that quoted stuff.

How is that stupid?

1hadhq wrote:
T'au dont get trolled.
Accusations of trolling are rather the T'au fanboi's weaksauce defense and i did assume youre interested in arguments,
not "we iz no communists and who disagrees is trolling". Could be wrong.

Shouldn't type longwinded sentences, so sorry for such monstrosities:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, why not consider for once that the main reason for the T'au fanbase to defend themselves with plenty of wall'o'text
could hint that parts of this world see the T'au and get the first impression of: communism=tau and when this happens,
all the finely worded " T'au = / = communist " arguments fall flat on their nose cause the lengthy threads of "communist-Tau"
lighten the day of too many to be missed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will keep it short. Promise.

Should have typed:

One notice of T'au=communists is the perfect punishment for a notice of T'au=good guys.
Once brought up, it will stay.
The T'au may hate this as much as they're able to, but still the chances to get rid of it are nil.

Are you trying to insult me? I feel you're being intentionally insulting....

Jumping in "like a fanboi" when someone cried the proverbial Tau=communist was not my intention. I don't even consider, or even CARE whether or not they're good guys or bad guys.

I posted the links, quotes, and summarizations of arguments I had heard because they were political in nature and had good merit behind their arguments; instead of taking complex political/social labels at face value. My intent was to further the discussion by inputting something that, based upon what I've seen in forum boards before, is more than the really crappy arguments about the governmental system of the Tau Empire. Hell, after I showed CrashUSAR the argument about the Tau being a conglomeration of various political concepts, even he agreed that just yelling Tau = Communist makes you look like a fool who doesn't understand or a troll.

I for one have never seen the discussion go past the simple, Tau = communist, followed by tau =/= communist bull. I attempted to facilitate a bit of a more in depth look.

I fail to see how i came off as a "fanboi."

I hope we're both misreading each other.

Sacred Chao wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

It is always a pain to read pseudo-political discussions in Tau threads. Among many no respect for official background and no insight in political concepts.

Wasn't that how they originally were? Then people started crying about the whole grim-dark business and they changed the Tau to make them more dark?

They certainly brought in the Emperor Ming of Mongo collars for the Ethereals. I don't think it was a success. Around the time of the 4e codex there was a lot of argument and most Tau players preferred the 'nice' Tau as a option to the numerous 'nasty' factions already available in the game.

Truth is, there has been so little Tau fluff published we know almost nothing about their society or their relations with the numerous other aliens who are allies or members of their polity. I mean both codexes between them only contain about half a dozen pages.

Perhaps the next codex will be bulked up.

Still, all fluff is essentially propaganda, legend and rumour; anyway people can read it that way and make up their own minds about what is really going on.

Personally I prefer 'nice' Tau. I think there is more than enough Grimdarkness in the game and it needs a bit of contrast. I also think it makes better logical sense. I don't see how a very minor faction like the Tau could subjugate swathes of aliens by force of arms, so they must be willing allies.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Personally I prefer 'nice' Tau. I think there is more than enough Grimdarkness in the game and it needs a bit of contrast. I also think it makes better logical sense. I don't see how a very minor faction like the Tau could subjugate swathes of aliens by force of arms, so they must be willing allies.

A world without antithesis' is a very boring world indeed.

Sacred Chao wrote:Has there been any sort of information whatsoever released that provides any insight as to the economic structure of the Tau Empire?

This is a good question. It's actually pretty tough to answer given current fluff. The Tau themselves seem to have started out in the pre-Ethereal days working on a barter (perhaps capitalistic) system. Once the Ethereals showed up the whole "Greater Good" concept would almost point towards socialist or even post-economic system. That's complicated though by the fact that the Tau are active traders with other races. So perhaps they're trading on a barter system again which seems unlikely to me just because the empire seems quite self-sufficient. I doubt they would need the technology which any other race could offer, and such an ordered society seems like it would be able to provide necessities such as food and clothing.

So here's my theory. I believe that the Tau Empire has no internal economy. The way I see it, the Tau themselves work (whether through a sense of duty or the influence of the Ethereals) to serve the greater good. The partner races of the empire would likely operate as protectorates and be allowed to function internally however they had before being brought into the empire, and would provide goods and services to the Tau in exchange for the security benefits offered by being members of the empire. As far as trade outside the empire goes I would not put it past the Tau to give other races their technology and take whatever was offered (whether the Tau actually need it or not) simply to advance their own influence within the society they are trading with and get them used to the idea of dependence upon the empire. That way they can slowly make their trade partners dependent on the empire and make eventual colonization and joining of the Greater Good much smoother.

Sacred Chao wrote:

Did you even read it? Or are you trolling? I think you're trolling.

I'm not saying they don't share certain concepts with a multitude of governmental concepts like communism, socialism, totalitarianism, etc. but to simple say Tau = Communism doesn't quite fit.

I'm not saying that communism doesn't spring to mind when I think about it. It sure does, but when you dwell on it FURTHER, just simply saying communist doesn't quite fit the bill.

I don't quite get what your saying after the colon.

Are you trying to say that all the lengthy and well thought out arguments that "communism" doesn't quite do the Tau justice loose out to the short threads in which trolls characteristically pull out the Tau hate?

Actually, I would say (from what I know of the Tau and Communism) that the Tau are very much communist, or at least fit easily into the communist paradigm. Specifically, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat seems to fit the Tau government very closely.

That is to say; the Tau government seems to be a socialist state, directed by a small group of absolute rulers with (theoretically) massive popular support. This is the style of government that the Bolshevik Party put into practice in Russia; in theory it is a democratic middle-stage between a capitalist, class-based society and a perfect communist society. In practice, so far all nations that have attempted such have been totalitarian hell-holes.

1hadhq wrote:@Kroothawk: love that quote much?
If its not recycled in codices and other official publications and you need to post it again and again, maybe GW has changed their stance on T'au?

Everytime, someone claims that Tau subjugate all other races, I think, it is fair to post the designer's answer: "No!"
Because, if I don't do that, people might start to believe these lies. Better to call a lier a lier.

FeistierErmine wrote:

Sacred Chao wrote:Has there been any sort of information whatsoever released that provides any insight as to the economic structure of the Tau Empire?

This is a good question. It's actually pretty tough to answer given current fluff. The Tau themselves seem to have started out in the pre-Ethereal days working on a barter (perhaps capitalistic) system. Once the Ethereals showed up the whole "Greater Good" concept would almost point towards socialist or even post-economic system. That's complicated though by the fact that the Tau are active traders with other races. So perhaps they're trading on a barter system again which seems unlikely to me just because the empire seems quite self-sufficient. I doubt they would need the technology which any other race could offer, and such an ordered society seems like it would be able to provide necessities such as food and clothing.

So here's my theory. I believe that the Tau Empire has no internal economy. The way I see it, the Tau themselves work (whether through a sense of duty or the influence of the Ethereals) to serve the greater good. The partner races of the empire would likely operate as protectorates and be allowed to function internally however they had before being brought into the empire, and would provide goods and services to the Tau in exchange for the security benefits offered by being members of the empire. As far as trade outside the empire goes I would not put it past the Tau to give other races their technology and take whatever was offered (whether the Tau actually need it or not) simply to advance their own influence within the society they are trading with and get them used to the idea of dependence upon the empire. That way they can slowly make their trade partners dependent on the empire and make eventual colonization and joining of the Greater Good much smoother.

I've always thought it would be raw resources, for most. Yes, they could gather it themselves, but that requires being there to do the gathering. Some planets may even have items or technology the t'au lack and would like, so genuine trade there. For the last option I'd suggest art or cultural items but as has already been stated t'au don't seem to have a society that gives such things great value, so not sure what could be traded. Mercenary work would be the final step before melding them in because it is basically what they do afterwards, but that doesn't help the middle stages. Might have to be the pseduo, onesided trade.

Those are good thoughts

it should be noted that there is a difference between "Political" and "economic" communism. China right now is a prime example. The "Peoples Republic (an oxymoron if ever there was one) of China" is Politically Communist, but on the Economic front they are definitly Captalistic. Really a big country sized corperation if you like. This is why they have survived as a communist nation while Russia did not.


The T'au Etherials have the advantage of TOTAL obedience from the majority of their subjects (whether by pheramones, psuedo religious belief, or charisma), I assume the Kroot, Vespid, Humans and whatever other races are in there arn't under the sway of the Etherials, but simply go along with the system because the vast majority are making it work.

I imagine once races besides T'au reach a larger percentage of the population the system might break down. at about 40% Kroot, human, vespid, and what have you and 60% T'au there could be rebellions.

If the Impierium ever decides to take the T'au out they could very easily. Caliddus(do i have the right name?) assasins could easily infiltrate and kill all the etherials and then they would all go the way of the Farsight enclaves

Kroot already disobey the laws of the t'au, they send mercenaries out quietly to other battlefields to gather new genetic material, because they know they have already obtained most of that from around Pech and don't want to stagnate. I'm guessing some t'au know about this and choose to turn a blind eye because the kroot serve loyally and don't impede any of the goals of the t'au.

Grey Templar wrote:The T'au Etherials have the advantage of TOTAL obedience from the majority of their subjects (whether by pheramones, psuedo religious belief, or charisma), I assume the Kroot, Vespid, Humans and whatever other races are in there arn't under the sway of the Etherials, but simply go along with the system because the vast majority are making it work.

I imagine once races besides T'au reach a larger percentage of the population the system might break down. at about 40% Kroot, human, vespid, and what have you and 60% T'au there could be rebellions.

Kroot, Vespids and humans are NOT part of Tau society and never will be. The Tau society is a subtle system held together by the caste system (see Mont'au times). Ethereals might be privileged, but the system works only under their moderation of the caste system. Equalling them with totalitarian rulers, misses the point completely, as they seldom interfere with politics, mostly giving guidelines only.

The background is quite clear, that the Tau Empire is made up of mostly independent planets and races under their own rulership, working together in trade, science and sometimes military operations to mutual benefit, the so called "Greater Good". Even if Tau were numerous enough to subjugate the Eastern fringe (which they aren't), they just don't want to. This is what makes joining the Tau Empire so attractive to human planets under the cruel rulership of the Imperium. This is why Pech joined it after Tau helped the Kroot against Orks without asking questions or demanding anything. This is why a Kroot became a general in the Tau Empire army and Vespids are seen as equals within the army.

BTW we know almost nothing about the economic system of the Tau, except that there are something like classes: The worker class, the military class, the political/administrative class, the transport class and the religious class. And that the Tau are interested in a free trade and scientific exchange between planets.